Random Thoughts About ASOIAF

[SeanF]

26 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

He said in an interview that he wants readers to feel horny when he describes a love scene just like they feel hungry when he describes a feast. I'm definitely not an expert when it comes to that stuff, but I don't think it has the effect he intended.

I like the food porn.

But, I don’t get turned on by the fat pink mast or Myrish swamp.

[AlaskanSandman]

39 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

He said in an interview that he wants readers to feel horny when he describes a love scene just like they feel hungry when he describes a feast. I'm definitely not an expert when it comes to that stuff, but I don't think it has the effect he intended.

Yea i think in most other things, he's really good at placing you in the scene with his descriptions. Not so much on the sex stuff though haha

[The Bard of Banefort]

I actually think George is very good at writing the emotional aspects of romance, just not the sexual ones. There’s a reason why non-sexual (so far) ships like Jaime/Brienne, Sansa/Sandor, and Arya/Gendry are more popular than the sexual ones. And the sexual ships that are popular are ones like Rhaegar/Lyanna and Loras/Renly, where we never saw any of their romantic scenes together.

Edited April 8, 2022 by The Bard of Banefort

[The Bard of Banefort]

By the way, this is something that was discussed in depth in the “Is George a bad writer?” threads, especially the first one.

[Nevets]

I think worldbuilding has always been regarded as a weak spot in the series.  Westeros is too damn big.  It's probably part of why he is so vague about distances and the passage of time.  He prefers to obfuscate instead of facing things head on.

18 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I actually think George is very good at writing the emotional aspects of romance, just not the sexual ones. There’s a reason why non-sexual (so far) ships like Jaime/Brienne, Sansa/Sandor, and Arya/Gendry are more popular than the sexual ones. And the sexual ships that are popular are ones like Rhaegar/Lyanna and Loras/Gendry, where we never saw any of their romantic scenes together.

I thought most ships were non-sexual.  That is kind of the point, imagining which pairings might get romantic or sexual.  By the way, I assume you meant to say Loras/Renly.  I doubt he knows Gendry even exists.  And Gendry isn't his type. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Nevets

[The Young Maester]

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

but Italy and Spain being cut from Tolkiens map likely cause he hated the Latin influence that ruined Old English, which he loved.

This is interesting, I never knew this. So Tolkien disliked what the Middle English and modern English became. And would prefer that the Latin language wouldve never influenced Old English.

If Normans never invaded or influenced the language. It is likely that modern English would be more similar to Nordic or German. Because I remember reading that old Anglo Saxons could interact in a conversation with the danish. Supposedly the languages weren’t so different.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

I think worldbuilding has always been regarded as a weak spot in the series.  Westeros is too damn big.  It's probably part of why he is so vague about distances and the passage of time.  He prefers to obfuscate instead of facing things head on.

I thought most ships were non-sexual.  That is kind of the point, imagining which pairings might get romantic or sexual.  By the way, I assume you meant to say Loras/Renly.  I doubt he knows Gendry even exists.  And Gendry isn't his type. 

Yes, I meant Renly. Although seeing as Brienne describes Gendry as a mirror image of Renly, he probably is Loras’ type.

[HoodedCrow]

English is a crazy mutt language:) It makes learning and speaking hard, but it grows and you can change a lot with your word choices…there are millions. We have consonant clusters for bite, short words for punch, Latin origin words for heft, Greek words for sophistication, all languages are fair game, and if it is a good word, it will be stolen, used and enjoyed!

[Lord Browndodd]

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This is something ive noticed between GRRM and Tolkien. There is an interview with Tolkien in which he say's he made his maps first, stating that it would be a mess to write the book and create a map after. Something George did. I can see Tolkiens logic as with a map and language set first, writing mustve become much easier. 

For instance. Tolkien pulled from a lot of real world stuff with the Myrkwood being a real mythic place located near Ukraine. The Shire being in England and Mordor being where the Black Sea is and Gondor being roughly the Greeks .As the Gondorians are connected to the Atlantis myth/ Numenor. Numenor likely being pulled from Numitor, one of Romulus and Remus ancestors. With Rome having ties to the Greeks, but Italy and Spain being cut from Tolkiens map likely cause he hated the Latin influence that ruined Old English, which he loved. Plus it simplifies the story, especially not having the Mediterranean sea trade routes.

Now, that all being said. Frodo's journey to Mordor is roughly equivalent to a holy pilgrimage to Jerusalem or a crusade. So his journey is roughly 10-12 miles a day at a years travel. 

Another example is how the Rohirrim come from the North near Dale and is reflected in their linguistics. With people from Dale and The Lonely Mountain having Norse names, while the Rohirrim have names similar to Old English. Like Eowynn, Eomer, Theoden, Hama, and Halfdan. The Distance between these two lands is changed from history though, with the Rohirrim being roughly in the lands that the Goths would've been. Though you do have Theodoric among the Goths, and his name is similar to Theoden. 

 

Martin, working as a gardener, has gardened himself into a few rabbit holes. Though he some how manages to hold a large part of it together, likely through the aid of Elio and Linda. Or else we would have horses changing sex ocnstantly and peoples eye colors constantly changing. Something they pointed out to him before.

With all these other narratives (Yiti, Dunk and Egg, Fire and Blood 2, and i can't remember what all else), I worry about not just ASOIAF, but of those stories as well. I could see the Dunk and Egg show passing his books just like ASOIAF did. 

As an aspiring writer, its something I try to avoid by taking the time to build my world, maps, languages, and history before completing the main story. Or else id be in the same pickle as George or worse, as im no gardener and couldn't wing it like him.

Just a few thoughts from this - apologies for failing to format this properly, the software is not behaving itself today...

Mediterranean - whatever he felt about the language, the chapters set in Ithilien suggest he either loved the landscape there from personal experience or he had a good idea why it might appeal to an Englishman.  There's also a surprisingly good analogy for Cirith Ungol hidden away in the southern French Alps - I do wonder if he visited it, or more likely heard about it.

Eomer was the possibly mythical founder of the Angle royal house of Mercia.  The Visigothic king Theodoric met a very similar end to Theoden.  The Gothic language is not too far removed from Old English - I'm an English speaker with limited knowledge of German, and whilst I certainly could not translate a Gothic text, I do have a sense of what it is saying - far more so than Danish or Swedish, for example.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

This is interesting, I never knew this. So Tolkien disliked what the Middle English and modern English became. And would prefer that the Latin language wouldve never influenced Old English.

If Normans never invaded or influenced the language. It is likely that modern English would be more similar to Nordic or German. Because I remember reading that old Anglo Saxons could interact in a conversation with the danish. Supposedly the languages weren’t so different.

IMHO both French, as the language of literature, and Latin as the language of the Church, would have grown in prestige in England, even if Harold had won.  And sooner or later, an English king would have gained territory in France, through marriage or conquest.

[AlaskanSandman]

11 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

This is interesting, I never knew this. So Tolkien disliked what the Middle English and modern English became. And would prefer that the Latin language wouldve never influenced Old English.

If Normans never invaded or influenced the language. It is likely that modern English would be more similar to Nordic or German. Because I remember reading that old Anglo Saxons could interact in a conversation with the danish. Supposedly the languages weren’t so different.

Yea he talks about it in the appendixes or opening letter to his editor, i can't remember which. He used a little of Latin and Greek linguistic features to do with structure for his Quenya language, but mostly Quenya was inspired by Finnish, while Sindarin was inspired by Celtic. 

As for Old English, some examples of replaced words are Tungol, for Star. Became Steorra from Latin/French. Or Fell for Mountain which in Norse would be Fjall. The Norse and Old English definitely would have understood each other better than modern shows depict them, like Vikings. Germanic languages are pretty close with German being the most distinct due to the High German sounds shifts. So Day, would be Dagr in Norse, and Daeg in Old English, but Tag in German. Like in Guttentag, 

Though some Latin and French words are similar to Germanic ones as each came from Proto Indo European. Where as Hungarian and Finnish are language isolates that didn't come from Proto Indo European, but actually are Uralic. Possibly predating the Indo European spread, as Basque also predates P.i.e.  So Tolkien was essentially saying those older languages came from the Elves, but got muddied with time by Sindar Elves and men till they resembled Celtic and Germanic dialects.

Edited April 9, 2022 by AlaskanSandman

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, Lord Browndodd said:

Just a few thoughts from this - apologies for failing to format this properly, the software is not behaving itself today...

Mediterranean - whatever he felt about the language, the chapters set in Ithilien suggest he either loved the landscape there from personal experience or he had a good idea why it might appeal to an Englishman.  There's also a surprisingly good analogy for Cirith Ungol hidden away in the southern French Alps - I do wonder if he visited it, or more likely heard about it.

Eomer was the possibly mythical founder of the Angle royal house of Mercia.  The Visigothic king Theodoric met a very similar end to Theoden.  The Gothic language is not too far removed from Old English - I'm an English speaker with limited knowledge of German, and whilst I certainly could not translate a Gothic text, I do have a sense of what it is saying - far more so than Danish or Swedish, for example.

Well he was veryyy inspired by Greek. The Blessed Isle of Elysium matches that of Tir na nOg found in Celtic myth, that to the west lay undying lands of the gods. With Numenor matching Atlantis (Likely inspired by Numitor, ancestor to Romulus and Remus of Rome. All who come from Aeneas of the Trojan war. Rome likely being originally a Greek colony that broke away.) With a touch of Lyoness slipping under the ocean waves one night inspiration. 

And Gothic to my knowledge preserves the Germanic language before the shortening of many words. Like the dropping of z in Germanic languages. 

Compare Waranos from Proto Indo European (Reconstructed) to Ouranos from Ancient Greece (Uranus in Latin) to that of Wodanaz in Old German. Wodanaz becoming Woden in Old English, Wotan in German, and eventually worn down the smallest in Norse with Odin. Odin and Uranus are cognates. 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well he was veryyy inspired by Greek. The Blessed Isle of Elysium matches that of Tir na nOg found in Celtic myth, that to the west lay undying lands of the gods. With Numenor matching Atlantis (Likely inspired by Numitor, ancestor to Romulus and Remus of Rome. All who come from Aeneas of the Trojan war. Rome likely being originally a Greek colony that broke away.) With a touch of Lyoness slipping under the ocean waves one night inspiration. 

And Gothic to my knowledge preserves the Germanic language before the shortening of many words. Like the dropping of z in Germanic languages. 

Compare Waranos from Proto Indo European (Reconstructed) to Ouranos from Ancient Greece (Uranus in Latin) to that of Wodanaz in Old German. Wodanaz becoming Woden in Old English, Wotan in German, and eventually worn down the smallest in Norse with Odin. Odin and Uranus are cognates. 

Interesting, thanks.

Tolkien generally disliked imperialism and was no great admirer of its Roman variant.  OTOH, he seems to have liked the Eastern Empire, and modelled Gondor off it, in some respects.  

[AlaskanSandman]

19 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Interesting, thanks.

Tolkien generally disliked imperialism and was no great admirer of its Roman variant.  OTOH, he seems to have liked the Eastern Empire, and modelled Gondor off it, in some respects.  

Well Gondor seems to be roughly located where Istanbul/Constantinople would be and was sacked and controlled by the Germans at one time when Germans controlled most of Europe following the Roman Collapse. The Haradrim seem modeled on the Middle East. With the Haradrim and Gondorians being descendants of Atlantis/Numenor. The United Kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor having parallels in the Romans Churches East and West halves, or the Two Kingdoms of Israel and Judah. As most Europeans dynasties tried to link them selves to the ancient biblical tales such as British Israelism. Im not sure Tolkiens feelings on the real world idea, but seems to be going for a similar idea in his story telling though.

A missed Opportunity I find though is the location of Nain, Israel and the association that could've been made to the Norse dwarf Nainn from the Völuspá. Given that Durinn in myth was known for relocating the Dwarves. It would've fit to have a Dwarven kingdom in the south that Durinn led some of his people from to the Northern lands. Specially given the association of the word Elf to Alb, meaning white, found in words like the Alban kingdoms of Scottland and Italy. Alban with its root Alb meaning white, is similar to the Semitic/Phoenician word for white or milk, Laban. Also where the Lebanon mountains get their name, for the snow white peaks. Same reason the Alps got their name from the same root of Alb. Alb became Alv in German then becoming Alf in Norse and Aelf in Old English. Becoming Elf in modern English. The Dwarves are among the Alfar, as was Gandalf, so listed in the Völuspá.    

[AlaskanSandman]

14 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

This is interesting, I never knew this. So Tolkien disliked what the Middle English and modern English became. And would prefer that the Latin language wouldve never influenced Old English.

If Normans never invaded or influenced the language. It is likely that modern English would be more similar to Nordic or German. Because I remember reading that old Anglo Saxons could interact in a conversation with the danish. Supposedly the languages weren’t so different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_constructed_by_J._R._R._Tolkien#Mannish_languages

• Lô- / loh- corresponding to Anglo-Saxon éoh, "war-horse", and the derived names Lôgrad for "Horse-Mark", and Lohtûr for Éothéod, "horse-people". This word is an exact homonym of the Hungarian word for "horse", ló. The Rohirric word for "horse" has been identified as a cognate for Tolkien's Elvish words for "horse": rocco (Quenya) and roch (Sindarin). All names beginning with Éo- supposedly represent Rohirric names beginning with Lô- or Loh-, but the Rohirric forms of names such as Éomer and Éowyn are not given.^[5]

 

 

An example of Tolkiens work process. So in Elvish, inspired by Finnish/Hungarian, horse is Loh/Lo. The People of Rohan speak a language inspired by the Elves, that Tolkien then translates into an English corresponding Name with the root Eo for Horse. Eo descending phonetically from Lo. Even though in the real world Eo descends from a different origin. This is one such process for his conlang creation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf:_The_Monsters_and_the_Critics

Tolkien wrote a book about Beowulf and did a translation of the Book. Pulling some names like Theoden, Hama, and Halfdan from Beowulf. He was a big lover of Old English.

Dainn, Durinn, Dwalin, Gandalf, Frodo and the like are all from the Norse sagas.

My favorite one though is Fearon from Norman French meaning a smith of Iron. Im assuming is what inspired my favorite Elf, Feanor, the "Spirit of Fire" who forged the Silmarils. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Did Jaqen just take on Pate's face, or did he completely transform into him, T-1000-style? Height, voice, etc... Given that nobody in Oldtown noticed the difference, I guess it might be the latter. 

[James Arryn]

1 hour ago, Crazy Old Guy said:

Okay, weird thought (more related to the fanbase than to A Song of Ice and Fire):

...Whatever happened to E-Ro?

...Hell, how many "old guard" members on "A Forum of Ice and Fire" are still here?

Yeah. Sorry. Long-time lurker here.

I think E-Ro challenged everyone who defied the divinity of Bobby B/Stannis to a powerlift duel and was last seen trying to carve a giant warhammer out of osmium. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by James Arryn

[The Bard of Banefort]

Damn I don’t even remember E-Ro. I guess he was before my time.

Whatever happened to The Fattest Leech? 

I don’t know if he was ever on here, but BryndenBFish deleted all his accounts. I’m not sure what happened there.

As grateful as I am that the show is over, I do miss gotgifsandmusings. She was a damn good time.

Ahhh do you see what you did to the fandom, George?! 

Edited April 9, 2022 by The Bard of Banefort

[Nevets]

4 hours ago, Crazy Old Guy said:

Okay, weird thought (more related to the fanbase than to A Song of Ice and Fire):

...Whatever happened to E-Ro?

...Hell, how many "old guard" members on "A Forum of Ice and Fire" are still here?

Yeah. Sorry. Long-time lurker here.

Define "old guard".  I've been here since 2015; not sure if that counts, but the few posters I remember from back then I haven't seen lately. 

[Nevets]

13 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Did Jaqen just take on Pate's face, or did he completely transform into him, T-1000-style? Height, voice, etc... Given that nobody in Oldtown noticed the difference, I guess it might be the latter. 

I suspect it is probably just the face.   When Jaqen changed for Arya, there were changes to his head and face, but nothing else was mentioned.  No changes in height or physique for example.  And when Arya got her face to kill the insurance broker, it was one suitable for her age and sex (and physique).  Also, being able to change the whole body would be too easy.  That's not really Martin's style.