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Europe and the world… sins of the past… what could have we done to avoid our current situation?


Ser Scot A Ellison
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The abandonment of Poland… the abandonment of Eastern Europe… the creation of the “modern” Near East… the rape of Africa and Asia by Colonial powers.

What could we have realistically done differently?

This is to pull the historic debate out of the Ukraine thread:

discuss…

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison
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2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

 

What could we have realistically done differently?

 

Do what the Vikings did? i.e. Discover God, the Bible and the teachings of Christ, and take that shit to heart.

Edited by Spockydog
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3 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Do what the Vikings did? i.e. Discover God, the Bible and the teachings of Christ, and take that shit to heart.

19th early 20th Century Europeans/Americans seemed to really believe either they were entitled to rule or in the horseshit “white man’s burden”.  

We’re reaping what they sowed.  We’re reaping the actions of those who still believe that shit.

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6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

19th early 20th Century Europeans/Americans seemed to really believe either they were entitled to rule or in the horseshit “white man’s burden”.  

We’re reaping what they sowed.  We’re reaping the actions of those who still believe that shit.

The moving hand hath writ…

It’s pointless to speculate what past generations might have done differently.

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I don’t think this is going to be a popular view. People in the present have always been trying to solve the problems of the past and the present, for the very simple reason that they can’t see the future. Nor the collaterals and ramifications of certain present solutions for the future. It is hubris to think that humanity is smart or in control enough to be capable of taking responsibility and accountability for the unknown. The world is and has been for a very long time too small to not have a domino effect and too large to see past the first three domino blocks that are going to be knocked over. Guilt, shame and (self-)punishment about the past does not serve the future. Humility, perseverance, learning and hope does. Feel free to disagree. 

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A good place to start would be actually educating our children about what horrible cunts we've been for the past few centuries. But what do we do? Make repeated feeble and cowardly attempts to brush it all under the carpet while threatening to throw teachers in jail.

 

Edited by Spockydog
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3 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

A good place to start would be actually educating our children about what horrible cunts we've been for the past few centuries. But what do we do? Make repeated feeble and cowardly attempts to brush it all under the carpet while threatening to throw teachers in jail.

 

Yes.  A thousand time yes.

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What nonsense is this? Everyone has been horrific to everyone, forever. Europeans just happened to be on top when the Industrial Revolution happened.

If China, India or Africa got there first, the same or worse would have happened, just in the opposite direction.

Who are these hippies who think everyone would have been loving brothers if not for the evil Europeans?

Have you read what Shaka did to other black tribes in Southern Africa to build his Zulu kingdom? He “genocided”whole areas.

Are you aware of what the Mayans, Incas and Aztecs did to neighbouring tribes?

How about the history of China or the Middle East?

Give me a break.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn
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Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

What nonsense is this? Everyone has been horrific to everyone, forever. Europeans just happened to be on top when the Industrial Revolution happened.

If China, India or Africa got there first, the same or worse would have happened, just in the opposite direction.

Who are these hippies who think everyone would have been loving brothers of not for the evil Europeans?

Have you read what Shaka did to other black tribes in Southern Africa to build his Zulu kingdom? He genocides whole areas.

Are you aware of what the Mayans, Incas and Aztecs did to neighbouring tribes?

How about the history of China or the Middle East?

Give me a break.

We can’t be better?  What disturbs me are the shitheels who want to claim we should embrace this rather than resist this.

That we have been evil in the past in no way justifies or makes rational continued evil in the future.

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2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

We can’t be better?  What disturbs me are the shitheels who want to claim we should embrace this rather than resist this.

That we have been evil in the past in no way justifies or makes rational continued evil in the future.

Typed then deleted my long response.

Whatever dude. 

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21 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

A good place to start would be actually educating our children about what horrible cunts we've been for the past few centuries. But what do we do? Make repeated feeble and cowardly attempts to brush it all under the carpet while threatening to throw teachers in jail.

 

 From a British perspective my entire lifetime has been one long series of bashes over the head about what an awful terrible thing the British Empire was, both and school, tv, film, radio.. everywhere. Our society has long moved away from the idea of glorification of Empire, it's just so odd that people think its still happening. I tend to find that is an issue with many lefties, they don't really ever pay attention to any of the progress of the past 50-60 years, they act like we are still living in the victorian era.

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15 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

What nonsense is this? Everyone has been horrific to everyone, forever. Europeans just happened to be on top when the Industrial Revolution happened.

If China, India or Africa got there first, the same or worse would have happened, just in the opposite direction.

Who are these hippies who think everyone would have been loving brothers if not for the evil Europeans?

Have you read what Shaka did to other black tribes in Southern Africa to build his Zulu kingdom? He “genocided”whole areas.

Are you aware of what the Mayans, Incas and Aztecs did to neighbouring tribes?

How about the history of China or the Middle East?

Give me a break.

I also agree with this, it is very difficult to find examples of societies that live up to our modern day standards, it might be impossible.

It's also very easy to judge others for their savagery when we have almost all of our desires met and starvation and mass death are not a thing where we are. I'd say peoples values would change very quickly when you make life a lot more difficult and survival becomes a genuine factor. 

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8 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I also agree with this, it is very difficult to find examples of societies that live up to our modern day standards, it might be impossible.

It's also very easy to judge others for their savagery when we have almost all of our desires met and starvation and mass death are not a thing where we are. I'd say peoples values would change very quickly when you make life a lot more difficult and survival becomes a genuine factor. 

Then I repeat my question:

Quote

We can’t be better?  What disturbs me are the shitheels who want to claim we should embrace this rather than resist this.

That we have been evil in the past in no way justifies or makes rational continued evil in the future.

 

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I mean, i probably missed the rest of this conversation, but we've mostly managed to resist that for quite some time. 

If someone like Putin is doing it, its coming from a position of weakness , both personally (his control of statehood) and nationally (a poorly run country dependent on natural resources for economic growth). 

 

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Giving a full plate of civil rights, education, upward mobility and fertility control to all women and girls of the world.   Also, civil rights and social protections for GLBTQ+ folks.   OK, might be poorly stated, but I hope the concept comes across.

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29 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

If China, India or Africa got there first, the same or worse would have happened, just in the opposite direction. 

China definitely did. India possibly as well.

Not that other civilizations were that benevolent, but Europe started a whole different level of atrocities and that brought our species to where it is now.

There is something deeply rotten at the heart of Western civilization, and now we're destroying our environment because of it. 

 

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2 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Giving a full plate of civil rights, education, upward mobility and fertility control to all women and girls of the world.   Also, civil rights and social protections for GLBTQ+ folks.   OK, might be poorly stated, but I hope the concept comes across.

Aren't those things that Western society has done (or is at least aiming to do)

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