Ukraine: It’s starting…

[GrimTuesday]

3 minutes ago, Week said:

Demilitarize and "denazify"? Wtf? 

I mean, Ukraine does have a problem with neo-nazis and white nationalists and it has been used as propaganda to justify the separatists in the east and the south. Ironically, Russia taking aggressive action in Ukraine is only going to empower and legitimize them.

[Mindwalker]

The first war in Europe since WW II.

 

Never thought I'd see one in my lifetime.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I go to church with Ukrainians and Russians.

[KingintheNorth4]

It sounds like the attacks aren't limited to Eastern Ukraine. This is gonna get ugly quickly.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

18 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The Jewish President of Ukraine… is secretly a Nazi… according to Putin?

Anti-Semitism 101

[Mindwalker]

Fox News source, sorry:

 

[GrimTuesday]

5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The Jewish President of Ukraine… is secretly a Nazi… according to Putin?

Zelensky isn't a Nazi obviously, but Ukraine absolutely has a Nazi problem. Many of their national heroes who were part of the push for Ukrainian Nationalist movement in the early 1900s were Nazi collaborators. These people are venerated in the north and the west, and that has been used to justify the separatists in the south and the east. Beyond that right wing ultra nationalist paramilitary groups such as the Azov Battalion and the Right Sector have been folded into the Ukrainian National guard and have actually been given legitimacy and training by the US and NATO. You may recall the news story about a Ukrainian granny training to defend Ukraine, the group training them was the Azov Battalion. Beyond that, politicians who have links to the Social-National Party of Ukraine, now known as Svoboda have held positions of power, especially in the Poroshenko admin post Crimea where the right saw a significant surge.

To be clear, this does not justify Russia's actions nor does it legitimize Putin's propaganda, just explaining the actual basis that Russia is warping to use in their propaganda.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just now, GrimTuesday said:

Zelensky isn't a Nazi obviously, but Ukraine absolutely has a Nazi problem. Many of their national heroes who were part of the push for Ukrainian Nationalist movement in the early 1900s were Nazi collaborators. These people are venerated in the north and the west, and that has been used to justify the separatists in the south and the east. Beyond that right wing ultra nationalist paramilitary groups such as the Azov Battalion and the Right Sector have been folded into the Ukrainian National guard and have actually been given legitimacy and training by the US and NATO. You may recall the news story about a Ukrainian granny training to defend Ukraine, the group training them was the Azov Battalion. Beyond that, politicians who have links to the Social-National Party of Ukraine, now known as Svoboda have held positions of power, especially in the Poroshenko admin post Crimea where the right saw a significant surge.

To be clear, this does not justify Russia's actions nor does it legitimize Putin's propaganda, just explaining the actual basis that Russia is warping to use in their propaganda.

Is now… really the time?

[Kalbear]

It'll be interesting to see if putin is saying the truth - if the goal is to decapitate the leadership and wipe out the military as he basically has said, or if they will move in after in order to stabilize the nation.

[GrimTuesday]

25 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Is now… really the time?

I mean I get where you are coming from, but there is absolutely some element of truth to that propaganda, and it is important that we be aware of who we are giving legitimacy in the coming days because this is going to give those sorts of groups a larger platform. Shit Fox had a "Ukrainian Activist" on who is the former leader the Odessa branch of Right Sector (a neo Nazi organization) and is a suspect in a murder case.

I get that this situation is fucked, but just saying Zelenski is Jewish and dismissing this as mere propaganda is not going to stop ultra nationalist groups from using the inevitable nationalistic backlash that will come from the Ukrainian people in a situation like this as a stepping stone to greater legitimacy.

Reports that Russian troops are assaulting the Kiev airport, which is insane.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, GrimTuesday said:

I mean, there is absolutely some element of truth to that propaganda, and it is important that we be aware of who we are giving legitimacy in the coming days because this is going to give those sorts of groups a larger platform. Shit Fox had a "Ukrainian Activist" on who is the former leader the Odessa branch of Right Sector (a neo Nazi organization) and is a suspect in a murder case.

I get that this situation is fucked, but just saying Zelenski is Jewish and dismissing this as mere propaganda is not going to stop ultra nationalist groups from using the inevitable nationalistic backlash that will come from the Ukrainian people in a situation like this as a stepping stone to greater legitimacy.

Reports that Russian troops are assaulting the Kiev airport, which is insane.

Hence my question to you about buying into and spreading Russian propaganda.

[Kalbear]

Just now, GrimTuesday said:

Reports that Russian troops are assaulting the Kiev airport, which is insane.

Sorry, why is this insane? Their goal - as stated several times by US intel - is to absolutely obliterate the leadership and anyone who is remotely opposed to Russia or their values. There was a kill list which had most of the Ukrainian leadership and a whole bunch of LGBT folks on it. Of course you take out the airport if your goal is to kill those leaders. 

This is so weird. It's the least surprising thing I've ever seen as far as warfare goes. Everything so far has been basically perfectly predicted and stated ahead of time, and folks were all crying about how wrong it was or how US intel was BS or how it was really US Imperialism. Or they took those bullshit troop withdrawal statements at face value even when independent open source intel said otherwise.

And now it's crazy? No, it's exactly what everyone said would happen. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

@Falcon2909

Still think US intel reports are funny?

 

[Lightning Lord]

59 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

It's a sad day.  Are there any Ukrainian boarders we know?

I'm not but I lived there for years. My friends are there. People that are like family to me. People I like more than most of my family.

Hence the poorly-worded vitriol, as if one needed any reason other than what is happening.

[BlackLightning]

Yikes

This is bad.

[Fez]

9 minutes ago, Kalibuster said:

Sorry, why is this insane? Their goal - as stated several times by US intel - is to absolutely obliterate the leadership and anyone who is remotely opposed to Russia or their values. There was a kill list which had most of the Ukrainian leadership and a whole bunch of LGBT folks on it. Of course you take out the airport if your goal is to kill those leaders. 

This is so weird. It's the least surprising thing I've ever seen as far as warfare goes. Everything so far has been basically perfectly predicted and stated ahead of time, and folks were all crying about how wrong it was or how US intel was BS or how it was really US Imperialism. Or they took those bullshit troop withdrawal statements at face value even when independent open source intel said otherwise.

And now it's crazy? No, it's exactly what everyone said would happen. 

If true, it is kind of insane that Russian troops are already at the Kiev airport. The invasion only started a little over an hour ago and Kiev isn't right at the border. I doubt the Ukrainian military has much hope of stopping, or even slowing, Russia. But just moving unimpeded from Belarus to Kiev should take more time than that. So I'd guess either Russian troops secretly crossed the border before Putin's speech, are doing something rather risky with paratroopers, or aren't actually near Kiev yet. Though even if the later is true, it doesn't mean they won't be by sometime tomorrow.

[Lightning Lord]

Many reports of gunfire near the Boryspil airport. Now reports of missile attacks in Kharkhiv and Kyiv (The Guardian).

[Mindwalker]

For Ukraine’s Jews, the Threat of War Stirs Memories of Past Horrors

In Odessa, Jewish leaders are preparing for the worst: hiring security guards, scoping out bomb shelters and making plans to evacuate if Russia invades the country.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/21/world/europe/ukraine-jews-russia-evacuations.html

 

 

[GrimTuesday]

41 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Hence my question to you about buying into and spreading Russian propaganda.

It's not just Russian propaganda, there is an element of truth to it that Russia is taking to the extreme for propaganda purposes. Go look up Azov Battalion, go look up Svobota (out of power at the moment but were players in the Porosheko admin, go look up Right Sector, there is a major problem with right wing ultra nationalists getting legitimacy because we don't critically examine who we are legitimizing. They are absolutely a minority of Ukrainians, but they exercise an outsized influence to their relative size.

Of course lets not forget, there are a lot of Neo-Nazi/ethno nationalists groups on the Russian side of things (Wagner Group anyone?) too but they aren't getting positive, uncritical coverage in the west.

40 minutes ago, Kalibuster said:

Sorry, why is this insane? Their goal - as stated several times by US intel - is to absolutely obliterate the leadership and anyone who is remotely opposed to Russia or their values. There was a kill list which had most of the Ukrainian leadership and a whole bunch of LGBT folks on it. Of course you take out the airport if your goal is to kill those leaders. 

This is so weird. It's the least surprising thing I've ever seen as far as warfare goes. Everything so far has been basically perfectly predicted and stated ahead of time, and folks were all crying about how wrong it was or how US intel was BS or how it was really US Imperialism. Or they took those bullshit troop withdrawal statements at face value even when independent open source intel said otherwise.

And now it's crazy? No, it's exactly what everyone said would happen. 

First off, I don't believe for a second there are "kill lists", it's in the same vein as the bullshit bounty on American troops crap that was being peddled last year. If Russia's goal is to kill Ukrainian leadership, they could do it easier through covert means, and there is no shot that Russia is going to appropriate any significant amount of resources to hunting down LGBT activists I can think of many group that would be a higher priority. Being skeptical of American intelligence especially those where absolutely no evidence is presented to back that intelligence should be the default position given their track record in the last 22 years.

Second off, the discussions about Imperialism was about the cause of the conflict it did not have anything to do with the events to come.

Other than that, yeah, I was wrong about whether or not this would go down, and I admitted that yesterday, I did not think that Putin would be crazy enough to move on Ukraine to such an extent.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Ukraine declares Martial Law, images of cars fleeing all over the place from Kyiv, and now the sirens are sounding.