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Ukraine: It’s starting…


Ser Scot A Ellison

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1 hour ago, GrimTuesday said:

Wait, is putting bases on the borders of a rival nation a provocative move?

You miss all the points that are being made.  We know exactly about what this means because we do live w/in one of those nations which has been doing this ever since in Cuba in the 1898 Spanish American War -- and lets not forget the Panama Canal.  We still have Guantánamo.  Russia has been coming back into Cuba massively ever since Putin's trumpista lapdogs destroyed Obama's rapprochement policies. The bloodletting won't stop with eastern Ukraine, and it won't stop 90 miles from our coastline, that trump, who has been cultivated by the Russians since the 1980's, is responsible for.  Putin's investment has paid off in the biggest bonanza for him possible.  While all of us in the US play video games, Putin plays chess, and his pawn performed exactly as he was supposed to.

So many of us have objected to US policies in these matters -- including Guantánamo, for so many reasons.  You think we're blind to how all this has been used -- any more than we're blinded to how Putin & other authoritarian tyrants have used this? If we were we'd be crowing and setting off fireworks to celebrate the coming bloodbath.

Which some posters here are doing, by the way.  Trolls come out to play, to play, today.

 

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2 hours ago, Mr Fixit said:

I also still believe that this is unfortunately a culmination of 30 years of geopolitical blunders on all sides. 

You would never say all sides are at fault if the US today invaded and tried to annex Cuba or any other country for that matter.

Putin is a big boy he doesn’t have to invade Ukraine if he didn’t want that sweet, sweet natural gas.

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2 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Has your opinion, considering the current situation, changed?

I'm very much a give it 72 hours kind of person.  Hot takes are the easiest to hack.  Mapwise, there might be more incentive for Russia to get land access from the north to Crimea, though I think they have access from the sochi area of the NE black sea.

But why is this a Russian priority now?  Other things besides POTUS have changed, what do you think is the differentiating factor?

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’m seeing Russian Trolls claiming “all Putin wants are the majority’Russian Speaking’ areas of Ukraine”.  Could he pattern himself a little more like the last dictator looking for Sudetenland?

 

Well the facial hair is different. 

Though looking at a map of languages in Ukraine, it's mostly Ukrainian, with Crimea and a bit of the southeast majority Russian.  TBH I didn't realize Ukranian was different from Russian linguistically.  Assumed it was different dialects but same language.  The center of power there switched from Kiev to Moscow after the Mongols went through, and then bounced from Muscovy to St Petersburg to Moscow, as far as I know.  But Kiev and Moscow have been linked politically more often than not the last 7 centuries, haven't they?  Which is not to say Putin should take Kiev...

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Is it my fault Putin is behaving like another tin potted dictator?

Give Trudeau a break, his hair is awesome.  Sure his cossacks ran over that one first nations elder, but she was a white supremicist anyway and had it coming.  Her fault for throwing in with her upper class trucker overlords.

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18 minutes ago, mcbigski said:

Give Trudeau a break, his hair is awesome.  Sure his cossacks ran over that one first nations elder, but she was a white supremicist anyway and had it coming.  Her fault for throwing in with her upper class trucker overlords.

Pray tell… what the actual fuck that bullshit has to do with Putin ordering Russian boys to go die in Ukraine?

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My continued point, the one you continue to happily ignore, is that Russia is going to keep doing this. Whether you believe them or not, whether you find them truthful or not, none of that matters. What matters is that you can draw a line from behavior of Russia since fucking 1820 to now with respect to Ukraine and see what their geopolitical priorities have been and continue to be.

Now, you can ignore that - you can dismiss Putin as a crazy power-grabber who is unique to Russia. But you'll be wrong, and the next person in charge of Russia, whenever that is, will likely do the same thing.

 

7 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Quack, quack. 

Duck, duck?  Missed something there.  Though I think the cut paste function has gotten more functional, which is nice.

If the Russians put 10k plus ground troops into Ukraine, I'll be surprised, and wrong.  Especially if they stay there longer than weeks.

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12 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You would never say all sides are at fault if the US today invaded and tried to annex Cuba or any other country for that matter.

What an imbecilic statement, just utterly baby brained. Cuba does not have significant backing from Russia the way Ukraine does from the US/NATO or Cuba itself had from the USSR back in the day. These things were in no way comparable.

22 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You miss all the points that are being made.  We know exactly about what this means because we do live w/in one of those nations which has been doing this ever since in Cuba in the 1898 Spanish American War -- and lets not forget the Panama Canal.  We still have Guantánamo.  Russia has been coming back into Cuba massively ever since Putin's trumpista lapdogs destroyed Obama's rapprochement policies. The bloodletting won't stop with eastern Ukraine, and it won't stop 90 miles from our coastline, that trump, who has been cultivated by the Russians since the 1980's, is responsible for.  Putin's investment has paid off in the biggest bonanza for him possible.  While all of us in the US play video games, Putin plays chess, and his pawn performed exactly as he was supposed to.

So many of us have objected to US policies in these matters -- including Guantánamo, for so many reasons.  You think we're blind to how all this has been used -- any more than we're blinded to how Putin & other authoritarian tyrants have used this? If we were we'd be crowing and setting off fireworks to celebrate the coming bloodbath.

Which some posters here are doing, by the way.  Trolls come out to play, to play, today.

 

I mean, it actually goes back to before the Spanish American war, American leaders have seen Cuba as a future American territory since the time of the American revolution, Thomas Jefferson was writing about how America was destined to conquer Cuba in 1806, and that is just what I remember off the top of my head, but I digress. 

Trump's policy on Cuba was not some master plan by Putin, it was standard Republican policy on Cuba. Trump wasn't a puppet, he didn't have to be a puppet. All Putin had to do was let Trump be his normal cruel petty self and react to that.

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8 minutes ago, mcbigski said:

If the Russians put 10k plus ground troops into Ukraine, I'll be surprised, and wrong.  Especially if they stay there longer than weeks.

What do you consider Ukraine? Does that include the separatist provinces?

The man says he is sending in “peacekeepers”

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10 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

What an imbecilic statement, just utterly baby brained. Cuba does not have significant backing from Russia the way Ukraine does from the US/NATO or Cuba itself had from the USSR back in the day. These things were in no way comparable.

the amount of support towards Ukraine from NATO or the US wouldn’t make Ukraine invading Russia a suicide run.

The amount of support Russia has given to Cuba wouldn’t make Cuba invading the US a suicide run.

Neither greater nation can honestly justify their hard imperialism against the country as necessary to protect themselves.

 

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14 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Pray tell… what the actual fuck that bullshit has to do with Putin ordering Russian boys to go die in Ukraine?

I don't think Putin ordered that exactly.  Let's, since we're almost all of us not in SE Ukraine, just take a breath and see where things are in a day or three. 

I'm still of the opinion that at worst we'll see a skirmish, not a 5 figure or more troop invasion of Ukraine. 

 

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@Toth,

Quote

It doesn't really matter anyway, I was mostly just... ineffectively trying to lighten the mood somewhat...

When trying to lighten the mood about the potential new value of your old USSR monies, I'd start here:

 

Or maybe just stop and ask why Vlad has several phones next to his desk that look like they predate the fall of the Soviet Union?

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20 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

What an imbecilic statement, just utterly baby brained. Cuba does not have significant backing from Russia the way Ukraine does from the US/NATO or Cuba itself had from the USSR back in the day. These things were in no way comparable.

Cuba isn't having Russian backing, you naive. It is being held hostage by Russia BECAUSE the USA doesn't allow anybody to trade with Cuba at all for anything through out the world.  Cuba is desperate for everything from the supplies to make medical treatments to oil to power a generator.  Russia has petroleum.

How many Cubans have you spoken with today?  The Cuban people don't like Russia, but they are cut off from the world's economies in every way by the USA. Which has been going on progressively since 1960 until Obama changed things -- for a hot minute. 

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2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Cuba isn't having Russian backing, you naive. It is being held hostage by Russia BECAUSE the USA doesn't allow anybody to trade with Cuba at all for anything through out the world.  Cuba is desperate for everything from the supplies to make medical treatments to oil to power a generator.  Russia has petroleum.

How many Cubans have you spoken with today?  The Cuban people don't like Russia, but they are cut off from the world's economies in every way by the USA. Which has been going on progressively since 1960 until Obama changed things -- for a hot minute. 

We're not in disagreement, at all. The Cuban Russian relationship such as it is, is the direct result of American actions. My response was directly related to the statement by Varysblackfyre321 that we wouldn't be saying both sides suck if the US invaded and annexed Cuba, which is idiotic on its face.

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15 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Even earlier than that.  

Cuba was strategic in the age of coal powered naval ships.  Continued to be in the era of short range nuclear missiles.  Not sure how strategically important it is now.  Sure a quick launch has some tactical value, but really only if Cuba is a sacrificed pawn .  

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33 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Varysblackfyre321 that we wouldn't be saying both sides suck if the US invaded and annexed Cuba, which is idiotic on its face.

Well just mr.fixit.

Though if you think the hypocrisy is fine I do agree your stance is idiotic.

The only people responsible for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine are the oligarchs who rule Russia. No one else. It’s not an all sides bad issue.

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10 hours ago, Mr Fixit said:

Sure. 

Cause there were plenty invaders in history. Not so plenty concentration campers. So when one self-righteously invokes Godwin, it'd be best to show some discernment. 

 

I mean, Scott invoked Hitler in a very specific sense, of the pattern of his invasions. The person who brought up death camps was you. You are aware that WWII didn't start because of the death camps, right? Like once we knew knew about them that was the motivation but the war started because Hitler said he was just looking after Germans in Austria, then he said that he was just looking after the German bits of Czechoslovakia, and then he invaded Poland.

Now sure, I don't think Putin is gonna invade Poland tomorrow, or even in the foreseeable future, but that's because he can't*. For all that he made NATO-based justifications at the end of the speech yesterday, he showed his ass in the rest of it when he talked about how Lenin disadvantaged Russia by letting Ukraine go free and that Russia was robbed when the Soviet Union collapsed. Bar a little practical patter at the end to shine it up, very little of his speech yesterday said that NATO is the primary concern here - it's bitterness over and entitlement to Russia's place as an imperial power.   




*I wonder why Eastern European countries were so keen to join NATO HMMMMMMM 

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