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Random Thoughts About ASOIAF


The Bard of Banefort
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To be fair, using real history to justify ASOIAF characters is a double-edged sword. Tywin and Robert killing Rhaegar’s kids could be justified the same way. Henry Tudor left a bunch of Plantagenets alive when he took the throne, and he ended up having to kill them all later on, even after he married Elizabeth of York and produced half-Plantagenet heirs.

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  • 3 weeks later...

We got some new info from the Cushing Library.

2003 draft:

Quote

"How old is Jorella Mormont?" he demanded.
Jon had to think a moment. "Ten or twelve, Your Grace. She is the youngest of Lady Maege's daughters."

"An insolent whelp in need of a hiding, I'd call her" Stannis read from the letter. "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK." He crushed the paper in his fist. "The girl presumes to shout at me."

Published version:

Quote
 “Rise. Tell me, who is Lyanna Mormont?”
“One of Lady Maege’s daughters, Sire. The youngest. She was named for my lord father’s sister.”
“To curry your lord father’s favor, I don’t doubt. I know how that game is played. How old is this wretched girl child?”
Jon had to think a moment. “Ten. Or near enough to make no matter. Might I know how she has offended Your Grace?” Stannis read from the letter. “ ‘Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK.’ A girl of ten, you say, and she presumes to scold her lawful king.”

As @Lord Varys pointed out in another thread, GRRM rarely produces his best work in his first draft, so it's good that he really polishes thing up. I just wish it didn't take so long. :bawl:

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On 9/21/2022 at 11:52 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Well, there are some hints,clues, leads whatever about Jon's Targaryen name possibly being Aemon. For starters, he can't be Aegon since Rhaegar already had an Aegon as a son.

Well, George Foreman named most of his boys George so there is precedent for it.

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17 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

As @Lord Varys pointed out in another thread, GRRM rarely produces his best work in his first draft, so it's good that he really polishes thing up. I just wish it didn't take so long. :bawl:

Wow, that's a really glaring example. The prose is completely off in the early, and Stannis is effectively talking out of character.

You can also turn to FaB for this, especially the earlier version of TSotD which was published. George rewriting parts of it and fleshing out the character of Rhaena more made the whole thing much better. He certainly should have rewritten all of it to add more complexity to the Dance and, especially, Viserys' reign ... not to mention getting rid of weirdo stuff like where the hell Jaehaerys and Alysanne hid with their huge dragons during Maegor's reign. But you also see there that a first or second draft isn't really all that great.

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6 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I'm not sure I agree with you here. I think he's saying basically the same thing, only in a more refined way.

The skinning metaphor is too much. Also, him interpreting a capitalized 'STARK' as the girl shouting at him is way too modernistic.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The skinning metaphor is too much. Also, him interpreting a capitalized 'STARK' as the girl shouting at him is way too modernistic.

Well, to each their own. I'm glad that he changed the name Jorella to Lyanna, though. Apparently, she was also named Margaery Mormont in a different draft.   

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  • 5 weeks later...

one of the best qualities of Oberyn Martell is his loyalty and love for his family. yet, if we were to blame one person for their tragedies, we reach Oberyn who fucks them all up with two simple acts: mocking Baelor Hightower and killing lord Yornwood!

see..

  •  After she doesn't marry Baelor, Elia marries Rhaegar , leading to her death. 
  • Doran has to promise his son to Yornwoods in exchange for Oberyn's action, destroying his relationship with Mellario. 
  • Arianne and Quentyn have a nonexistent relationship because he had to be sent to Yornwood.
  • Arianne's relationship with both Doran and Quentyn is affected because Doran cooked up a super secret plan in order to avenge Elia who wouldn't have been dead if she was married to Baelor Hightower!
  • Arianne might screw Dorne up because she apparently lacks the proper education to rule over Dorne since Doran had prepared her to be Queen of 7k instead of the princess of Dorne. 

 

 

if only our favorite rogue prince was more cautious! 

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On 3/12/2022 at 8:04 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I think he used the pieces to build graves for his fallen companions. That part I understand, I'm more baffled by the technical aspect of things.

Maybe set it on fire with nearby trees/branches and  use the horses to  help drag what remains down with the supports burnt away.

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  • 2 months later...
On 12/28/2022 at 10:28 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

To be fair, using real history to justify ASOIAF characters is a double-edged sword. Tywin and Robert killing Rhaegar’s kids could be justified the same way. Henry Tudor left a bunch of Plantagenets alive when he took the throne, and he ended up having to kill them all later on, even after he married Elizabeth of York and produced half-Plantagenet heirs.

Murdering children (leaving aside its immorality) does ensure that they need never trouble you in the future.  Of course, it does ensure that your own children will be murdered if fortune turns against you.

I think that the (likely) capture of Kings Landing will see Tommen, Myrcella, and Margaery all meet very cruel ends.

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On 4/18/2023 at 6:51 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Was Maekar the king with the most grandchildren? I’m thinking he must have been, since his sons had seven kids between them, and Maester Aemon mentioned that his sisters also had children of their own.

Probably not. Aenys had 12 (Jaehaerys and Alysanne's 10 suriving children, plus the two daughters of Rhaena).

But if you accept bastard grandchildren the winner would be Aegon IV: He had 4 Targaryen grandchildren, plus all the Dornish children from Danaerys, plus the surely big offspring that his dozens of bastards produced.

Edited by The hairy bear
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  • 4 months later...
15 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Did we ever find out who sent Mandon Moore after Tyrion? If so, then I completely missed it.

I don't think it was ever explicitly confirmed but my feeling was that it was Cersei, since she wanted to get rid of Tyrion and would have had the authority to do so. She was not above putting the defence of the City in jeopardy for her own desires, as seen with removing Joffrey from the frontlines which caused moral to fall.

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  • 4 weeks later...
Quote

On 6 August 1996, HarperCollins published a book it expected to sell around 5,000 copies in hardback. A tour in the US to mark publication of the novel, A Game of Thrones, saw “modest” turnouts of readers, admits its author George RR Martin. At one stop-off, in St Louis, that number fell to zero.

Did HarperCollins expect 5000 copies in lifetime total sales for AGoT? That seems quite low even for the time period. 

@Werthead Am I missing something here?

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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22 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Did HarperCollins expect 5000 copies in lifetime total sales for AGoT? That seems quite low even for the time period. 

@Werthead Am I missing something here?

5,000 in UK hardcover sales for a new book from a very low-profile (in the UK) author was actually quite high. For contrast, The Lies of Locke Lamora, a probably comparatively more massively-trailed, massively-hyped book ten years later (when the market was deemed to be significantly bigger), sold 15,000 copies in hardcover and tradeback and that was deemed a very big hit.

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2 hours ago, Werthead said:

For contrast, The Lies of Locke Lamora, a probably comparatively more massively-trailed, massively-hyped book ten years later (when the market was deemed to be significantly bigger), sold 15,000 copies in hardcover and tradeback and that was deemed a very big hit.

Although The Lies of Locke Lamora was Scott Lynch's debut novel, while GRRM had been an established author for many years by the time AGOT was published.

Maybe Sanderson's The Way of Kings would be a better comparison?

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15 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Although The Lies of Locke Lamora was Scott Lynch's debut novel, while GRRM had been an established author for many years by the time AGOT was published.

Maybe Sanderson's The Way of Kings would be a better comparison?

Recall this was HarperCollins in the UK (GRRM's US publisher was and remains Random House/Del Rey). GRRM's UK profile was much lower than in the USA. Wild Cards had never taken off here (the first three books had been picked up but the series had sold poorly and the rest of the series was not published, and would not be until the 2010s) and most of GRRM's earlier work was out of print.

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