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Bears, Direwolves, other things, and Lightbringer


northern_amnesia

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"There's some enemies a fire will keep away," Gared said. "Bears and direwolves and … and other things …" Prologue - AGoT

In AGOT’s prologue, when Gared tells Waymar that they need a fire, the young ranger is pissed because he doesn’t want the wildlings to know they are there. While a fire can be good to keep some “things” away, is also very good to let them know where you are. Like Qhorin told Jon, sometimes a fire can be the difference between life and death.

Let’s talk about fire and Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes. Plural.

 

Legend claims that it takes three attempts to make the sword, the first time, Azor Ahai does the classic tempering in water, the second he hunts a lion, and the third he uses his wife’s blood.

The most interesting seems to be the last attempt, because apparently it requires a special type of blood. In the legend, Azor Ahai called his wife and asked her to bare her breast, and she did so willinglyThat’s where Waymar comes in.

Waymar the ranger from the prologue was a Royce, and they are a peculiar family because instead of a family sword, they have a family armor that’s supposed to be magical. Waymar also had a peculiar look, because he had the “look of a Stark”, in fact he looked like Jon, and looking a certain way, makes you think of an armor, like Renly’s ghost. You don’t really know what’s inside.

When Will said that the wildlings were dead, that he saw them, as far as Gared was concerned, that was it, but Waymar insisted. He wanted to know why eight grown men apparently just died. And right there is our path to the sword, in the three things that Waymar mentions:

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“…. but surely no cold fierce enough to kill eight grown men. Men clad in fur and leather, let me remind you, with shelter near at hand, and the means of making fire.”

Lightbringer is a sword that “makes its own heat” which is basically one of the things that Waymar mentions, the “means of making fire”. But making its own heat doesn’t mean burning things**,** it’s about what Ned told Arya about wolves and winter:

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"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm.” Arya II – AGoT

Men clad in fur and leather

Waymar tells Gared to stay behind, while he goes with Will to examine the dead wildlings, but when they get there, they are gone, so Royce orders Will to climb a tree and look for a fire. As we know, Will ends up looking how his ‘brother’ Waymar is killed.

Will had been scared all day because he felt that “something cold and implacable” had been watching him and assumed that Gared felt it too. The ‘thing’ he feels watching him is Waymar, he had the “cold eyes” of a Stark, and of course he was implacable. He even says so, he’s not going back a failure, he wants to find these men.

Waymar faces the Other and gets brutally murdered, but the weirder thing happens once he falls because the five “Others” that stood there just watching the entire thing, proceed to, very coldly, thrust their swords on Waymar’s blood like if they were tempering their blades on the ranger’s blood.

That’s exactly what they were doing.

Royce ends up face down on the snow with one arm outflung, his broken sword a few feet away, looking like the Titan of Braavos. His cloak is slashed in 12 different places, and that’s an interesting number, because the Last Hero had 12 companions and a broken sword.

A while later, Gared, the ranger that had been waiting with the horses shows up near Winterfell and not far from there, there’s a corpse, a she-wolf. Robb and Jon found that corpse and something else, 6 pups, one for each Stark children, meaning 12 companions, like Waymar’s 12 slashes.

After Waymar dies, Will, that had been watching the entire thing from a tree, climbs down and goes for Waymar’s sword while thinking that “the broken sword would be his proof”, that Gared would know what to do, and if not him, then Mormont or Maester Aemon.

The one that knew what to do with the direwolves was Jon.

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"You have five trueborn children," Jon said. "Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord." Bran I – AGoT

Gared was caught near Winterfell, Mormont gave Jon his family sword, Longclaw, and Aemon told him something that’s very important to understand Lightbringer: “Kill the boy”.

Will comes near Waymar’s dead body and thinks that “lying dead like that you saw how young he was, a boy” which is funny because he was lying face down, so noyou couldn’t see how young he was.

Cat “sees” Jon apparently for the first time when he’s leaving to the NW, so he’s all but ‘dead’ at that point, he’s no longer a danger for her children.

But for Cat, Jon was never a childhe was a threat, something dangerous that was getting worse as he grew because he looked more like a Stark than any of her trueborn boys.

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He was at the door when she called out to him. "Jon," she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time. "Yes?" he said.

"It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.

Of course, like Waymar, Jon was a boy, in fact Jon was much younger than Waymar, and even when he was not a real threat, he was a motherless kid, with no name, and no rights, Cat, like the Other in the prologue coldly and mercilessly, hurt Jon and taught her five children to do the same.

That episode with Cat completely drains Jon emotionally, until he sees Arya.

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Arya ran to him for a last hug. "Put down the sword first," Jon warned her, laughing. She set it aside almost shyly and showered him with kisses.

 

Arya ran to him, and he warned “put down the sword” he was just coming from being stabbed, he didn’t need more of that.

Jon gave Arya “Needle”, the sword that’s Arya’s biggest secret and she showered him with kisses.

Waymar died on a rain of needles.

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The Other’s parry was almost lazy.

When the blades touched, the steel shattered. A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers.

Whatever cold, whatever ‘wall of ice’ Cat intended to put between her children and Jon, Arya shattered it, and that’s what Will hears when the Others laugh, a “cracking of ice”, that’s Arya laughing with her secret, the sword, after Jon was brutally hurt by Cat.

Once the ‘rain of needles’ falls, Royce “went to his knees” and covered his eyes while blood welled. That’s Jon saying his vows and going north, when he comes back to the Wall, there are no more Starks on Winterfell, and the castle is a shell.

Will approaches Waymar’s corpse and grab his sword, then Waymar rises:

 

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His fine clothes were a tatterhis face a ruinA shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye. The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw.

Waymar, raises “different”, his cloak is a mess, his face is a ruin, one eye is blind but the right one is open and that eye, that ‘burns’, sees.

When Jon finds Ghost in the snow, Theon tells him that surely,he would be the first to die, because like Waymar, his ‘cloak’ was wrong, he was white, and his face was “a ruin”, he had red eyes. Then Bran notes that while the others were still blind, Ghost was the first to see.

One more detail, Jon told Benjen that Ghost was different because he never made a sound. We saw that The Others made sounds, the one that killed him mocked Waymar, some of them laughed, but they did it in an unknown and very cold language.

The thing is that Ghost is not that different from the other ghost. Arya thought that she was “the ghost of Harrenhal”, and of course, for different reasons, Jon and Arya where the outcasts in Winterfell.

Will never got to take Waymar’s sword to the Wall, but something arrived, something frozen, and kind of broken.

Shelter near at hand

The night that Jon and Sam swear their vows, Ghost brings Jon a very weird gift, Jafer’s hand. The rangers that had been part of Benjen’s group ‘appear’ a half day’s ride from the Wall.

When the bodies are found, someone suggest burning them, mostly because their eyes were all wrong, they were blue, when none of them ever had blue eyes before. Like the Starks.

But Mormont, like Waymar, wants to understand what’s going on, so the corpses are brought to the castle. In the middle of the night the corpses rise and while Flowers, for unknown reasons, kills a lot of brothers, five to be precise, Othor goes straight to Mormont’s room.

Jafer’s missing hand was his right hand, so he killed 5 men with his left handthe left was Waymar’s white blind eye.

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I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with the right.” Jaime VIII – ASoS

What’s interesting about this parallel between Flowers and Arthur is that as we know, Cat heard that Ashara Dayne was Jon’s mother, so “Flowers”, a southern bastard name is a great parallel for Jon.

The Other in the prologue is also accompanied by five useless watchers that just stand there until Waymar dies. Those beings wear armor that changes colors from grey (like a Stark), to black, to white.

Is funny how Will thought that in The Other’s armor “The patterns ran like moonlight on water” because the Stark “pattern” is apparently to “melt” when they cross the Neck, and Will’s intention was to run to the Wall with a story and a sword that proved it, which is basically, what Cat did, she went to KL with a dagger and a story, and that started a war that doomed her family, but of course, it wasn't Ned that started it, it was Cat.

 

On King’s Landing, Arya was rescued by a brother of the Night’s Watch, Yoren. Waymar says 3 things during his fight with the Other: “come no farther”, “dance with me”, and “For Robert!”, all related to Arya leaving King’s Landing and going north, and 3 men very important to her, Syrio, Yoren, and Gendry, ‘a ‘first sword’, a ‘brother’, and a bastardJon basically. But also, all clearly related to Lyanna.

Lyanna, as Bran’s vision shows, “danced” with Benjen, she played swords with him. In that vision Benjen falls into the cold black waters of Winterfell’s pool and she tells him to keep quiet or Nan will run tell father, like Yoren run to tell Ned about Tyrion’s abduction.

The means of making fire

The second corpse, Othor, goes straight for Mormont, and it’s never clear why. Likely, he had the exact same thought that Will had, that Mormont would know what to do. Keep in mind that Will considered to take the sword that would prove what he saw to someone that would know what to do.

And this was someone that would know what to do:

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That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me." Catelyn II – AGoT

Jon and Ghost find Othor, and during the fight, the wight puts his very cold fingers in Jon’s mouth like if he’s trying to keep him quiet. In that moment, Jon feels like those blue as frost eyes are filling his entire world and that was the last thing that Will saw, Waymar’s burning blue right eye.

Jon gets unconscious, until he remembers to look for his sword.

That’s exactly what seemed to be happening to Waymar that stayed dead until he raised when Will went for his sword.

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He watched, only half conscious, for a long moment before he finally remembered to look for his sword… … and saw Lord Mormont, naked and groggy from sleep, standing in the doorway with an oil lamp in hand. Gnawed and fingerless, the arm thrashed on the floor, wriggling toward him. Jon tried to shout, but his voice was gone. Staggering to his feet, he kicked the arm away and snatched the lamp from the Old Bear’s fingers. The flame flickered and almost died. “Burn!” the raven cawed. “Burn, burn, burn!”

The moment that Jon remembers his sword, he sees Mormont, with a light in his hand, and the raven yells “Burn!”, but to whom?

From that point on, Jon always wears gloves, like Waymar’s, made of moleskin, and keeps opening and closing his hand, like if he’s always trying for the blood to flow, trying hard not to get all cold. Of course, he burns his sword hand, and the thing is, that Jon thinks about his sword and sees Mormont with a light in his hand.

Mormont seems to be “lightbringer” and of course, the hero needed a sword. Remember that Jorah gave up that sword when he sold some poachers (like Will), because is relevant later.

 

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"As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree." Catelyn VII – AGoT

What Jaime did, standing there filling his “head with thoughts of Cersei” is basically what Jon did, stood on the Wall filling his head with thoughts of Ygritte. 

Mormont gave Jon his family sword, and the Mormont’s words are “Here We Stand” and that’s exactly what Jon does, like Jaime, just stand there while the Starks died.

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She giggled at him. "It's so skinny." "So are you," Jon told her. "I had Mikken make this special. The bravos use swords like this in Pentos and Myr and the other Free Cities. It won't hack a man's head off, but it can poke him full of holes if you're fast enough." Jon II – AGoT

 

Needle the skinny sword, like the swords in the crypt, was made “special”.

 

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The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-onThere was a faint blue shimmer to the thinga ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

The swords in the crypt, eventually vanish, those swords are there just “to keep the vengeful spirits” but the ‘faint blue shimmer’ that seems “sharper than any razor” is about hatenot vengeance, is about people with blue eyes.

Ned told Robert that he had seen Lyanna’s beauty “but not the iron underneath”, and that makes you think like if she wore an armor, which leads us again to Waymar and his look, the “ghost light” in Jon.

Robert hatred for Rhaegar was too much, but maybe understandable, Cat’s hate for Jon, on the other hand, was completely unjustified, and absolutely blind.

 

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Ned stopped at last and lifted the oil lantern. The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children. Ned did not like to think on that." Eddard I - AGoT

 

The crypt is full of holes, waiting for Ned’s family, but you don’t need to be fast to hack a man’s head off, you just need a sword, and you don't need to choose between a cripple or a baby if there's someone with a better claim.

Just as Gared thought, there’s some enemies that a fire will keep away, but as Waymar thought fire can also let them know where you are.

 

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"Then a long cruel winter fell," said Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeonsIt's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them." Davos IV - ADwD

 

Tempering the sword

 

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"Do they keep a bear down here?" Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash"A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?"

"Doom." No bear, he knew. No lion. "Only doom." Jaime VI – ASoS

 

In Jaime’s darkness there’s no lion and no bear, but there’s definitely a direwolf and a little “splash”.

 

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The moonlight glimmered pale upon the stump where Jaime had rested his head. The moss covered it so thickly he had not noticed before, but now he saw that the wood was white. It made him think of Winterfell, and Ned Stark's heart tree. It was not him, he thought. It was never him. But the stump was dead and so was Stark and so were all the others, Prince Rhaegar and Ser Arthur and the children. And Aerys. Aerys is most dead of all. "Do you believe in ghosts, Maester?" he asked Qyburn.

 

Jaime was there when Brandon and Rickard Stark died. And seeing them had a long-lasting effect in the young brother, because even if the Starks meant absolutely nothing to him, Brandon went there for his sister, and clearly Jaime could relate to that, in fact he thinks of Cersei while the Starks die. Brandon had to watch his father die a horrible death, and Jaime refused to relate to that.

 

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“Will saw them,” Gared said. “If he says they are dead, that’s proof enough for me.” Will had known they would drag him into the quarrel sooner or later. He wished it had been later rather than sooner. “My mother told me that dead men sing no songs,” he put in.” Prologue - AGoT

 

Like Will, Jaime saw the Starks die, and of course when Aerys started to sing, “burn them all” Jaime, that had already saw how that song ended, decided that “dead men sing no songs” and killed him.

So, when Gared, the old ranger, says “we need a fire”, Waymar gets angry like Jaime, because “the enemy” that Aerys intended to burn, was Jaimie’s own father, and Jaime likely.

Waymar tells Gared that if there are enemies, a fire is the last thing they want, and that leads us to the ending of another song, Bael’s. That song ends, in the happy version, when they find the child, but in the darker version, the song ends when the kid comes to Winterfell with his father’s head and his mother throw herself from a tower.

Jon clearly looks like a Stark and Cat suspects his mother was Ashara, the dornish (fire) woman that killed herself like the maiden in the song.

Bran, the kid that wanted to be a kingsguard, sees the lion, Jaime Lannister, on a tower in Winterfell, having sex with his sister, and ends up ‘falling’.

But that “falling” wasn’t meant for Bran, it was meant for Jon. Cat says so, “it should have been you”, Jon always wanted to be a Stark, he wanted to know who his mother was, and what Bran sees in that tower is Jon’s origin, just with different cloaks.

 

Ghost is the first one to see and his eyes are red as blood, Jon’s eyes, according to Bran, are dark “but there was little they did not see”.

 

The one that was meant to see the incest was Jon. He suspects that his origin is something “dark and dishonorable”, and depending on how you feel about incest, he’s right. Jon finds Ghost because he hears him, he’s the only one that hears him, like Bran was the only one that heard the Lannisters.

 

Waymar comes 'to life' when Will has the ‘proof’, the broken sword, and he stops the watcher from telling the story, and when he does, one eye is blind while the other burns.

 

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“I don’t care about that!” Jon said hotly.

You might, if you knew what it meant,” Benjen said. “If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.

Jon felt anger rise inside him. “I’m not your son!” (...)

He wrenched free of their grip and ran, half-blind, for the door.

Ghost followed close at his heels, out into the night." Jon I - AGoT

Waymar’s blue Flowers

Waymar was looking for some wildlings, but he finds something else. Flowers, the brother that left with Benjen, rises in the middle of the night and for unknown reasons kills five brothers.

All in all, Waymar and Flowers killed six brothers. That’s the number of trueborn Starks when the story begins, Ned and his five children.

Waymar was the one in charge on his mission, he ordered Will to “look for a fire”, like Rhaegar asked Jaime to watch for his father. Jaime ends up killing him instead.

Clearly Ned promised to watch for Jon, but he just kept him alive.

 

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“No,” Jon Snow said quietly. “It was not courage. This one was dead of fearYou could see it in his eyes, Stark.” Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see.” Bran I – AGoT

Jon’s life in Winterfell was a life of cold swords poking him full of holes, unlike Waymar’s death that was fast.

The hand that Jaime loses is the hand that pushed Bran, his sword hand, and that’s the hand that Jon burns. Jaime fondly remembers how Arthur could have killed his five useless brothers if he wanted to, and that’s what Jafer does, kills five black brothers. Of course, once that Jon burns his right hand, the Starks start to die like flies.

 

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It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.

Like Brandon, Jaime was the older son, but a cold cup passed to him, just as Waymar’s cup passed to Flowers. Killing Aerys was meant for a Stark, not Jaime.

 

Will’s voiceless Horn

The next cup passed from Will to Othor, as we know, Will had the rare privilege of seen them all, while apparently no enemy ever saw him. But before he could take a single step, Waymar caught him.

Othor does what Will intended to do, get to Mormont. Will’s intention was to bring Waymar’s twisted sword, the “proof”.

As we saw, the Royce’s have a special armor that seems to protect them, and clearly, Jon had something that protected him, because Othor twisted his guard’s head of until the man ended up with his body looking down, but his head looking up, but when he fought Jon, he just shoved his fingers in his mouth. Weird, right?

 

When Bran is in a coma, and as twisted and broken as Waymar’s sword, Jon goes to see him, and Cat tells him “it should have been you” and right there, we have the last step of Lightbringer’s temperingshe was weeping over the broken sword that just ‘hunted’ a lion, and for no apparent reason except pure cruelty she calls Jon by his name for the first time ever, and thrusted the sword in his heart.

 

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“A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa,’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart.”

 

There is our sword, Lightbringer, a sword that “makes its own heat”, Jon’s mere existence was enough to fuel Cat’s blind hatred. 

 

When Ned says that “it was all meant for Brandon” he forgets about “ICE”.

 

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“When Jon had been Bran's age, he had dreamed of doing great deeds, as boys always did. The details of his feats changed with every dreaming, but quite often he imagined saving his father's life. Afterward Lord Eddard would declare that Jon had proved himself a true Stark, and place Ice in his hand. Even then he had known it was only a child's folly; no bastard could ever hope to wield a father's sword.”

It’s kind of funny that Jon dreamed that a “true Stark” should save his father’s life because the guy that was supposed to get everything, managed to get his own father killed. The best part of this quote is how Eddard was supposed to place “Ice” in his hand to prove he was a “true Stark” because Jon burns his hand fighting a frozen man, and saving someone else's father.

Jaime’s cup passed to Jon, the ‘kingslayer’ saved his father’s life from the fire, and Jon saved Mormont's from the cold.

 

A Black Bundle

 

The next time we see wights is on the Fist of the First Men. The first men in the novels are of course Gared, Waymar, and Will.

Gared says something very interesting about the cold because he experienced it first-hand:

 

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"I've had the cold in me too, lordling." Gared pulled back his hood, giving Ser Waymar a good long look at the stumps where his ears had been. "Two ears, three toes, and the little finger off my left hand. I got off light. We found my brother frozen at his watch, with a smile on his face." Prologue - AGoT

On the Fist, Jon is recruited by Qhorin for a very important mission, finding the “power” that Mance was looking for.

Arthur the guy that, like Qhorin, could easily kill with his left hand, was the one that recruited Jaime.

 

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That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he’d performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir. Jaime VI – ASoS

 

Remember that a man with missing fingers is the one that proclaims Robb as King, apparently because losing half his hand convinced him he was in the presence of a ‘true’ man. Legend says that once Qhorin lost his fingers, he became the wildlings most implacable foe, but clearly, Robb didn’t knew that story.

Is never very clear why Qhorin thought that Jon would be an asset to his group since they had never met, unlike the other men that Qhorin knew well, Jon didn’t have any particular skill, except of course his blood and gods that Qhorin mentions, or more likely, the direwolf that runs with him, that Qhorin also mentions, and looks like a weirwood tree.

Is funny that most of those are things that are mentioned when Robb is proclaimed, but they fit Jon better than Robb. I’ll do a separate post about that because is just great.

 

When only Qhorin and Jon remained, the Halfhand gave him his mission:

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"Then hear me. If we are taken, you will go over to them, as the wildling girl you captured once urged you. They may demand that you cut your cloak to ribbonsthat you swear them an oath on your father's gravethat you curse your brothers and your Lord Commander. You must not balk, whatever is asked of you. Do as they bid you . . . but in your heart, remember who and what you are. Ride with them, eat with them, fight with them, for as long as it takes. And watch."

 

Qhorin never tells Jon what he’s supposed to watch, and of course he doesn’t need to, Umber did, it was the dragons they married, and the dragons were all gone, but Ned married a deer, and clearly they didn’t liked that marriage, none of them was there when Robert came to the north..

 

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"The castle is ours, ser, and the city," Roland Crakehall told him, which was half true. (...) He had not seemed surprised to find Aerys slain; Jaime had been Lord Tywin's son long before he had been named to the Kingsguard." Jaime II - ASoS

 

When Ned entered the Red Keep, he saw Jaime sitting in the throne with a sword on his lap and he told Ned that he had nothing to fearOf himof course. Old Nan told Bran that “fear is for the winter”, and the story that Davos hears, makes you think of a very fearsome Stark.

Waymar told Gared that lately they had “no cold fierce enough” to kill eight grown men clad in fur and leather, with shelter near at hand, and the means of making fire, which is a very clear reference to the story that Davos is told about what winter is, what the north is supposed to be.

Except that Bartimus had the wrong name, it wasn’t “Brandon Stark” that brought winter, it was Jon.

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“He looked at the passing faces and the tales came back to him. The maester had told him the stories, and Old Nan had made them come alive. "That one is Jon StarkWhen the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor. Bran VII - AGoT

The Stark that fell on the “sea raiders” came howling from the north, from the Wall.

A length of frayed rope

 

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A length of frayed rope bound the bundle together. Jon unsheathed his dagger and cut it, groped for the edges of the cloth, and pulled. (...) He saw a dozen knives, leaf-shaped spearheads, numerous arrowheads. (…) Dragonglass. What the maesters call obsidian. (…) Beneath the dragonglass was an old warhorn, made from an auroch’s horn and banded in bronze. (…) Good wool, thick, a double weave, damp but not rotted. It could not have been long in the ground. And it was dark. He seized a handful and pulled it close to the torch. Not dark. Black.

 

On the Fist, while the brothers are waiting for Qhorin, Jon finds three things:

  • An old warhorn, apparently broken
  • Weapons made of dragonglass or “frozen fire”
  • A black cloak, clearly from a brother of the Night’s Watch

 

In that bundle, we have everything that Gared mentioned when he described what it was like to have “the cold”: “Two ears, three toes, and the little finger off my left hand.

Two ears, the old warhorn banded in bronze

The Lannister’s words are, as we know “Hear Me Roar”, and of course, Cersei’s “roaring” is what attracted Bran to the window.

We know that Brandon ‘roared’ in the Red Keep for Rhaegar to come out and die, and he didn’t, but that doesn’t mean that no one heard, Jaime did, and half the continent. 

 

Once that Brandon roared there was no turning back, like there wasn’t when Jon announced he was going to face Ramsey, and of course he didn’t intended to get back.

 

We saw the same thing again, but this time, the one that hears ‘the roar‘, is Sam:

 

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The warhorn he had given to Sam. On closer examination the horn had proved cracked, and even after he had cleaned all the dirt out, Jon had been unable to get any sound from it. The rim was chipped as well, but Sam liked old things, even worthless old things." Jon V – AcoK

 

Bran ‘falls’ and he’s unable to get any sound from his father, that should have done something when his own son was left "worthless" and he had the proof that someone was sent to kill him afterwards and nearly killed his wife.

 

Brandon did much more with much less than that… Of course, Brandon went to King’s Landing clearly thinking that they were done with the Iron Throne, but Ned was far from done with Robert, even when his family was behind what happened to Bran, and even when he knew that he was a terrible King.

Likely, Sam didn’t carry the horn with him all the way to Craster’s Keep, and it doesn’t matter, because he carried the sound.

 

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“Do it now. Stop crying and fight, you baby. Fight, craven. It was his father he heard, it was Alliser Thorne, it was his brother Dickon and the boy Rast. Craven, craven, cravenHe giggled hysterically, wondering if they would make a wight of him, a huge fat white wight always tripping over its own dead feet. Do it, Sam. Was that Jon, now? Jon was dead. You can do it, you can, just do it. And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both handsHe heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man’s foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears and fell hard on his arse.” Samwell I – ASoS

 

What Sam hears, “craven, craven, craven” are the Starks dying while Ned was at the Eyrie doing absolutely nothing until Jon Arryn declared himself in revolt. And once the war was all but over, instead of declaring that the north was done with the Iron Throne, he knelt, but this time there was no dragons, only a drunk deer.

 

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"It would seem our Bastard is in love," he said as Jon helped the fat boy to his feet. "Show me your steel, Lord Snow."

 

Gared’s first proof of the cold were his missing earsSam’s proof was hearing Jon’s voice, that had blown that horn and thought that no sound came out of it. Once that Sam kills the Other, the sound is so sharp that he had to cover his ears.

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Is your sword sharp, Jon Snow?” asked Qhorin Halfhand across the flickering fire.

 

The first proof that something’s wrong in the north is the emptiness that Robert finds when he came.

 

Frozen Fire and three toes

Sam is the one that discovers that “dragonglass” or obsidian is the weapon of choice if you’re going after an ‘Other’, like Cat. It was bastards what doomed the dragons, and a bastard doomed Ned and his family.

I already mentioned the Greatjon Umber obvious role in this, and I’ll make a separate post about the northern conspiracy and a wrong way ranger later. But for now, I just wanted to point out Jon’s eyes, that seem like obsidian, and the point that “dragonglass” points to the fact that the disgusting habit of incest is like a “glass” that clearly wasn’t invented by the dragons, otherwise the Lannister’s couldn’t have stayed looking like that thousands of years, and neither the Starks.

 

A black cloak and a little finger

Benjen comes back to Winterfell for Robert’s welcome feast, and he notes that Jon was doing bad.

 

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"There are still direwolves beyond the Wall. We hear them on our rangings." Benjen Stark gave Jon a long look. "Don't you usually eat at table with your brothers?" "Most times," Jon answered in a flat voice. "But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them."

 

Is funny that every single word that Qhorin told Jon when he instructed him on the ‘power’ he was supposed to look for, are in the exchange he had with Benjen: “Ride with them” (direwolves), “eat with them” (brothers), “fight with them” (Lady Stark). But there’s something else that Qhorin says: “…for as long as it takes. And watch.”

When Jon leaves for the Watch, Lady Stark finally “sees” Jon for the first time and decides that the moment he came to say goodbyeto let her know she won, was a great time to give the final stroke, and cut that bastard’s heart once and for all.

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Littlefinger ignored the jibe. He eyed Ned with a smile on his lips that bordered on insolence. “I have hoped to meet you for some years, Lord Stark. No doubt Lady Catelyn has mentioned me to you.”

“She has,” Ned replied with a chill in his voice. The sly arrogance of the comment rankled him. “I understand you knew my brother Brandon as well.”

Renly Baratheon laughed. Varys shuffled over to listen.

Rather too well,” Littlefinger said. “I still carry a token of his esteem. Did Brandon speak of me too?”

Often, and with some heat,” Ned said, hoping that would end it. He had no patience with this game they played, this dueling with words.

 

Littlefinger mentions that he still carries a “token” of Brandon’s esteem. What he had, as we know, was a terrible wound that Brandon inflicted on him when he asked for a duel

 

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They met in the lower bailey of Riverrun. When Brandon saw that Petyr wore only helm and breastplate and mail, he took off most of his armor. Petyr had begged her for a favor he might wear, but she had turned him away. Her lord father promised her to Brandon Stark, and so it was to him that she gave her token, a pale blue hand scarf she had embroidered with the leaping trout of Riverrun. As she pressed it into his hand, she pleaded with him. “He is only a foolish boy, but I have loved him like a brother. It would grieve me to see him die.” And her betrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark and promised to spare the boy who loved her.

 

Petyr was apparently madly in love with Cat, but she just felt sorry for him apparently, so she begged her betrothed to spare his life because she loved him like a brother, and of course, Brandon agreed. That’s what any person that have something resembling to a heart would do, yet, when Jon came to see the foolish boy that he loved like a brother, Cat looked at him with the frosted eyes of a Stoneheart and didn’t spare him. Hell no.

 

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That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. “Yield!” he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their anklesBrandon finally ended it (…) He looked at her as he fell and murmured “Cat” as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that.

 

Brandon’s fight with Littlefinger is almost the exact same fight that Waymar had with the Other, but the most interesting thing is that like Cat’s “duel” with Jon, it was over as soon as it begunshe had won, the “river was lapping” at Jon’s ankles, he was going to the Night’s Watch, that was itBut Cat needed that final stroke, she wanted that “bright blood”.

It will be Brandon, again, the one that will end it, because Jon will be posed as Brandon’s son ending Cat’s cold song. Likely, Littlefinger has something to do with that.

We can now understand why Waymar was so pissed with Gared when he had the notion that they needed a “fire”. What the north wants is a cold Stark.

 

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@northern_amnesia I assumed "it should have been you" is meant to tell us Jon's third eye was supposed to be opened instead of Bran , though , I'm still not sure why:dunno: but Bran does seem to try to open Jon's third eye in aSoS (I think)... maybe Jaimie/Cersei's connected too , but I think it's kinda doubtful .  also , reading most of your threads I still get lost why you assume Jon needs to be Benjen's son but also needs to pose as Brandon's?  

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Very nice! Lots of fresh insights here and great citations from the books. Thank you for putting this together. 

I particularly like two of the parallels you highlight. First:

14 hours ago, northern_amnesia said:

In the middle of the night the corpses rise and while Flowers, for unknown reasons, kills a lot of brothers, five to be precise, Othor goes straight to Mormont’s room.

Jafer’s missing hand was his right hand, so he killed 5 men with his left hand, the left was Waymar’s white blind eye.

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“I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with the right.” Jaime VIII – ASoS

What’s interesting about this parallel between Flowers and Arthur is that as we know, Cat heard that Ashara Dayne was Jon’s mother, so “Flowers”, a southern bastard name is a great parallel for Jon.

I am in agreement with your "Jaime is Jon; Jon is Jaime" point (although forgive me if I oversimplify by putting it that way). To me, the strong implication here is that Jafer Flowers is a parallel for Jaime: Flowers is the bastard name from the westerlands, where Casterly Rock and the Lannisters are the wardens. Of course, Jaime also loses a hand, as Jafer does before his attack on the brothers at Castle Black.

With your section heading, "Waymar’s blue Flowers," I think you were also making the comparison to the blue flowers growing from a chink in the wall, symbols associated with Lyanna Stark and with Jon Snow. (As well as the winter roses in the Bael the Bard legend.) Your thorough documenting of the blue eyes of the wights/Others, and excellent linking of the eyes to ice/Ice (the sword Ice) reminds me of another important player in the blue eyes symbolism: Brienne of Tarth.

Quote

Brienne's eyes were large and very blue, a young girl's eyes, trusting and guileless, but the rest . . .

ACoK, Catelyn II

Brienne looked at her with those blue and beautiful eyes.

ACoK, Catelyn VI

So Brienne is equivalent to the Others?

Brienne is Catelyn's sworn sword, but Catelyn assigns her to guard the hostage Jaime for the trip to King's Landing. Of course, Brienne and Jaime develop a unique bond and Jaime later gives Brienne a sword that contains material from the sword Ice as well as "Lannister crimson" steel magically combined into one blade by Tobho Mott. 

It's as if Jaime is wielding the blade that is Brienne; or maybe Catelyn and Jaime are fighting for control of the blade. Or maybe they are magically combined into one blade.

Your good "Jafer is Jon; Jon is Jaime" insight, along with Jaime's observation about Arthur Dayne's skilled swordsmanship as a match for the prowess shown by the wighted Jafer, also suggests that we should revisit the Dayne / Payne / Reyne wordplay GRRM has set before us. Jaime was knighted by Arthur Dayne but he loses his sword hand (and, as you point out, the hand that slayed Aerys and pushed Bran from the Old Keep). He then "exhumes" Ser Ilyn Payne from the King's Landing dungeon and learns to fight again using his opposite hand. 

Among your many good insights, this is the second point that really appeals to me:

14 hours ago, northern_amnesia said:

Brandon’s fight with Littlefinger is almost the exact same fight that Waymar had with the Other

I would further note that the Brandon / Littlefinger duel is similar in many ways to the "trial by combat" between Ser Duncan the Tall and Ser Lucas Longinch. There is symbolism in that conflict that juxtaposes Ser Lucas as both the father of Dunk and as a member of the Night's Watch. Because of the acknowledged link between Dunk and Brienne, this might be another iteration of the conflict between winter / darkness / the Others and the Night's Watch. 

There was a recent thread that helped to bring to light the symbolic importance of Mance's shredded / repaired cloak. I think it ties into your point about the twelve stab wounds in Ser Waymar's cloak as well as the twelve stab wounds that Brandon inflicts on Littlefinger. Of course, Mance's cloak was torn when he was attacked and nearly killed by a shadow cat - a symbolic Catelyn, who is known as Cat. The "shadow" aspect of this cat could allude to Catelyn in her post-death phase, when she become Lady Stoneheart. 

A few of my interpretations differ from yours but you have done a great job of putting together some important clues. Thank you for posting this!

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4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Another Jon the incestborn thread well written, yes, but why? Why is Jon the product of incest? What’s the point of it? What does it add to the story?

 

Hello! Thank you very much for your comment. Honestly, the thing with the incest is something I thought about a lot because it didn't make much sense to me either, but R+L never seemed right either.

“The search for the father” began because, in my opinion, being Rhaegar’s son added absolutely nothing to the story, on the contrary, we would be in the presence of a Romeo and Juliet-type story that we have already seen ad nauseam and that, for instance, it wouldn’t explain at all why 8 people die in the tower of joy, just as Ned dreams it or what The Others have to do with all this. But mostly because as the show proved, it’s just lame.

The Others, like the dragons, are a "different" race, not entirely human, and I think it's a way of emphasizing the superiority that Cat thinks she has. She believes that her children are better than Jon just because they are trueborn, and all the time she has to put up with the bastard not only looking more like Ned, but being better than Robb in a lot of things, and that clearly hurts her. Not to mention how it must hurt her that Ned had loved another woman maybe more than he loved her.

What does it add to the story that Jon is the result of an incestuous relationship and not a promised prince? First, it would put him on the same level as the rest of the "heroes" in this story, the rest of the "princes", but it would also add a lot to Ned’s couple since their marriage grew at the shadow of a lie that Ned told not so much for Lyanna, but rather for Robert. I think the “Shadow Tower” at the Wall is a great clue about this.

Friendship, and especially friendship between men with their (sometimes a bit ridiculous) codes, is a subject little explored in the novels, the only clear example is the friendship between Jon and Sam, and he becomes very distressed when he finds out that Jon switched Gilly's baby for Mance's. One of the things he says about that child is that clearly nobody cares in the least what happens to him, except his mother, because the baby is nothing more than an "abomination" born of incest. Now, if that were Jon’s own story, if Benjen is his father, we would have not only a father who cares, but one who does a lot of wrong things for the right reasons, like saying "son" to him on his face and in a place where Ned and Robert were. More importantly, we would have a father who does things that one would expect to see from a mother. There are almost no loving fathers in this story, much less fathers willing to do anything for their children. I think that's interesting to see.

I think there are several indications in Ned's chapters that Jon's birth is something he doesn't want to talk about because of what it would mean for Robert and Cat, not Jon, the strongest indication is when he confronts Cersei, and she tells him that she would do anything for her children. As I said, there are plenty of mothers in this story, but few fathers willing to go to extreme limits for a son, those are things one expects from a woman, but almost never from a man.

We have to keep in mind that, for Ned, Robert is a brother and surely, having grown up together and in a strange place for both of them, they have had a much closer relationship than Ned had with Benjen, for example. Then there is the issue of hate, Ned finds it irrational that Robert still hates Rhaegar 15 years later because clearly, Ned forgot his own grudge. Once Lyanna died and Benjen joined the NW, Ned forgot all about it because it was clearly the healthiest thing for him and his family, so he doesn't understand why the king keeps insisting on a topic that, in Ned's opinion, is done.

It is completely forgetting about that subject that allowed Ned to build a home with Cat and a fairly healthy family, quite the opposite of the king's family or Viserys with his grudges. Clearly that's not to say that Benjen has forgotten or forgiven, and I think that's also very interesting to see, the Starks are supposed to be the best at revenge, you don’t use “winter is coming” as your words because you’re all nice and forgiving, and personally I would very much like to read a story of a revenge well-planned and better executed. If, as I believe, Jon is posed as Brandon's son, then we would be in the presence of an absolutely ruthless revenge in which neither Benjen nor Jon ever gets their hands blooded. Those who go to war are "the others", those who declare independence are "the others", those who bleed are "the others" and once they are as wounded as Jon was in Winterfell, "Brandon" shows up to finish them off. Ned's white reputation is done, and so any dispute over Winterfell, and of course, "The Others" disappear from history again, except for one woman, the "corpse queen" Arya, with whom the LC was in love.

Sorry for this eternal answer! But I really love to talk about this!

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33 minutes ago, Seams said:

Very nice! Lots of fresh insights here and great citations from the books. Thank you for putting this together. 

I particularly like two of the parallels you highlight. First:

I am in agreement with your "Jaime is Jon; Jon is Jaime" point (although forgive me if I oversimplify by putting it that way). To me, the strong implication here is that Jafer Flowers is a parallel for Jaime: Flowers is the bastard name from the westerlands, where Casterly Rock and the Lannisters are the wardens. Of course, Jaime also loses a hand, as Jafer does before his attack on the brothers at Castle Black.

With your section heading, "Waymar’s blue Flowers," I think you were also making the comparison to the blue flowers growing from a chink in the wall, symbols associated with Lyanna Stark and with Jon Snow. (As well as the winter roses in the Bael the Bard legend.) Your thorough documenting of the blue eyes of the wights/Others, and excellent linking of the eyes to ice/Ice (the sword Ice) reminds me of another important player in the blue eyes symbolism: Brienne of Tarth.

So Brienne is equivalent to the Others?

Brienne is Catelyn's sworn sword, but Catelyn assigns her to guard the hostage Jaime for the trip to King's Landing. Of course, Brienne and Jaime develop a unique bond and Jaime later gives Brienne a sword that contains material from the sword Ice as well as "Lannister crimson" steel magically combined into one blade by Tobho Mott. 

It's as if Jaime is wielding the blade that is Brienne; or maybe Catelyn and Jaime are fighting for control of the blade. Or maybe they are magically combined into one blade.

Your good "Jafer is Jon; Jon is Jaime" insight, along with Jaime's observation about Arthur Dayne's skilled swordsmanship as a match for the prowess shown by the wighted Jafer, also suggests that we should revisit the Dayne / Payne / Reyne wordplay GRRM has set before us. Jaime was knighted by Arthur Dayne but he loses his sword hand (and, as you point out, the hand that slayed Aerys and pushed Bran from the Old Keep). He then "exhumes" Ser Ilyn Payne from the King's Landing dungeon and learns to fight again using his opposite hand. 

Among your many good insights, this is the second point that really appeals to me:

I would further note that the Brandon / Littlefinger duel is similar in many ways to the "trial by combat" between Ser Duncan the Tall and Ser Lucas Longinch. There is symbolism in that conflict that juxtaposes Ser Lucas as both the father of Dunk and as a member of the Night's Watch. Because of the acknowledged link between Dunk and Brienne, this might be another iteration of the conflict between winter / darkness / the Others and the Night's Watch. 

There was a recent thread that helped to bring to light the symbolic importance of Mance's shredded / repaired cloak. I think it ties into your point about the twelve stab wounds in Ser Waymar's cloak as well as the twelve stab wounds that Brandon inflicts on Littlefinger. Of course, Mance's cloak was torn when he was attacked and nearly killed by a shadow cat - a symbolic Catelyn, who is known as Cat. The "shadow" aspect of this cat could allude to Catelyn in her post-death phase, when she become Lady Stoneheart. 

A few of my interpretations differ from yours but you have done a great job of putting together some important clues. Thank you for posting this!

Thank you so much for your kindness and great input! I agree with you that Brienne has some weird parallels with the others, and likely her oath to Cat has something to do here. 

Unfortunately, I haven't read the novellas, so I would trust your judgement there!  

Just a minor observation, isn't Flowers a name from the Reach? I could definitely be wrong here, I'm obsessed with the north so..haha

As for Mance, yes! absolutely I agree that the "shadowcat" is Cat, I can't remember when, but at some point Jon thinks that he's afraid that Ghost would think to face a shadowcat, because it would be dangerous even for a direwolf. That thought always made me smile because Cat was more dangerous to her family than any enemy. 

Thanks again!!!

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4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

@northern_amnesia I assumed "it should have been you" is meant to tell us Jon's third eye was supposed to be opened instead of Bran , though , I'm still not sure why:dunno: but Bran does seem to try to open Jon's third eye in aSoS (I think)... maybe Jaimie/Cersei's connected too , but I think it's kinda doubtful .  also , reading most of your threads I still get lost why you assume Jon needs to be Benjen's son but also needs to pose as Brandon's?  

You know, I always found weird that Jon saw Benjen's death in his "mind eye" while Bran was in a coma, he sees that when Benjen leaves, but once Bran wakes up seems like Jon looses whatever power he had until he goes to the mountains and has his "tree dream" which of course seems like Ned's tower dream, you have the tower (men from the shadow tower), the tree with a face (Hightower the white standing fierce) and of course the mountains. 

 

As for the Brandon I added that in a response before. The thing is most of Ned's children are still alive and the only way for Jon to get WF is either be proclaimed (like in the TV show) which I find unlikely, or be posed as Brandon's son, therefore with a better claim than his cousins. 

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38 minutes ago, northern_amnesia said:

Honestly, the thing with the incest is something I thought about a lot because it didn't make much sense to me either, but R+L never seemed right either.

Jon is indeed a product of incest, because, in my opinion, there's a very likely possibility that Lyanna and all of her siblings and her ancestors, the Starks starting from the children of Melantha Blackwood, were partially Targaryens, like this ->

Aegon IV + Melissa Blackwood = Mya Rivers (Bloodraven's sister) + Blackwood-husband = Melantha Blackwood, Betha Blackwood.

Betha married with Aegon V, and her sister Melantha married with a Stark, and the Starks from the next generations were cousins to the Targaryens that were Betha's descendants. So Rhaegar and Lyanna were third cousins. They were bloodrelated, so Jon is a product of incest, though not as close as sibling-incest.

There's a lot of interesting details in your OP, though the conclusion is wrong. Jon's father is definitely Rhaegar (too many clues point to this), not one of Lyanna's brothers.

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26 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Jon is indeed a product of incest, because, in my opinion, there's a very likely possibility that Lyanna and all of her siblings and her ancestors, the Starks starting from the children of Melantha Blackwood, were partially Targaryens, like this ->

Aegon IV + Melissa Blackwood = Mya Rivers (Bloodraven's sister) + Blackwood-husband = Melantha Blackwood, Betha Blackwood.

Betha married with Aegon V, and her sister Melantha married with a Stark, and the Starks from the next generations were cousins to the Targaryens that were Betha's descendants. So Rhaegar and Lyanna were third cousins. They were bloodrelated, so Jon is a product of incest, though not as close as sibling-incest.

There's a lot of interesting details in your OP, though the conclusion is wrong. Jon's father is definitely Rhaegar (too many clues point to this), not one of Lyanna's brothers.

Hi! thanks for your comments! I'm not sure where did you get that Mya Rivers was Melantha Blackwood's mother, could you please share your source? Thanks!

Likely the Blackwoods are related to both the Starks and the Targaryens, but that's far from incest. 

Of course I don't think that Rhaegar is his father, because most of the clues come from what people in the novels think, and they are wrong in a LOT of stuff, for instance, what they think of the wildlings, or what they think being a warg is, and so on. But of course, we'll have to wait.

Thanks again!!

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54 minutes ago, northern_amnesia said:

I'm not sure where did you get that Mya Rivers was Melantha Blackwood's mother, could you please share your source? Thanks!

It's my theory, not a fact.

Though the timing matches for them being mother and daughter, and there are multiple clues that point out to the possibility that the Starks and Targaryens were bloodrelated. That's why Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna as the mother for the third head of the dragon - because after Elia (who was a descendant of Daenerys Targaryen, wife of Maron Martell), Lyanna was Rhaegar's closest female blood-relative, and he needed a dragonseed-girl, to make with her a baby-"dragon", to fulfill the prophecy that the Dragon has three heads.

Look at the family tree of the Stark and Targaryens, and look at the dates in what time-period did they lived. The timing matches for Mya Rivers to be the mother of Melantha and Betha Blackwood. Also it makes sense that Mya married with one of her Blackwood-cousins, because Bloodraven and Blackwoods (his mother's family) had good relationship (I'm basing this on what was said about them in The Hedge Knight novel). And the marriages between cousins were a norm not only for Targs, but also for the people from the other Great Houses. For example - one of Jon Arryn's wives was his first cousin; Tywin Lannister's wife - Johanna, also was his first cousin; one of Cregan Stark's wives also was his cousin; and the parents of Ned and Lyanna - Rickard and Lyarra, also were cousins, etc. So it makes perfect sense that Aegon V had married with Betha Blackwood, despite her not even being from one of the Paramount Houses, like Martell, Tully, Stark or Baratheon. Betha and Aegon were cousins, she was one of Aegon IV's grandchildren (Aegon + Melissa = Mya + Blackwood-husband = Betha). Thus Betha was a good match for Aegon, because she was the King's descendant, same as was Egg himself.

Also - about how they met: in the end of The Mystery Knight novel, Dunk and Egg (Aegon V) were intending to go to Winterfell, that's when they became friends with the Starks, so when later Lord Stark married with Melantha Blackwood, Egg met Betha there, thru her older sister.

Additionally, there is a clue that Melissa Blackwood - Mya's mother and one of Aegon IV's mistresses, was a granddaughter of Cregan Stark. I think that Aegon's affair with Melissa was the reason why Cregan fought in a duel with Aemon the Dragonknight. Cregan wanted Aegon to end his relationship with Melissa, and thus he challenged him to a duel, and Aemon, as his brother's (and his King's) sworn shield, had to answer that challenge instead of Aegon. Cregan won, and then Aegon broke up with Melissa. Doesn't this make sense?

Also look at the pattern (if my theory is correct, then Mi(y)a/Mel-pattern is a clue that those four women were bloodrelated - mothers/daughters) -> Mariah Stark (one of the daughters of Cregan Stark and Alysanne Blackwood) - Melissa Blackwood - Mya Rivers - Melantha Blackwood.

It makes sense that Cregan's daughter - Mariah, had married with one of her mother's relatives, with her cousin - a Blackwood, and their daughter was Melissa Blackwood - mother of Melantha (who married with a Stark) and Betha (who married with a Targaryen).

Look at the timing from a different angle - Ned and Lyanna were from approximately the same generation as Rhaegar (a few years younger than him), so their parents were also from the same generations (Rickard and Lyarra, Aerys and Rhaella), then their grandparents (Edwyle Stark and Marna Locke, Jaehaerys and Shaera), their great-grandparents (Willam Stark and Melantha Blackwood, Aegon V and Betha Blackwood), thus the timing matches for Melantha and Betha being sisters. And it fits perfectly into the pattern that people from the Great Houses often married with their cousins. One of Cregan's daughters - Mariah, married with a member of her mother's House - a Blackwood, and their daughter was Melissa, who then had three bastard-children with the King, and then one of their daughters - Mya Rivers, also married with one of her Blackwood-relatives, and then one of her daughters married with her Stark-relative, and her younger sister married with her Targaryen-relative. If you look at the official family trees created by GRRM - he inserted stuff like that all over ASOIAF - everyone is someone's relative. For example, Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon also were bloodrelated (distant cousins), and they both were also distantly related to Jon Arryn. Catelyn and Brandon also were distant cousins, and so were Lyanna and Robert. That's why their families wanted to marry them.

I came to conclusion that Mya Rivers was Melantha Blackwood's mother, while I was following several unrelated trails of clues, and all those trails led me to the same conclusion. So I am absolutely sure in this theory, for me it's a near done fact.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

It's my theory, not a fact.

Though the timing matches for them being mother and daughter, and there are multiple clues that point out to the possibility that the Starks and Targaryens were bloodrelated. That's why Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna as the mother for the third head of the dragon - because after Elia (who was a descendant of Daenerys Targaryen, wife of Maron Martell), Lyanna was Rhaegar's closest female blood-relative, and he needed a dragonseed-girl, to make with her a baby-"dragon", to fulfill the prophecy that the Dragon has three heads.

Look at the family tree of the Stark and Targaryens, and look at the dates in what time-period did they lived. The timing matches for Mya Rivers to be the mother of Melantha and Betha Blackwood. Also it makes sense that Mya married with one of her Blackwood-cousins, because Bloodraven and Blackwoods (his mother's family) had good relationship (I'm basing this on what was said about them in The Hedge Knight novel). And the marriages between cousins were a norm not only for Targs, but also for the people from the other Great Houses. For example - one of Jon Arryn's wives was his first cousin; Tywin Lannister's wife - Johanna, also was his first cousin; one of Cregan Stark's wives also was his cousin; and the parents of Ned and Lyanna - Rickard and Lyarra, also were cousins, etc. So it makes perfect sense that Aegon V had married with Betha Blackwood, despite her not even being from one of the Paramount Houses, like Martell, Tully, Stark or Baratheon. Betha and Aegon were cousins, she was one of Aegon IV's grandchildren (Aegon + Melissa = Mya + Blackwood-husband = Betha). Thus Betha was a good match for Aegon, because she was the King's descendant, same as was Egg himself.

Also - about how they met: in the end of The Mystery Knight novel, Dunk and Egg (Aegon V) were intending to go to Winterfell, that's when they became friends with the Starks, so when later Lord Stark married with Melantha Blackwood, Egg met Betha there, thru her older sister.

Additionally, there is a clue that Melissa Blackwood - Mya's mother and one of Aegon IV's mistresses, was a granddaughter of Cregan Stark. I think that Aegon's affair with Melissa was the reason why Cregan fought in a duel with Aemon the Dragonknight. Cregan wanted Aegon to end his relationship with Melissa, and thus he challenged him to a duel, and Aemon, as his brother's (and his King's) sworn shield, had to answer that challenge instead of Aegon. Cregan won, and then Aegon broke up with Melissa. Doesn't this make sense?

Also look at the pattern (if my theory is correct, then Mi(y)a/Mel-pattern is a clue that those four women were bloodrelated - mothers/daughters) -> Mariah Stark (one of the daughters of Cregan Stark and Alysanne Blackwood) - Melissa Blackwood - Mya Rivers - Melantha Blackwood.

It makes sense that Cregan's daughter - Mariah, had married with one of her mother's relatives, with her cousin - a Blackwood, and their daughter was Melissa Blackwood - mother of Melantha (who married with a Stark) and Betha (who married with a Targaryen).

Look at the timing from a different angle - Ned and Lyanna were from approximately the same generation as Rhaegar (a few years younger than him), so their parents were also from the same generations (Rickard and Lyarra, Aerys and Rhaella), then their grandparents (Edwyle Stark and Marna Locke, Jaehaerys and Shaera), their great-grandparents (Willam Stark and Melantha Blackwood, Aegon V and Betha Blackwood), thus the timing matches for Melantha and Betha being sisters. And it fits perfectly into the pattern that people from the Great Houses often married with their cousins. One of Cregan's daughters - Mariah, married with a member of her mother's House - a Blackwood, and their daughter was Melissa, who then had three bastard-children with the King, and then one of their daughters - Mya Rivers, also married with one of her Blackwood-relatives, and then one of her daughters married with her Stark-relative, and her younger sister married with her Targaryen-relative. If you look at the official family trees created by GRRM - he inserted stuff like that all over ASOIAF - everyone is someone's relative. For example, Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon also were bloodrelated (distant cousins), and they both were also distantly related to Jon Arryn. Catelyn and Brandon also were distant cousins, and so were Lyanna and Robert. That's why their families wanted to marry them.

I came to conclusion that Mya Rivers was Melantha Blackwood's mother, while I was following several unrelated trails of clues, and all those trails led me to the same conclusion. So I am absolutely sure in this theory, for me it's a near done fact.

 

I honestly find hard to believe that a Stark and King would agree to marry a bastard's daughters, but of course I could be wrong, I honestly never thought much about the history behind each family except for some legends, so I'm no place to argue with you that clearly invested a lot time and thought into this. 

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20 hours ago, northern_amnesia said:

I honestly find hard to believe that a Stark and King would agree to marry a bastard's daughters

...

the history behind each family

Aegon IV on his deathbed legitimized all of his bastards, including Bloodraven and both of his sisters - Mya and Gwenys.

So those girls both were Princesses from the Royal family, and King Daeron's half-sisters, and the sisters of the King's Hand, so they both were desirable matches.

Even after Aegon's death Daeron II took care of his half-siblings. For example, he gave a tract of land with a right to raise there a castle, as a wedding gift to Daemon Blackfyre; he gave a post of Master of Coin and then also the King's Hand to Ambrose Butterwell, who in my opinion was one of Aegon's bastards, and the dragon egg that Aegon gave to the Butterwells (the one that was stolen in The Mystery Knight novel) is an evidence of that.

Thus it's likely that after their father's death both Mya and Gwenys were legitimized as Blackwoods. And legitimized bastards have the same rights as originaly legitimate children, thus they wouldn't have been considered as an undesirable candidates to marry with someone like the King's fourth youngest son, or Lord Stark's younger brother (Melantha Blackwood married with Willam Stark, whose older brother was the Head of their House at that time).

Ramsay Snow/Bolton is considered to be good enough to marry with "Arya Stark". Daemon I Blackfyre, despite being born as a bastard, was considered good enough to become a son-in-law for the Archon (ruler) of Tyrosh (Daemon's wife was Rohanne of Tyrosh - a Princess). One of the Targaryen Princes supposedly married with Sarah Snow - a bastard-sister of Cregan Stark. Willam (and his older brother Donnel, who was the Lord of their House) had an uncle who was a bastard - Lonnel Snow.

So I don't see a reason why would have Donnel Stark or King Maekar opposed to Willam's and Egg's marriages with the daughters of an ex-bastard/legitimized Mya (Rivers)-Blackwood, who also likely were the daughters of Lord Blackwood (because it makes sense if Mya married with her Blackwood-cousin, for the same reason as Jon Arryn married with his cousin, and why Walter Whent also married with his cousin).

~~~

Concerning Waymar Royce looking like Jon -> Willam Stark's wife - Melantha Blackwood, (possibly, if my theory is correct) was 1/4 Targaryen (a granddaughter of Aegon IV). They had two children - a son Edwyle, who continued House Stark, and a daughter - Jocelyn, who married with a Royce.

Thus Royces were carriers of the dragon-blood, and that's why the Others targeted Waymar. Because they hate "dragons". And Benjen Stark also was a carrier of Targaryen genes, so that's why they offed him too.

Based on their ages, it seems likely that Jon and Waymar were something like third cousins, because both of them (possibly) were great-great-grandchildren of Melantha Blackwood (that's if one of Jocelyn's granddaughters, either a Waynwood, or Corbray, or Templeton, or one of their grandchildren at certain point married back into House Royce. Which is the sort of stuff that is frequently done in ASOIAF. For example - Cregan Stark married with Alysanne Blackwood, then one of their descendants - Willam, also married with a Blackwood; Serena Stark married with Jon Umber, then one of their daughters also married with an Umber; one of Cregan's sons married with a Manderly, two generations later another Stark again married with a Manderly (to get back the Stark-genes to Winterfell); Beron married with Lora Royce, their granddaughter - Jocelyn Stark, also married with a Royce. Seems that Yohn Royce's wife and Waymar's mother was a sister of the current Lord Corbray, and a daughter of that daughter of Jocelyn Stark that married with a Corbray. Or something like that. My point is -> Waymar Royce was a dragonseed, and that's why the Others killed him).

On 2/22/2022 at 4:40 AM, northern_amnesia said:

because he had the “look of a Stark”, in fact he looked like Jon,

They both were carriers of the Stark and Targ-genes <- descendants of the Last Hero (Brandon the Builder), and descendants of Azor Ahai (who is an ancestor of the 40 Valyrian Dragonlords, including Targaryens <- at least there are clues concerning this in the World Book).

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Aegon IV on his deathbed legitimized all of his bastards, including Bloodraven and both of his sisters - Mya and Gwenys.

So those girls both were Princesses from the Royal family, and King Daeron's half-sisters, and the sisters of the King's Hand, so they both were desirable matches.

Even after Aegon's death Daeron II took care of his half-siblings. For example, he gave a tract of land with a right to raise there a castle, as a wedding gift to Daemon Blackfyre; he gave a post of Master of Coin and then also the King's Hand to Ambrose Butterwell, who in my opinion was one of Aegon's bastards, and the dragon egg that Aegon gave to the Butterwells (the one that was stolen in The Mystery Knight novel) is an evidence of that.

Thus it's likely that after their father's death both Mya and Gwenys were legitimized as Blackwoods. And legitimized bastards have the same rights as originaly legitimate children, thus they wouldn't have been considered as an undesirable candidates to marry with someone like the King's fourth youngest son, or Lord Stark's younger brother (Melantha Blackwood married with Willam Stark, whose older brother was the Head of their House at that time).

Ramsay Snow/Bolton is considered to be good enough to marry with "Arya Stark". Daemon I Blackfyre, despite being born as a bastard, was considered good enough to become a son-in-law for the Archon (ruler) of Tyrosh (Daemon's wife was Rohanne of Tyrosh - a Princess). One of the Targaryen Princes supposedly married with Sarah Snow - a bastard-sister of Cregan Stark. Willam (and his older brother Donnel, who was the Lord of their House) had an uncle who was a bastard - Lonnel Snow.

So I don't see a reason why would have Donnel Stark or King Maekar opposed to Willam's and Egg's marriages with the daughters of an ex-bastard/legitimized Mya (Rivers)-Blackwood, who also likely were the daughters of Lord Blackwood (because it makes sense if Mya married with her Blackwood-cousin, for the same reason as Jon Arryn married with his cousin, and why Walter Whent also married with his cousin).

~~~

Concerning Waymar Royce looking like Jon -> Willam Stark's wife - Melantha Blackwood, (possibly, if my theory is correct) was 1/4 Targaryen (a granddaughter of Aegon IV). They had two children - a son Edwyle, who continued House Stark, and a daughter - Jocelyn, who married with a Royce.

Thus Royces were carriers of the dragon-blood, and that's why the Others targeted Waymar. Because they hate "dragons". And Benjen Stark also was a carrier of Targaryen genes, so that's why they offed him too.

Based on their ages, it seems likely that Jon and Waymar were something like third cousins, because both of them (possibly) were great-great-grandchildren of Melantha Blackwood (that's if one of Jocelyn's granddaughters, either a Waynwood, or Corbray, or Templeton, or one of their grandchildren at certain point married back into House Royce. Which is the sort of stuff that is frequently done in ASOIAF. For example - Cregan Stark married with Alysanne Blackwood, then one of their descendants - Willam, also married with a Blackwood; Serena Stark married with Jon Umber, then one of their daughters also married with an Umber; one of Cregan's sons married with a Manderly, two generations later another Stark again married with a Manderly (to get back the Stark-genes to Winterfell); Beron married with Lora Royce, their granddaughter - Jocelyn Stark, also married with a Royce. Seems that Yohn Royce's wife and Waymar's mother was a sister of the current Lord Corbray, and a daughter of that daughter of Jocelyn Stark that married with a Corbray. Or something like that. My point is -> Waymar Royce was a dragonseed, and that's why the Others killed him).

They both were carriers of the Stark and Targ-genes <- descendants of the Last Hero (Brandon the Builder), and descendants of Azor Ahai (who is an ancestor of the 40 Valyrian Dragonlords, including Targaryens <- at least there are clues concerning this in the World Book).

But wouldn't Ashara Dayne be closer related to Rhaegar? Aemon had a Dayne mother, right?

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29 minutes ago, northern_amnesia said:

But wouldn't Ashara Dayne be closer related to Rhaegar? Aemon had a Dayne mother, right?

Yes, Egg's and Aemon's mother was Dyanna Dayne. Though, while it looks like Rhaegar and Lyanna were third cousins (thru Betha and Melantha, who were partial dragonseeds thru their maternal grandfather - Aegon IV), Rhaegar and the Daynes were something like fourth or fifth cousins, more distantly related to him than Lyanna, or the Baratheons.

If Betha and Melantha really were sisters, then Edwyle Stark was a first cousin to King Jaehaerys and Shaera, Rickard was a second cousin to Aerys and Queen Rhaella, so Rhaegar and Lyanna were third cousins, and Rhaegar and Robert to each other were second cousins, Ned and Robert were something like fourth cousins, same as the Daynes to Rhaegar (thru the Dayne-line).

What matters for the prophecy is not the blood of the Daynes, but the blood of the Targaryens. Rhaegar needed a bride with the blood of the dragons, and the Daynes had a Targaryen ancestor too far in the past -> (not a fact, also just a theory) it is known that the half-sister of Viserys II and Aegon III - Princess Rhaena Targaryen, had married with Garmund Hightower and had with him six daughters. And I think that those daughters married with the members of House Dayne, Dondarrion, Hightower, Arryn, Tully, and Tyrell. That's why all four sons of Daeron II married with women from those Houses - Dyanna Dayne, Jenna Dondarrion, Alys Arryn; also Egg wanted to marry one of his sons with Celia Tully, and Princess Shaera was supposed to marry with Lyonell Tyrell.

So Dyanna Dayne and her siblings, those that continued House Dayne, were descendants of Rhaena Targaryen, and that's thru whom Rhaegar was blood-related to Ashara, Arthur and Allirya.

Rhaena <- half-siblings -> Viserys II

Rhaena's daughter that married with a Dayne <- first cousins -> Aegon IV

Rhaena's grandchildren (including Dyanna Dayne) <- second cousins -> Daeron II

Dyanna Dayne and her siblings <- second cousins once removed -> Maekar

Dyanna's nephews and nieces <- third cousins once removed thru Targaryen-line and first cousins thru Dayne-line -> Egg

Jaehaerys and Shaera ->

Aerys and Rhaella ->

Rhaegar <- something like sixth cousins once removed thru Targ-line and fourth cousins thru the Dayne-line (or maybe third cousins once removed, or second cousins twice removed) -> the Daynes (Ashara).

GRRM wrote some of the family-lines in such a way that he used a shift in generations to hide the fact that certain people were contemporaries of other certain people. What I mean is that Viserys II, Jaehaerys II, and Aerys II - all three of them married and had children when they were very young, no older than 15. Because of that shift the readers have an incorrect impression about which characters lived in which time-periods and with whom could have been married. For example - Princess Rhaena got married way later than her half-brother Viserys II, so by the time when was born Aegon IV, she was still unwed and childless. So out of her six daughters three were close in age to Aegon's son - Daeron II, those girls that married with a Dayne, Dondarrion and Arryn, while the older three married with Hightower-cousin, with a Tully, and a Tyrell. So Dyanna Dayne, Jenna Dondarrion and Alys Arryn were second cousins of King Daeron II, and thus to his sons (who were the husbands of those girls) they were second cousins once removed. This "once removed" is that shift in generations that created muddy waters around when who lived. Probably additional shift in the family trees of the Targs and the Daynes could have occured when Jaehaerys married aged 15, and when Aerys did the same. So Rhaegar and Ashara could be either fourth cousins, or fourth cousins once removed, or fifth cousins, or fifth cousins once removed, or even fourth cousins twice removed, which is equal by blood to sixth cousins.

Thus Ashara was not Targaryen-enough. Lyanna's dragonblood was purer, and thus Rhaegar had chosen her to become the mother of his third child, to fulfill the requirements of the prophecy, and Lyanna had agreed to this. Considering that she was a partial dragonseed, it's likely that she had a gift of foresight, same as Rhaegar (who had prophetic dreams whenever he visited the ruins of Summerhall, and about which he wrote his sad sad songs). They both knew that they will die, and still they did what they had to, for the Promised Prince to be born, and to save humanity from extinction.

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