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Random Thoughts About ASOIAF


The Bard of Banefort
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Baratheon women never become queens. Jocelyn’s husband died before assuming the crown, Aegon II died before wedding Cassandra, and Duncan ditched a different Cassandra for Jenny of Oldstones.

Speaking of which, was it first revealed that Jenny was Duncan’s wife in TWOIAF?

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28 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Since I was the last to post here a few weeks ago, I was waiting the whole time for somebody else to post here before asking my question today, but no one did. Oh, well...

I actually did post on here about a week ago but mods took it down :unsure:

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I actually did post on here about a week ago but mods took it down :unsure:

Ah, I see. It's just that I spent many years at the Theforce.net forums, and over there people weren't allowed to post twice in a row, they had to wait before someone else posted. I know this doesn't apply here, but I still haven't got rid of those reflexes. :blush:

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This could probably be its own topic, but it would likely lead to some bickering, so I'll just share it here. I really disagree with the notion that the Ironborn are comparable to the Confederacy/post-Civil War South. Both before and after the war, the southern states had representation in government. They also had thousands of acres of fertile land. The Ironborn don't have shit. Hardly anything grows on the islands, and the Iron Throne never did anything to bring them into the realm after Aegon I. No council seats, no royal progresses, no marriage alliances. Worst of all is how once the Dornish joined the Seven Kingdoms, the number didn't change to Eight--the Ironborn were just booted from all iconography in favor of the Dornish, despite having been part of the realm for two hundred years. The fact that they stayed loyal for as long as they did is pretty incredible, all things considered. 

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This could probably be its own topic, but it would likely lead to some bickering, so I'll just share it here.

Woah! We could still bicker here ;)

 

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I really disagree with the notion that the Ironborn are comparable to the Confederacy/post-Civil War South.

Yea me too, I've never heard that before. What do people say are the similarities?

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Both before and after the war, the southern states had representation in government.

Well, not immediately before. That was the whole issue, north was becoming overwhelming and Lincoln ran, and won (with 0 southern votes, not even on the ballot lol) on a no more slave state platform.

And certainly not directly after, southern politicians were barred from like becoming senators and such (they kept not letting black people vote so Washington politically ignored them for like a decade)

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

They also had thousands of acres of fertile land. The Ironborn don't have shit.

I guess? Union burned lots of it. And the islands got resources, hence the name Iron islands 

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

and the Iron Throne never did anything to bring them into the realm after Aegon I. No council seats, no royal progresses, no marriage alliances

Well that just means theyre not profiting off the prosperity and wellbeing of their nation. (Because, you know, they pay the iron price)

The Ironborn didn't even outlaw their thralls, but Westeros lets em rock. It helps the the children of thralls are freeborn citizens able to fully participant in their local government, something the south has a hard time of comparing itself with.

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Worst of all is how once the Dornish joined the Seven Kingdoms, the number didn't change to Eight--the Ironborn were just booted from all iconography in favor of the Dornish, despite having been part of the realm for two hundred years.

I feel even worse for Dragonstone, their not even in the conversation 

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The fact that they stayed loyal for as long as they did is pretty incredible, all things considered. 

Idk why any of them are still around 

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Some DotD thoughts:

Corlys chose to legitimize his “grandsons” as his heirs rather than have his not-grandson Joffrey be his heir. . . but he also passed over his 100% trueborn granddaughters in the process. By doing so, he chose the heir that did not descend from his departed wife, Rhaenys. Addam and Alyn may have publicly been acknowledged as Laenor’s bastards, but Corly knew better. It’s a shame he preferred erasing his wife’s memory over having a female heir (at this point, Corlys had no way of knowing that Alyn and Baela would eventually wed).

We’re told that Viserys was an amiable peacemaker, and I wonder if this was the product of him having grown up around so much tragedy. After Aemon’s death, Jaehaerys and Alysanne only had Baelon, Viserys, Daemon, Gael, and Rhaenys around. Then Jaehaerys alienated Rhaenys and he lost Gael and Alysanne. So by the time of his death, the only family Jaehaerys had left to comfort him was Viserys and his wife and daughter (I doubt Daemon was much of a comfort). I can see how Viserys would have started trying to placate and comfort people from an early age, first his father after Alyssa’s death, then his grandparents. He had to fill the hole left by eleven dead children. It also explains why he couldn’t bring himself to get rid of Daemon.

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3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Some DotD thoughts:

Corlys chose to legitimize his “grandsons” as his heirs rather than have his not-grandson Joffrey be his heir. . . but he also passed over his 100% trueborn granddaughters in the process. By doing so, he chose the heir that did not descend from his departed wife, Rhaenys. Addam and Alyn may have publicly been acknowledged as Laenor’s bastards, but Corly knew better. It’s a shame he preferred erasing his wife’s memory over having a female heir (at this point, Corlys had no way of knowing that Alyn and Baela would eventually wed).

I don't think Corlys meant to be sexist here. It is obvious Corlys loved Rhaenys, and he fought for her and Laena's claims at the Great Council of 101, not Laenor's. Was he faithful to Rhaenys? Seems like he wasn't, which again takes away from his good attributes.

But the thing is, Driftmark's heir had always been Laenor, who was younger than Laena. And the reason was his sex. As such, it is clear that House Velaryon, and the lordship of Driftmark had an established form of succession: Male only. Note that the extended Velaryon family was displeased with Corlys for legitimizing Alyn and Addam, but also with the illegitimacy of Laenor's sons, because it stripped them of the Lordship of Driftmark, not Baela or Rhaena. 

I personally would've loved if there were female rulers of the Iron Throne (I still don't get why Rhaenyra wasn't later aknowledged as Queen) and Driftmark, but male only succession resembles history. Just think of the french succession, the salic law.

Now of course, there are weird situations, such as Sansa having a truer claim to Winterfell than really distant branches of House Stark, but when females inherit, usually their descendants keep the maternal house name for themselves. Think of the Lannisters. It's for legitimacy. But also think of Alys Karstark, who is clearly the heir of Lord Rickard, despite having a living brother and nephew, who, of course, want to force Alys into a marriage with Cregan Karstark.

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On 6/28/2022 at 10:22 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

Now of course, there are weird situations, such as Sansa having a truer claim to Winterfell than really distant branches of House Stark, but when females inherit, usually their descendants keep the maternal house name for themselves. Think of the Lannisters. It's for legitimacy. But also think of Alys Karstark, who is clearly the heir of Lord Rickard, despite having a living brother and nephew, who, of course, want to force Alys into a marriage with Cregan Karstark.

Maybe there is a clause in the law that lets Houses follow their own rules of inheritance to a certain degree? So if a house has always passed over the females, they can continue to do so even though official law states that a daughter comes before a nephew or cousin. 

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1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yeah, the fandom hasn't really been the same without BFish, IMO.

I wonder what happened to him? At first I thought he got cancelled, then I heard he had decided to quit social media. There was also a rumor that someone with inside knowledge told him that Winds will never be published, which prompted him to quit the fandom, but that’s probably bunk.

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I always wondered why there's no mention of the Tullys at the Tourney of Harrenhal. Most of the great houses were there: Baratheon, Stark, Martell, Arryn, Tyrell. Tywin and Aerys broke up so the Lannister weren't there, but what about the Tullys? The were the Lords of the Riverlands they are supposed to be there.

Edited by Odej
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4 hours ago, Odej said:

I always wondered why there's no mention of the Tullys at the Tourney of Harrenhal. Most of the great houses were there: Baratheon, Stark, Martell, Arryn, Tyrell. Tywin and Aerys broke up so the Lannister weren't there, but what about the Tullys? The were the Lords of the Riverlands they are supposed to be there.

I assume that they were doing same thing that they did during 2nd Blackfyre Rebellion. Or forces loyal to Targs included a dudette in skintight black armor. But none Tullys.

Quote

From Maidenpool had come Lord Mooton, from Raventree Lord Blackwood, from Duskendale Lord Darklyn. The royal demenses about King's Landing sent forth Hayfords, Rosbys, Stokeworths, Masseys, and the king's own sworn swords, led by three knights of the Kingsguard and stiffened by three hundred Raven's Teeth with tall white weirwood bows. Mad Danelle Lothston herself rode forth in strength from her haunted towers at Harrenhal, clad in black armor that fit her like an iron glove, her long red hair streaming. The light of the rising sun glittered off the points of five hundred lances and ten times as many spears. The night's grey banners were reborn in half a hundred gaudy colors. And above them all flew two regal dragons on night-black fields: the great three-headed beast of King Aerys I Targaryen, red as fire, and a white winged fury breathing scarlet flame. Not Maekar after all, Dunk knew, when he saw those banners. The banners of the Prince of Summerhall showed four three-headed dragons, two and two, the arms of the fourth-born son of the late King Daeron II Targaryen. A single white dragon announced the presence of the King's Hand, Lord Brynden Rivers.

The Mystery Knight

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On 7/8/2022 at 2:38 AM, Odej said:

I always wondered why there's no mention of the Tullys at the Tourney of Harrenhal. Most of the great houses were there: Baratheon, Stark, Martell, Arryn, Tyrell. Tywin and Aerys broke up so the Lannister weren't there, but what about the Tullys? The were the Lords of the Riverlands they are supposed to be there.

In fact, no house from the Riverlands was present at the tourney.

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1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

In fact, no house from the Riverlands was present at the tourney.

They aren't mentioned as being there.  It doesn't mean they weren't.  The only accounts I can remember are Meera's story and a brief bit in the World Book.  Neither account is about the Tullys so there's no reason to mention them.  Given that Hoster's wife, who is the mother of the Tully children, was a Whent from Harrenhal, I would expect they were there.  Just not important enough to the story to be mentioned.

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10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’m finally doing the combined Feast/Dance read, and I never realized how many references there are to crowning Myrcella in both books. It makes me think that she will briefly follow her brother on the throne before the city falls to Aegon.

Oberyn talked about crowning Myrcella even in ASOS.

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On 6/8/2022 at 11:41 AM, Lady Misery said:

How come that the whole of Westeros speaks only one language? Like, shouldn't a continent of that size have more variants? Yes, the Andals brought their language with them when the conquered the South but that was millenia ago and did not extent to the North and the Iron Islands and certainly not to the Lands beyond the Wall. So why does everyone speak Common? I mean, Germany and France don't have the same language either and all that seperates those countries is a river, instead of the 1500+ miles between Dorne and the North. 

It would make a lot more sense if there were three or four (maybe more) different languages strone across the continent, with some overlap in the border regions. Particularly since some of the kingdoms are fairly isolated. Dorne is cut of from the Stromlands and the Reach by the Red Mountains. The Vale has the Mountains of the Moon and the North has the Neck. Even if all the kingdoms had at one point spoken just one language, it should have evolved into different variants over the several millenia we know Westeros has been inhabited. 

Yes, that is a very good point. I have also thought about that sometimes, but since one half thinks about Westeros as a version of Europe and half thinks about it as a version of Britain, and since it's written from an English-speaking English/American perspective, one doesn't really think about that.

It would make sense for at least the North and possibly the Iron Islands to speak the Old Tongue, since they are First Men. I guess that somehow the Andals' language, the Common Tongue, slowly and gradually took over all across Westeros, but yes, precisely, that really doesn't make much sense. There isn't even that much trade between The North and the other kingdoms. But maybe the few great all-Westerosi things such as the Night's Watch and the maesters actually are a decent reason for that. If the maesters all were trained in Oldtown, the center for education of the entire contintent, like some specific universities were in Medieval Europe, then the Common Tongue of the Reach would have spread with the maesters and if the lords relied heavily on their maesters, then over time they would begin to speak more of the common tongue with their maesters, and then with the lower servants and smallfolk of the keep, and so forth... But yes, it's still strange.

------

A reasonable version of the three or four different languages across Westeros, like you mention, based on its history and geography, might look something like this:

The North - The Old Tongue/The Northern Tongue. (The "true"/most original version of the Old Tongue, since it has been in isolation the most and retained the culture of the First Men.

The Iron Islands - The Iron Tongue. (A slightly different version/accent of the Old Tongue, somewhat influenced by the Andals that came into the Iron Islands, maybe with some few specific loan words from thralls and so forth.)

The South (The Vale, The Riverlands, The Westerlands, The Reach, The Stormlands) - The Common Tongue. (The Andals' language, with some distinct accents/dialects for each kingdom, but still similar enough to be considered one single language. This is due to significant trade and the lack of strong geographical boundaries, the center of education around Oldtown in The Reach and so forth.)

The Hill Tribes of the Vale - The Mountain/Hill Tongue. (The First Men hill tribes, as the last isolated population of First Men remaining in the South, would probably have their own distinct dialect of the Old Tongue from several thousands and thousands of years ago and retaining it due to their relative isolation.)

Blackwater Bay - High Valyrian. (Not necessarily that impactful, due to the very small population of Valyrian noble houses, but still, considering the status of the language it might have spread throughout Dragonstone, Driftmark, Claw Isle and so forth, and especially in King's Landing if at least a few of the Targaryens would speak it to a certain degree at court and it could spread to courtiers, traders, dragonseeds and among the common smallfolk of the Blackwater.

Dorne - The Common Tongue & Rhoynish. (Maybe like 70 % of the population, especially the stony and sandy dornishmen speaking The Common Tongue, but many of the salty dornishmen still speaking Rhoynish.)

...

(Even within this, there would also be a few further specific languages and dialects within kingdoms and so forth.)

Edited by Adam Targaryen
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