Hope for the Frey family

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

This reminds me of the view some English aristocrats and politicians had (and perhaps still have...) towards Scottish people (and plenty of others). And you make this claim despite mounds of evidence to the contrary in the books. I'm not really surprised, but I would think that perhaps more thought would go into the kind of impression you give others, which is that of a possessor of bigoted and illogical and ridiculous views.

Yes to all of this. And also worth mentioning is the constant use of double standards... 'The Starks and the north are barbaric', but the Dothraki are gentlemen with kind and forgiving hearts.

[Corvo the Crow]

31 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes to all of this. And also worth mentioning is the constant use of double standards... 'The Starks and the north are barbaric', but the Dothraki are gentlemen with kind and forgiving hearts.

Hey! Dothraki respect women and put them in high places in government, does Starks do any such thing? I highly doubt it.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Walder Frey’s true motivation for the Red Wedding was avenging Cregan Stark stealing Sabitha Frey’s girlfriend 

[Nevets]

I would get rid of the main leadership for the Red Wedding: Lord Walder, Black Walder, Lame Lothar, etc.  As for the rest, build a couple of nice, big bridges across the Green Fork that are free to cross.  Cut off their income.

The remaining Freys can either find honest work or live in penury, once they've used up their savings.  Which considering how many of them there are, won't go very far.

[GZ Bloodraven]

On 2/22/2022 at 6:29 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

I want to shine a ray of hope for the Frey family and their supporters.  The Freys will not all die.  I do not believe they will all die and they do not deserve to.  But this cannot be said with certainty because I am not Martin.  The fate of House Frey will depend on who holds power.  If it's the Starks, it's goodnight to House Frey.  We already know what Arya Stark would do. Murder all of the Freys she can.  Arya is just demented enough to poison the entire family.  At least she would make the attempt.  The family will fare no better if it's Jon Snow who gets to decide their fate.  Jon was not a forgiving man even before he was assassinated.  He will be thirsting for Bolton, Marsh, and Frey blood when he returns. 

There is hope for the Freys.  The following passage is a quote from one of Daenerys Targaryen's chapters in A Clash of Kings. 

Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood.  Some had lost limbs, even heads.  Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread.  In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf.  He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

This is a scene from the red wedding and the man asking for justice is Robb Stark.  Daenerys Targaryen will take control of Westeros and ascend to her father's throne.  The throne which is hers by right.  The Starks will demand revenge on the Freys and might even make it a condition to peace.  Daenerys will moderate with objectivity, intelligence, and thus fairness.  She will restrain the Starks from carrying out a complete destruction of the Freys.  Lame and Black Walder will lose their heads to the axe.  The lord of the house, Walder, will be spared because of his age.  A few of the sons may also receive the death penalty.  But at least the Frey family will remain largely intact. 

Who are Frey family supporters? I have never met a single person who supports House Frey. Most of the Frey's are married off: there are literally too many to kill. Most also are now children of those from other houses: the whole point of these marriages is alliances and the other houses would defend the Freys. They'll be fine, Sabitha's line needs to survive somehow.

Walder's gonna die bud. Walder's 92 years old, his heart won't take seeing a dragon. Also the throne is Aegon's by right, Jon's after that, then Dany's. She won't have to worry about the Freys though: they'll be fighting amongst themselves for control of the Twins. Imagine the War of the Twins, cousin on cousin, brother on brother, son on father. In the end, only Joyeuse's newborn babe will survive before unhinged, demented, craaaazy Arya gets to him. 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 2/25/2022 at 11:03 AM, BlackLightning said:

I do think that all the Freys will die out. But I don't think they will all be murdered or whatever. I think the Freys are going to kill themselves.

We're already headed towards a Frey civil war. There are way too many Freys and not enough inheritances

Why in the world would she spare the lord of the house but kill multiple trueborn sons and bastards? And on account of age? Of all things?

You've got to be joking. His head would be the first to be put on a spike.

Big Walder? That little monstrosity?

Come on...

 

A big civil war that destroys the family is a wish coming from the staunch fans of the Starks but it is not likely to happen.  A family dispute will certainly happen as a few will try to succeed Lord Walder but it need not lead to many deaths.  There are only a few of the boys who are in position to assume the lordship of the family lands. The fight will be limited to the sons with strong claims.  I hope the succession will be negotiated with limited casualties to the family. 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 3/24/2023 at 2:50 AM, GZ Bloodraven said:

 

Walder's gonna die bud. Walder's 92 years old, his heart won't take seeing a dragon. Also the throne is Aegon's by right, Jon's after that, then Dany's. She won't have to worry about the Freys though: they'll be fighting amongst themselves for control of the Twins. Imagine the War of the Twins, cousin on cousin, brother on brother, son on father. In the end, only Joyeuse's newborn babe will survive before unhinged, demented, craaaazy Arya gets to him. 

I disagree with you, bud.  Aegon is a Blackfyre who does not have a dragon.  The majority will doubt his claim.  Jon Snow, even if he is the son of Rhaegar, is a bastard and publicly known as the oath-breaker at the Wall.  He will find it very difficult to find supporters.  Viserys was the last of the Targaryen kings and Daenerys is his heir.  Even much more important than a claim are the dragons.  She has the overwhelming symbol of Targaryen power and heritage. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by James Fenimore Cooper XXII

[kissdbyfire]

5 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

I disagree with you, bud.  Aegon is a Blackfyre who does not have a dragon.  The majority will doubt his claim.  Jon Snow, even if he is the son of Rhaegar, is a bastard and publicly known as the oath-breaker at the Wall.  He will find it very difficult to find supporters.  Viserys was the last of the Targaryen kings and Daenerys is his heir.  Even much more important than a claim are the dragons.  She has the overwhelming symbol of Targaryen power and heritage. 

Viserys was never king. Aerys may have named him his heir but he never ascended the throne. 

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

I disagree with you, bud.  Aegon is a Blackfyre who does not have a dragon.  The majority will doubt his claim.  Jon Snow, even if he is the son of Rhaegar, is a bastard and publicly known as the oath-breaker at the Wall.  He will find it very difficult to find supporters.  Viserys was the last of the Targaryen kings and Daenerys is his heir.  Even much more important than a claim are the dragons.  She has the overwhelming symbol of Targaryen power and heritage. 

Nobody in-universe condemns Robb or Jon as oath-breakers.

Everybody who has an opinion on the Freys despises them completely.  Even their own allies despise them.

So, why do you invent opinions that nobody in-universe actually holds?

[Groo]

15 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

A big civil war that destroys the family is a wish coming from the staunch fans of the Starks but it is not likely to happen.  A family dispute will certainly happen as a few will try to succeed Lord Walder but it need not lead to many deaths.  There are only a few of the boys who are in position to assume the lordship of the family lands. The fight will be limited to the sons with strong claims.  I hope the succession will be negotiated with limited casualties to the family. 

Setting aside all this Red Wedding discussion, Black Walder is close to the top. I don't need to make general statements about the Freys in order to think that he is more than willing to off family members to become Lord Frey. Maybe he can pull it off with "limited casualties to the family", but I don't need to be staunch Stark fan to think a fight is coming.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 4/20/2023 at 7:17 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Viserys was never king. Aerys may have named him his heir but he never ascended the throne. 

George thinks so.  He described Viserys as the Beggar King.  Meaning Viserys was the king by rights.  Queen Rhaella crowned Viserys as the King of Westeros on Dragonstone.  The right to rule Westeros transferred from Aerys to Viserys and then to Daenerys. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

I would bet on Lothar over Black Walder this time.  Lothar is the clever one. 

[kissdbyfire]

22 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

George thinks so.  He described Viserys as the Beggar King.  Meaning Viserys was the king by rights. 
 

Does he? Viserys being called “Beggar King” is just people taking the piss, you get that, right? Or do you think people would address him like that? “His Grace the Beggar King!”, I’m sure he would have loved that. And no, he wasn’t the king by rights. 

22 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Queen Rhaella crowned Viserys as the King of Westeros on Dragonstone.  The right to rule Westeros transferred from Aerys to Viserys and then to Daenerys. 

She did, after Aerys was already dead and the Targaryens weren’t in power anymore, so it’s meaningless. 

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

I would bet on Lothar over Black Walder this time.  Lothar is the clever one. 

Lothar is something like 50th in the Frey line of succession. And while many of those above him are children who could be easily shuffled out of the way, he still has a lot of surviving older brothers plus Black Walder himself, as well as Emmon's family who have a close Lannister alliance and aren't going to be trivially eliminated.

Black Walder on the other hand only has Edmyn and Walda (a ten-year-old girl) in front of him. Unless someone eliminates him first, Black Walder is surely the favourite to take the Twins after Old Walder finally dies, and Lothar's best bet would be to make nice with him to secure his position there.

[Northern Sword]

On 4/20/2023 at 12:52 AM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

A big civil war that destroys the family is a wish coming from the staunch fans of the Starks but it is not likely to happen.  A family dispute will certainly happen as a few will try to succeed Lord Walder but it need not lead to many deaths.  There are only a few of the boys who are in position to assume the lordship of the family lands. The fight will be limited to the sons with strong claims.  I hope the succession will be negotiated with limited casualties to the family. 

While I don't think the Frey's will completely self destruct. They are not exactly a picture of unity. This will not be a peaceful transition. There will most certainly be an internal fight for the Frey seat.

A lot of Frey's will die in this Frey civil war. Many will die, whole branches very well may be wiped out. So, not destroyed, certainly weakened though.

The Frey's destruction will come after, by an external force.

Wolves are prowling the Frey lands. 

The North remembers, and winter is coming.

[Daeron the Daring]

I'm just waiting for Arya to reunite with Elmar at some point. It's just bound to happen, and he's one of the Freys who doesn't have to do anything with the Red Wedding. Plus, he was nice to her (most of the time).

Edited April 25, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 4/24/2023 at 8:59 AM, Northern Sword said:

While I don't think the Frey's will completely self destruct. They are not exactly a picture of unity. This will not be a peaceful transition. There will most certainly be an internal fight for the Frey seat.

A lot of Frey's will die in this Frey civil war. Many will die, whole branches very well may be wiped out. So, not destroyed, certainly weakened though.

The Frey's destruction will come after, by an external force.

Wolves are prowling the Frey lands. 

The North remembers, and winter is coming.

The Lord Walder's hired huntsmen may yet find the direwolf and eliminate her.  I can hope.  A destruction is not deserved. 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 4/20/2023 at 7:29 AM, SeanF said:

Nobody in-universe condemns Robb or Jon as oath-breakers.

Lord Walder condemned Robb.  The north now knows it was Jon who sent Mance and brokered the transfer of Karstark properties to the Wildlings.  Jon is a publicly known oathbreaker. 

On 4/20/2023 at 7:29 AM, SeanF said:

Everybody who has an opinion on the Freys despises them completely.  Even their own allies despise them.

So, why do you invent opinions that nobody in-universe actually holds?

 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

4 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The Lord Walder's hired huntsmen may yet find the direwolf and eliminate her.  I can hope.  A destruction is not deserved. 

It is

[Northern Sword]

On 5/14/2023 at 4:16 AM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The Lord Walder's hired huntsmen may yet find the direwolf and eliminate her.  I can hope.  A destruction is not deserved. 

Destruction is deserved, and is on the way. The Frey's are doomed.

Guest right, when invoked, neither the guest nor the host can harm the other for the length of the guest's stay. For either to do so would be to break a sacred covenant that is believed to invoke the wrath of the gods, both old and new. Even robber lords and wreckers are bound by the ancient laws of hospitality.

This is arguable the single most sacred covenant in the books. It is covered in every single book.

Funny, it's almost like you have never read the books.