Jon-Snow Posted March 13, 2022 Share Posted March 13, 2022 (edited) Does everybody here licking Frey boots not remember that every Northern house lost members at the Red Wedding? The North Remembers, and at the risk of sounding callous, they did engineer the slaughter of potentially thousands of people... A few members dying doesn't remove that stain, and I certainly don't remember the "Dany is a fair and impartial judge" chapters??? Edited March 13, 2022 by Jon-Snow EggBlue, Groo, sweetsunray and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowen Marsh Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 Rhaegar Frey accompanied Ser Jared to the Manderly's. He was one of the victims of Manderly revenge. On 3/9/2022 at 2:29 PM, EggBlue said: isn't there a theory that Manderly killed , baked and ate him? anyways, it's totally possible that Manderly had given him a bad horse that gets him lost and eventually killed It is possible but that is not what happened. Rhaegar Frey was murdered. And eaten by the jolly fat guy. Rondo and M.Alhazred 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted March 15, 2022 Share Posted March 15, 2022 On 3/2/2022 at 4:34 AM, M.Alhazred said: Until the old man's head is on a pike nothing will be settled. The Starks see it that way. So sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted March 15, 2022 Share Posted March 15, 2022 The fan theory had Wayman give the men gifts of horses. The horses were suspect. The Freys were ambushed and killed. The trackers could not locate the men. Something about the horses. The horse shoes masked the scent and left little to no tracks. On 3/13/2022 at 4:40 PM, Jon-Snow said: Does everybody here licking Frey boots not remember that every Northern house lost members at the Red Wedding? The North Remembers, and at the risk of sounding callous, they did engineer the slaughter of potentially thousands of people... A few members dying doesn't remove that stain, and I certainly don't remember the "Dany is a fair and impartial judge" chapters??? Jon Snow, those who died at the wedding were themselves killers and murderers. They were warriors who had blood on their hands. Cat killed the only innocent person in the hall. She kills two more of Walder’s boys. Northern Sword, EggBlue and Jaenara Belarys 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted March 15, 2022 Share Posted March 15, 2022 I guess I'm just not seeing why Dany would care one way or the other about the Frey-Stark feud unless one house or the other ends up pledging to her. To her they're just the usuper's dogs fighting amongst themselves. Aejohn the Conqueroo and Jaenara Belarys 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 15, 2022 Share Posted March 15, 2022 13 hours ago, Darth Sidious said: The fan theory had Wayman give the men gifts of horses. The horses were suspect. The Freys were ambushed and killed. The trackers could not locate the men. Something about the horses. The horse shoes masked the scent and left little to no tracks. That is not how it works, but you people are as stuck on your own thinking even more than North Koreans on their propaganda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted March 15, 2022 Share Posted March 15, 2022 18 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said: It is possible but that is not what happened. Rhaegar Frey was murdered. And eaten by the jolly fat guy. Where does it say that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted March 15, 2022 Share Posted March 15, 2022 18 hours ago, Darth Sidious said: The fan theory had Wayman give the men gifts of horses. The horses were suspect. The Freys were ambushed and killed. The trackers could not locate the men. Something about the horses. The horse shoes masked the scent and left little to no tracks. Horseshoes are well known for leaving tracks. Not that it matters in this case, by the time the Boltons sent out searchers any trace of the ambush would have been long obscured by Manderly's army overriding them, and by oncoming winter. The reason the Guest Gift was horses specifically is that this gave the Freys freedom to depart Manderly's column. If he had given a cyvasse set, then the Freys would not have had fast transport and would have been stuck with the clumnt, blurring the line on whether Manderly had truly stopped being their host. Jaenara Belarys and Northern Sword 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 15, 2022 Share Posted March 15, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said: Where does it say that? It's a theory and as baseless as everything else they say. Or at least baseless when they say it. Anyone one else, I'd prolly consider it. Edited March 15, 2022 by Jaenara Belarys EggBlue and Aejohn the Conqueroo 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rondo Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 The Frey pie theory is only a theory. I haven't seen confirmation from Martin. I think it happened but it may never ever get confirmation. It makes a cannibal of Wayman Manderly. He and Rickon can just tuck in. Rickon is used to the taste of humans by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Rondo said: Rickon is used to the taste of humans by now. How do you know that? A few lines about cannibals doesn't mean everyone is a cannibal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 Regarding the Frey pie. By design, the author doesn't give direct answers to many of the questions he has posed for readers. In some situations, he intends the ambiguity as part of the story: just as the Celtic hero and demigod Cú Chulainn had three fathers, GRRM will not clarify whether Tyrion is a chimera, for instance. In other cases, GRRM does offer clues. One anagram example I've offered elsewhere is in the second nickname given to Aemon "The Dragonknight" Targaryen. Is he the actual father of King Daeron II, who was the heir of Aegon IV? For one tourney, Aemon is known as The Knight of Tears. Anagram: Knight of Tears = Father to Kings. GRRM seems to go to some trouble to set up another possible hint for us. Remember the scene where Jaime and his cousin discuss the upcoming arranged marriage between the cousin and a Frey bride? Quote "If my choice is Freys or freckles, well . . . half of Lord Walder's brood look like stoats." "Only half? Be thankful. I saw Lancel's bride at Darry." ... When Jaime had taken his leave of Lady Amerei, she had been weeping softly at the dissolution of her marriage whilst letting Lyle Crakehall console her. Her tears had not troubled him half so much as the hard looks on the faces of her kin as they stood about the yard. "I hope you do not intend to take vows as well, coz," he said to Daven. "The Freys are prickly where marriage contracts are concerned. I would hate to disappoint them again." Ser Daven snorted. "I'll wed and bed my stoat, never fear. I know what happened to Robb Stark. From what Edwyn tells me, though, I'd best pick one who hasn't flowered yet, or I'm like to find that Black Walder has been there first. I'll wager he's had Gatehouse Ami, and more than thrice. Maybe that explains Lancel's godliness, and his father's mood." The Frey comparison to stoats seems to be confined to this conversation between Daven and Jaime - it is not mentioned elsewhere, that I can recall. Of course, it is likely part of the larger set of symbols around Waymar's sable cloak or Arya calling herself Weasel or wanting to be a pink otter. (Note: if the Freys are like the sables in Waymar's cloak, this could confirm that their heads will be twisted off by the time the series is finished: Gared speculated that Ser Waymar personally beheaded each sable to make his garment. If the wordplay is correct around "First Ranger = Fur Stranger," a Night's Watch ranger who wears furs could be associated with the grim reaper archetype.) Similar to the indication about Aemon's paternity, the following anagram could give us a clue about Manderly's relationship to the missing Frey messengers: Too Fat To Sit A Horse = Forsooth I Eat Stoat Of course, there may be other messages in Manderly's nickname - GRRM works in layers and he enjoys linking plot lines and back stories that might not seem related on the surface. Manderly is a character with a major role to play, in my opinion. He and Asha Greyjoy are going to be important in the last two books, I suspect. As for Rickon eating human flesh, this may be another area where GRRM prefers to allow us to speculate. The best answer we may get comes from Bran's story, where he eats vicariously through his direwolf. When Summer eats human flesh, Bran can taste it. Jojen urges him to eat real food and tells him he cannot survive by warging his wolf while the animal eats. But Bran doesn't particularly want real food - he seems to kinda like what Summer eats. We also suspect that Coldhands prepares a meal with the flesh of the Night's Watch mutineers who killed Craster and Jeor Mormont. And we may or may not get an answer about Jojen paste in the next book - I suspect this is another area where the author wants us to ponder the ambiguity and the implications without providing a definitive, literal answer. EggBlue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 16 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said: It's a theory and as baseless as everything else they say. Or at least baseless when they say it. Anyone one else, I'd prolly consider it. Sometimes it bothers me that people throw these things around without supplying any textual evidence at all. I want to say 'you read it on a webpage and believed it because you liked it'... but I'm probably guilty of that sometimes too ( I read something the other day that made me question Jojen paste and I don't know what I believe anymore). Yeah, Rhaegar might have ended up in the pie but if someone's going to tell me it happened for certain, I want to see some support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 (edited) On 2/26/2022 at 4:52 AM, M.Alhazred said: It's not enough. Not nearly enough. Cat, GW, and Robb died. Three Starks. Only three. More of the Freys family have been killed. It’s enough. The Starks got their revenge. Edited March 16, 2022 by Moiraine Sedai Rondo and The Lord of the Crossing 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 15 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said: Cat, GW, and Robb died. Three Starks. Only three. More of the Freys family have been killed. It’s enough. The Starks got their revenge. The Starks never got their revenge. When the Freys and their men and the Lannisters have been lured under a false sense of forgiveness and peace, than ambushed, murdered, and taken hostage maybe than it’ll be enough. Until than not enough Freys have been killed. And the Twins need to be burned to the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said: Cat, GW, and Robb died. Three Starks. Only three. More of the Freys family have been killed. It’s enough. The Starks got their revenge. The Starks (specifically Lady Stoneheart's wing of the BwB) killed Ser Ryman and his escort after he was dismissed from the siege of Riverrun. But they are mostly busy with other concerns. The revenge against the Freys isn't being directed by the Starks; it's organic and disparate. For Manderly the Starks are only of secondary concern, he wants revenge for his son Wendel, murdered at the feast. The BwB care for the comman man and are probably as upset about the deaths of the hundreds of Stark men in the tents as the highborn with the Stark name. We also see a difference in methods. Manderly was careful to obey the laws of the gods by not breaking guest right even as he broke common decency by eating Frey Pie with the the tale of the Rat Cook playing. Elsewhere death and guestright. They don't mean as much as they used to, neither one. Whats common with all the Frey deaths is they are happening in lands officially controlled by allies of the Freys, on quiet roads and in remote spots. No edict from the Starks or King Aegon or Queen Daenerys is going to quell secret murders by those inclined to take revenge, even after peace is nominally achieved. Anyone identifed as a Frey is always going to be at risk if they travel with too small an escort. So their best chance of survival is to not be identifed as Freys. Which is likely to be dependant not only on an individuals innocence/complicity with the RW, but also on their various non-Frey relatives. I can imagine See Perwyn & Olyvar ('good Freys') surviving if they get the Rosby inheritance. But would the Leffords take in Lame Lothar's children by his Lefford wife? Would Ser Whelen Frey (half-Blackwood) & his offspring be welcome at Raventree Hall? Edited March 16, 2022 by Buried Treasure Groo and EggBlue 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 On 3/14/2022 at 11:11 PM, Darth Sidious said: Jon Snow, those who died at the wedding were themselves killers and murderers. They were warriors who had blood on their hands. Cat killed the only innocent person in the hall. She kills two more of Walder’s boys. There is a difference between warriors with blood on their hands & slaughtering wedding guests, no? Otherwise why would we even talk about the RW? If it were the equivalent to a battle there wouldn't be much to discuss. Northern Sword 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 18 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said: Cat, GW, and Robb died. Three Starks. Only three. More of the Freys family have been killed. It’s enough. The Starks got their revenge. Not only Starks died... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon-Snow Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 On 3/14/2022 at 11:11 PM, Darth Sidious said: Jon Snow, those who died at the wedding were themselves killers and murderers. They were warriors who had blood on their hands. Cat killed the only innocent person in the hall. She kills two more of Walder’s boys. No? they were soldiers. "killers" and "murderers" are criminals, breaking The Kings Peace. King Robb deals with murderers in his army, just ask Lord Karstark. my larger point was to the posters who seemed to have some fantasy of Daenerys passing judgement on House Frey, and for some weird reason saying how fair and reasoned she is, when she's a very mercurial personality? House Frey plotted "murder", and those that participated in the Red Wedding are "killers"... I doubt Dany would sympathize with a universally despised house, that violated one of the most sacred rites, plotted with Tywin Lannister. Lyanna<3Rhaegar and Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Jon-Snow said: my larger point was to the posters who seemed to have some fantasy of Daenerys passing judgement on House Frey, Such as the person you speak to now. Let them live in their own fantasy world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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