Hope for the Frey family

[Moiraine Sedai]

It can be described as a suicide bomb. But the Freys and Roose did not know. Or they knew but had no other way to beat Robb.  

[Seams]

On 4/4/2022 at 3:04 PM, Hugorfonics said:

 . . . in the books nobody has blue eyes but wights, so maybe it's different. Like Mel and her ruby maybe?

There are other blue eyes in the books and I think they would conflict with the theory you propose. 

Tullys as well as Catelyn's children:

Catelyn had always thought Robb looked like her; like Bran and Rickon and Sansa, he had the Tully coloring, the auburn hair, the blue eyes. (AGoT, Catelyn III)

Renly:

In their midst, watching and laughing with his young queen by his side, sat a ghost in a golden crown.

Small wonder the lords gather around him with such fervor, she thought, he is Robert come again. Renly was handsome as Robert had been handsome; long of limb and broad of shoulder, with the same coal-black hair, fine and straight, the same deep blue eyes, the same easy smile. (ACoK, Catelyn II)

Brienne:

Brienne's eyes were large and very blue, a young girl's eyes, trusting and guileless (ACoK, Catelyn II)

Brienne looked at her with those blue and beautiful eyes. (ACoK, Catelyn VI)

If we are supposed to take eye color as a clue, the Freys and Roose Bolton would not be the symbolic wights; the Tullys, Brienne and several of Catelyns blue-eyed children would be. Like the wights, Catelyn wakes up from death and seems single-minded in her focus on killing the people who killed her (and her blue-eyed son). 

As for Melisandre's ruby, I am starting to ponder a new line of thinking. I had already figured that ruby and bury would be a wordplay pair but didn't know where to go with that. The rubies from the breastplate of Rhaegar's armor finally helped me to a new idea: what if rubies represent nipples? We are so often reminded that nipples on a breastplate are useless that I have long suspected they actually ARE important - the author likes irony and this is the kind of hint he would drop. We see nipples cut off of an Unsullied soldier and off of Khal Drogo in his battle wound that leads to his final illness. We also know that being a "milk brother" is something notable and that wet nurses are recruited for some babies whose mothers have died. Ser Duncan the Tall dreams of seeing Rohanne Webber's nipples while she shoots him full of arrows. (This is a complicated set of symbols but my point here is that Dunk is transformed after this dream and able to cross from one reality to another, leading to a resolution of the Webber / Osgrey conflict.)

Maybe this is not the thread for this discussion but I think nipples (represented by rubies) and/or breastfeeding might have the power to transition someone from one state of being to another. Returning to the wights / Frey topic, when Ser Aliser Thorne comes to King's Landing, Tyrion wants to give shovels to the Night's Watch so they can bury their dead and prevent them from coming back to life. If this is ruby / bury wordplay, it could be telling us that while rubies allow dead people (Mance is supposed to be dead) to become glamors, burial is the step that prevents some of them from waking again. (Dead Tullys are always burned in rivers, which may allow them to wake again. Big mistake by the Freys, throwing Catelyn in a river.) 

When I say "some" people are permanently dead after burial, I am remembering that Ygritte tells Jon Snow that dead people beyond the wall have to be burned in a pyre or eaten by a shadow cat that cracks their bones. These are the only ways to prevent them from being wighted. So this may be a difference between ice wights and fire wights. Ygritte's advice might also show that Tyrion doesn't know everything: his burial advice might work to prevent fire wights from reviving, but would apparently not be effective on ice wights.

Similarly, I wonder whether ice wights never get a chance to breast feed. When Craster takes his sons into the woods as offerings for the Others, maybe each baby is denied the normal opportunity to suckle at his mother's breast.

When Jon Snow is climbing the mountain behind Stonesnake and (I believe, although I may be misremembering) Sansa is descending the mountain with Mya Stone, they are told that the mountain is their mother and they should press their cheeks against their mother's breast. This could be symbolic breastfeeding and represent a transitional moment for each of them. 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Seams

[Northern Sword]

I personally don't think there is an abundance of hope for the Frey's. They will be whittled down at every turn. BWB, Stoneheart, Starks and the Northern Lords, Tully's and the Riverland Lords, they all want to see the down fall of this house. Piece by piece they will be eliminated. One branch may survive, but they will be greatly reduced in power. The only "friend" they have in the Lannister's will not stick their neck out for them(they have their own problems). No Lords of the Vale will give them the time of day either.

They are done, they just don't know it yet.

[Moiraine Sedai]

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

I personally don't think there is an abundance of hope for the Frey's. They will be whittled down at every turn. BWB, Stoneheart, Starks and the Northern Lords, Tully's and the Riverland Lords, they all want to see the down fall of this house. Piece by piece they will be eliminated. One branch may survive, but they will be greatly reduced in power. The only "friend" they have in the Lannister's will not stick their neck out for them(they have their own problems). No Lords of the Vale will give them the time of day either.

They are done, they just don't know it yet.

I agree. I don’t like it but their hopes are few. Too bad. The Freys are cool. 

[Evolett]

I suspect the song of the Rat Cook begun by Wyman Manderly with the Frey pies will continue to its bitter end. Walder Frey will become the Rat Cook who is cursed to eat his many children. I can see the Riverland Freys, including the "Late Lord Walder," trapped and sealed off in one of their twin towers and left to starve. Cannibalism will be the only option to hang on to life. Walder Frey is described as looking like a vulture in one passage, a carrion bird and he might just end up "feasting" like one. Lady Stoneheart would be my candidate for organising this feast, or maybe Arya, since Catelyn calls for Mercy during the slaughter. 

Back in Winterfell, I think the feast on the dead may play out differently, this one modelled on the story of the brothers Gendel and Gorne. With winter coming down hard on the North, especially around Winterfell, Big Walder (who knows where the entrance to the crypts is) may attempt to lead some Freys and Boltons down through the crypts and into the larger caverns to safety. But like Gendel's children, they will be forever lost in the darkness. And as Ygritte put it "Gendel's children are always hungry."

Edited May 3, 2022 by Evolett
Small addition

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

On 5/1/2022 at 3:22 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The red wedding was a war strategy to get rid of a rebellious lord who got into his head to declare a portion of Westeros as his own kingdom.  It may have saved a lot of loyalists' lives.  Many more lives on both sides would have been lost if they had fought a traditional battle. 

Thousands of people lost their lives at the Red Wedding.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

The debt of the Red Wedding isn’t paid until those that planned are dead full stop. Walder Frey will die, hopefully painfully, and the rest of his family will “eat each other” fighting over his title. All the whole Lady Stoneheart and Arya whittle them down, and if the survive as a noble house long enough Dany will finish them off to buy herself some good grace with the Westerosi. Considering how the majority of Westeros will hate her when she gets there, she’ll need the good PR.

[Rondo]

On 5/5/2022 at 11:44 AM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Thousands of people lost their lives at the Red Wedding.

Thousands of people lost their lives during Robb Stark's rebellion.  Thousands died because Catelyn wanted justice for Bran.  Thousands will starve because the bank will no longer extend credit to Westeros after Arya murdered the envoy's personal guard.  

[Rondo]

On 5/1/2022 at 5:22 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The red wedding was a war strategy to get rid of a rebellious lord who got into his head to declare a portion of Westeros as his own kingdom.  It may have saved a lot of loyalists' lives.  Many more lives on both sides would have been lost if they had fought a traditional battle. 

Less innocent lives lost.  RW limited casualties to the innocents.  Most who died were soldiers and killers.

[Corvo the Crow]

8 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Thousands of people lost their lives during Robb Stark's rebellion.  Thousands died because Catelyn wanted justice for Bran.  Thousands will starve because the bank will no longer extend credit to Westeros after Arya murdered the envoy's personal guard.  

Dany killed tens of thousands of freeborn Astapori to end slavery then let tens of thousands of freed men die die so the slavery can be established again. Her whole talk of removing slavery etc. is bullshit, she just allows it again, she just used it as an excuse to not sell her dragon. She is evil and an enemy of the human kind almost as dangerous as the White Walkers.

 

 

[Castellan]

I have had it in the back of my mind that the male Frey heirs will be whittled off by Black Walder, Westeros civil war, the battle of Ice and Fire, and perhaps by conquest by other Houses. Then the female heirs will be married off to men from dominant houses who become the actual rulers of the Frey castle and lands.

This was partly based on the Biblical story of the tribe of Benjamin who violated guest right and other tribes thought this was such an offence that the males were slaughtered and the women married to other tribes. (this is based on internet browsing and I have a very tenuous grasp on the story) However I just did another browse around the web and found that apparently the story went on that the idea of annihilating a whole house was so abhhorent that the decision to slaughter wasn't carried out as completely as planned. They decided to let some men live.

However the wiki says that at present after Edwyn, Edwyn's only child Walda would inherit. ie she comes before Black Walder so her life may be in imminent danger! So the female would be getting whittled down as well as the males. Then again she may be Black Walder's child as he is said to have slept with Edwyn's wife. Perhaps he could become defacto ruler by being the person who acts like her hand or guardian.

I think GRRM must have had fun creating this house. I wonder what a family tree of actual weasels would look like. I have started to picture Black Walder as a black weasel, hopping around leaving his genetic imprint on a whole weasel colony. (If they live in colonies.)

Edited January 13, 2023 by Castellan

[Angel Eyes]

30 minutes ago, Castellan said:

I think GRRM must have had fun creating this house. I wonder what a family tree of actual weasels would look like. I have started to picture Black Walder as a black weasel, hopping around leaving his genetic imprint on a whole weasel colony. (If they live in colonies.)

Plus Frey in Norse mythology was the God of fertility.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Whatever happens, I hope to see more of Black Walder. Everyone in the story describes him as an absolute gigachad.

[Craving Peaches]

28 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Whatever happens, I hope to see more of Black Walder. Everyone in the story describes him as an absolute gigachad.

I'd like him to become Lord of the Crossing at least briefly. Black Walder is not weighed down by pesky morals.

[Groo]

On 5/3/2022 at 1:47 PM, Evolett said:

I suspect the song of the Rat Cook begun by Wyman Manderly with the Frey pies will continue to its bitter end. Walder Frey will become the Rat Cook who is cursed to eat his many children.

That's a very interesting take. The gods were not upset that the Rat Cook took his revenge. They punished him for violating guest rights. The Freys are always described as weaselly looking (i.e. rodent looking) too!

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

16 minutes ago, Groo said:

That's a very interesting take. 

Yeah, old man Walder Frey outliving all of his children is an idea I never even considered.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

It is a little sad but Martin has been setting up the Freys for a huge suffering.  Some of the men deserve the punishment for breaking guest rights and their direct role in the red wedding.  Most of the Freys are innocent.  The Freys deserve to keep the Twins and the bridge.  They deserve to keep their assets.  Punish the wedding planners but leave the others unharmed.  

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

 

On 2/26/2022 at 10:45 AM, Apoplexy said:

I'm going to leave aside the question if violence is ever justified and if it is, how much is too much. But Walder frey, the orchestrator of the RW is still alive. I expect him to die pretty soon. And I don't see the all of the freys killed, but they will probably be stripped off their lands and titles.

The children of the house do not need to suffer.  Big Walder, little Cersei, Elmar, and Olvar will build the strong foundation of the Frey future.  I don't want Lord Walder to die.  I think Daenerys on the throne is the best hope of a just judgment for the House of Frey.  The Twins, bridge, and lands need to remain with the Freys because they know how to operate the business.  I am biased but those are my wishes for the Freys.  It is the Starks who more deserved to lose their titles because of their penchant for rebellions. 

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

It is the Starks who more deserved to lose their titles because of their penchant for rebellions. 

The Starks have rebelled twice in total, both times after a great injustice was done to them by the ruling monarch. By comparison Walder saw fit to break guest right over a more minor slight despite Robb's apology and attempt to reconcile. Neither Aerys or Joffrey even bothered to offer the Starks this.

[TheLastWolf]

13 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

 

The children of the house do not need to suffer.  Big Walder, little Cersei, Elmar, and Olvar will build the strong foundation of the Frey future.  I don't want Lord Walder to die.  I think Daenerys on the throne is the best hope of a just judgment for the House of Frey.  The Twins, bridge, and lands need to remain with the Freys because they know how to operate the business.  I am biased but those are my wishes for the Freys.  It is the Starks who more deserved to lose their titles because of their penchant for rebellions. 

*bump*