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Ukraine: It’s starting…


Ser Scot A Ellison

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1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That isn’t going to be cancelled?

Nope. Why would it? This is UEFA we are talking about and there's too much money at stake to cancel the champions league. UEFA are only moving the final because of mounting political pressure. Before various government officials started urging for the final to be moved, UEFA were pretty noncommittal about it - Gazprom is one of the major sponsors afterall.

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2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Aren't they already kind of banned.. being made to compete under ROC or whatever for the olympics.

That's only a half measure and only concerns olympics, due to doping scandal. I'm talking about withdrawing Russians from all sports events completely.

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10 minutes ago, 3CityApache said:

@Scot 

Because sports organizations in general are bloody cowards. UEFA even informing about pulling the Champion's League Final from Russia did everything it could not to use word "invasion".

Cowards? think you misspelled corrupt and completely without ethics or morals.

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12 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Nope. Why would it? This is UEFA we are talking about and there's too much money at stake to cancel the champions league. UEFA are only moving the final because of mounting political pressure. Before various government officials started urging for the final to be moved, UEFA were pretty noncommittal about it - Gazprom is one of the major sponsors afterall.

Will non-Russian players refuse to go to Russia to play?

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4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Will non-Russian players refuse to go to Russia to play?

Well, that's why they pulled it out of Russia.

BTW, in exactly a month we were supposed to play Russia in World Cup qualifier playoffs in Moscow. I wonder how that ends.

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12 minutes ago, 3CityApache said:

That's only a half measure and only concerns olympics, due to doping scandal. I'm talking about withdrawing Russians from all sports events completely.

Wait, what exactly are you saying? Do you want Russia to be banned from sport events as a country/entity? Meaning events where athletes represent their country like the Olympics, World Championships, Davis Coup etc.

Or are you saying that all athletes that happen to be Russian nationality should be banned from all sports events and from practicing their livelihood. For example, that Medvedev should be chased out of Acapulco.

First option has merit and might happen, second option would be a terrible case of discrimination against innocent people and will hopefully never happen.

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5 minutes ago, mnedel said:

Wait, what exactly are you saying? Do you want Russia to be banned from sport events as a country/entity? Meaning events where athletes represent their country like the Olympics, World Championships, Davis Coup etc.

Or are you saying that all athletes that happen to be Russian nationality should be banned from all sports events and from practicing their livelihood. For example, that Medvedev should be chased out of Acapulco.

First option has merit and might happen, second option would be a terrible case of discrimination against innocent people and will hopefully never happen.

Yes.  If Russian Athletes want to compete internationally they can renounce their Russian citizenship.

This is a different world this morning. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Will non-Russian players refuse to go to Russia to play?

I don't think that situation will happen this season in the club competitions. In the three European competitions (the champions league, europa league and conference league) there are no Ukrainian teams left and just the one Russian team (Zenit St. Petersburg). Zenit have already played the 1st leg of their Europa league tie against Real Betis at home. The return leg takes place tonight in Seville and Zenit are most likely getting knocked out.

The problem will be for World Cup qualification. Both Ukraine and Russia are in the playoffs so we'll have to wait and see what FIFA and UEFA decide to do there.

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9 minutes ago, mnedel said:

First option has merit and might happen, second option would be a terrible case of discrimination against innocent people and will hopefully never happen.

Definitely the second option. I agree with Scot here, some actions require dire consequences. Though I do agree it won't happen, regrettably.

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10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yes.  If Russian Athletes want to compete internationally they can renounce their Russian citizenship.

This is a different world this morning. 

 

Well, that is a ridicules thing to demand and it is never going to happen. I understand emotions are high because of what is happening with Ukraine but what you are advocating is ethnic discrimination and xenophobia. You want to punish innocent individuals and deny their identity and culture.

Banning Russia from participating in the championships is another matter and will probably happen.

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9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yes.  If Russian Athletes want to compete internationally they can renounce their Russian citizenship.

I think this is an extreme overreaction.  I don't think there's many Russian players in the NBA currently (Kirilenko comes to mind as a previous one, and Timofey Mozgov), but if there were I wouldn't want the NBA to demand they renounce their citizenship in order to play.  I imagine this would be a much bigger issue in the NHL (don't know much about hockey but I know Ovechkin is Russian).

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2 minutes ago, mnedel said:

Well, that is a ridicules thing to demand and it is never going to happen. I understand emotions are high because of what is happening with Ukraine but what you are advocating is ethnic discrimination and xenophobia. You want to punish innocent individuals and deny their identity and culture.

Banning Russia from participating in the championships is another matter and will probably happen.

This kind of banning and shaming was used against the apartheid regime of South Africa. It did put a huge amount of pressure on that regime and did help it to collapse. Time for round 2

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

I think this is an extreme overreaction.  I don't think there's many Russian players in the NBA currently (Kirilenko comes to mind as a previous one, and Timofey Mozgov), but if there were I wouldn't want the NBA to demand they renounce their citizenship in order to play.  I imagine this would be a much bigger issue in the NHL (don't know much about hockey but I know Ovechkin is Russian).

Okay.  

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3 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think this is an extreme overreaction. 

Have to agree in the strongest possible terms. Demanding anyone renounce their citizenship, make a political statement, or offer up some oath of loyalty is just wrong and not consistent with liberal values. 

I'm certainly willing to see Russian sports federations  and organizations sanctioned, international events removed from Russia, etc., but Russian athletes who are part of international teams outside of Russia should not need to prove anything to continue playing.

 

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Is Putin really a rational actor in all this or is there more than meets the eye here? Invading Ukraine is a lot easier than holding Ukraine as the last few years showed that asymmetric warfare is extremely taxing on the would be conqueror.

I suspect that Putin has other, severe issues at home and this is a last ditch attempt to shore up support at home. There is no retirement waiting for him if he steps down but a fast plane to a safe haven if he can. He is spending a huge amount of political capital for basically a minor irritant. My prediction is that this is the start of a long miserable road for Russia that will see them become the 4th rate power they deserve to be.

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10 minutes ago, Ran said:

Have to agree in the strongest possible terms. Demanding anyone renounce their citizenship, make a political statement, or offer up some oath of loyalty is just wrong and not consistent with liberal values. 

I'm certainly willing to see Russian sports federations  and organizations sanctioned, international events removed from Russia, etc., but Russian athletes who are part of international teams outside of Russia should not need to prove anything to continue playing.

 

I see your point.  I do.  I’m simply trying to think of anything we can do do put pressure on Russia and Russians to stop this.

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8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I see your point.  I do.  I’m simply trying to think of anything we can do do put pressure on Russia and Russians to stop this.

Disconnecting them completely from the global finance market would work I suspect. That would require massive sacrifices though and is unlikely to happen.

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14 minutes ago, Ran said:

Russian athletes who are part of international teams outside of Russia should not need to prove anything to continue playing.

Ok, this is a fair point I admit. And what about individual sports where athlets perform under Russian flag, like tennis players? I do think such a pressure might prove useful, even if this is just emotions speaking.

Of course I know it's all fully theoretical, as it won't happen.

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2 minutes ago, maarsen said:

I suspect that Putin has other, severe issues at home and this is a last ditch attempt to shore up support at home. There is no retirement waiting for him if he steps down but a fast plane to a safe haven if he can. He is spending a huge amount of political capital for basically a minor irritant. My prediction is that this is the start of a long miserable road for Russia that will see them become the 4th rate power they deserve to be.

I do suspect there is more than one can ever imagine behind these extreme actions. I cannot put my finger on it. But it smells to something very serious.

For once, I think (and hear) that Putin is seriously ill so there is need to hurry (Biden too but there succession is not a problem).

It's possible that US is developing some destabilizating weapon system or there are alterations in the world balance (economical, technologically, etc) that needed to be countered at earnest. I don't know. It feels like Shirvan's moment in the Lord of Emperors: "It is not to be allowed. We will go to war."  (read that book!)

As a tragic/comic note... A friend of mine who is a bit on the esoteric side, predicted months ago that on the 26th of February great changes will come. She was referring mostly to Pandemic related policies (which she opposes) but prophesies can bite you in your ass as anyone who has read asoiaf can tell.

 

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