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Ukraine: Holding


Ser Scot A Ellison
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2 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Austria is doing the same and has refused refugees from Ukraine that are citizens of a 3rd country entry. :(

4 hours ago, DMC said:

How are satellites supposed to account for submarines?

Planes or vehicles are the most likely means of dilivery for tactical nuclear warheads and the nature of the warheads while only be discovered when they detonate.

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2 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Planes or vehicles are the most likely means of dilivery for tactical nuclear warheads and the nature of the warheads while only be discovered when they detonate.

Er..if they're only "discovered when they detonate" what's the point of satellites watching them detonate in the first place?

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2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Er..if they're only "discovered when they detonate" what's the point of satellites watching them detonate in the first place?

There is a difference between tactical and strategic nukes. Tactical nukes are used on the battlefield and will most likely be deployed by means with a short range(a few hundred km at most).

Edited by Luzifer's right hand
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Just now, Luzifer's right hand said:

There is a difference between tactical and strategic nukes. Tactical nukes are used on the battlefield and will most likely be deployed by means with a short range.

I'm aware.  None of this applies to my point - that Russia is fully equipped irt the nuclear triad and, subsequently, satellites aren't going to solve the problem.

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13 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Give me a minute, just gonna go back through your post history for the context I need to confirm that this isn’t just flat out racist. 

I'm a lawyer, a graduate of a Canadian law school. If my law school went to China to ask a Chinese citizen to run the fund raising campaign, yes, I'd have serious issues with that. Why would a Canadian law school ask a Chinese National - which I'm interpreting to mean a Chinese citizen - to raise funds for it? There has already been serious controversy in this country over the fact that the Chinese government has funded 'education' programs in Canadian schools, through its Confucius Institute. Eight colleges and universities and three schools boards run programs funded by the Chinese government. Many Canadians find the idea of the Chinese government funding education programs in Canada unpalatable. In fact, the Chinese have 500 programs they fund around the world through the Confucius Institute. They even flew 10 members of the Edmonton school board to China to talk about their program, and the school board members all said, hell no, a free trip to China didn't influence them at all, no siree. 

Why would a law school appoint a Chinese national as a fund raiser? To get money for the law school from Chinese billionaires? Why would a US law school appoint a Russian graduate who works in Moscow to chair the fund raising committee? Is it because they figured they'd raise funds from Russian oligarchs?

Think about that. Do you want your law schools to be funded by the Russians or the Chinese? Or do you think if US law schools (or Canadian or UK or whatever country) get donations from some scum-bag American billionaires (and there are quite a few people on this board who equate 'billionaire' automatically with 'scum-bag') there's no difference between those donations and Russian or Chinese scum-bag billionaire donations? In for a penny, in for a pound?

Or are you just so fast to condemn me because you interpreted what I said as meaning I would object to any person of Chinese ethnicity chairing a fund raising committee? If that's what you mean, it says a helluva a lot more about you than it does about me.

 

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6 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Are you in Ukraine?

Oh no, just in the middle of Europe. Sorry if I gave such a wrong impression. Though at this point one has to go back to old Cold War planning, in case one is scum enough to drop the bomb. For classical bombings, shelters and bunkers would make perfect sense; for global nuclear warfare, I'm not sure I'd choose that.

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1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

Or are you just so fast to condemn me because you interpreted what I said as meaning I would object to any person of Chinese ethnicity chairing a fund raising committee? If that's what you mean, it says a helluva a lot more about you than it does about me.

I interpreted it that way cos that’s what you wrote. Once again, it’s not on me to find the most charitable explanation for your posts. If what you mean is ‘if there were good cause to suspect the whole thing was corrupt I would have an issue’ then write that, instead of just an out of context “I’d have a problem with a Chinese national”. Anyway, this has nothing to do with Ukraine so feel free to move to the cancel culture thread, but I don’t see anything fruitful on the horizon.

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I know a couple of posters have shared links about the despicable treatment some non-white 3rd country nationals are receiving in Ukraine and neighbouring countries as they try to flee, but for some reason (?) it's hardly been commented on here yet. Of course the discussion is fluid and fast, so perhaps that is why. But this (hopefully fringe) treatment by some border officials coupled with the sort of outright racist narrative I've seen on MSM channels by various reporters is frankly fucking disgusting. It ranges from as 'subtle' as 'Ukraine is a civilised country, unlike countries like Iraq/Afghanistan/ME' to as vile as 'seeing people with blonde hair and blue eyes suffer is too much'. And the latter was said by a Ukrainian official on the BBC. 

I think @Spockydog said this earlier and I couldn't agree more: for too many people from 'civilised' countries (it's so fucking civilised to invade and bomb and kill other countries at will, and collude with corrupt regimes by selling them arms so they can kill citizens) the ongoing, decades old mass murder of non-white people in foreign lands (Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, Palestine, Kashmir, Myanmar) seems utterly uninteresting or not worthy of a second's thought. Almost as if it were par for the course and the natural order, so what's the problem, right? 

 

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9 minutes ago, Crixus said:

I think @Spockydog said this earlier and I couldn't agree more: for too many people from 'civilised' countries (it's so fucking civilised to invade and bomb and kill other countries at will, and collude with corrupt regimes by selling them arms so they can kill citizens) the ongoing, decades old mass murder of non-white people in foreign lands (Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, Palestine, Kashmir, Myanmar) seems utterly uninteresting or not worthy of a second's thought. Almost as if it were par for the course and the natural order, so what's the problem, right? 

Yeah, this is a very sad (and disgusting) reality. I don't know if it's a product of geography, tribalism, or just straight up racism. However, I have been thinking about Bush's invasion of Iraq a lot in recent days and have found myself extremely bothered by the discrepancies in coverage and over all reaction.

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10 minutes ago, Relic said:

Yeah, this is a very sad (and disgusting) reality. I don't know if it's a product of geography, tribalism, or just straight up racism. However, I have been thinking about Bush's invasion of Iraq a lot in recent days and have found myself extremely bothered by the discrepancies in coverage and over all reaction.

Yep. 'Freedom via mass bombing' seems to be something loads of people in the West can get behind.

Just realised the twitter link I shared above was from Iran Press TV - guess that means I should get blocked/kicked off the board because Iran is EVIL!?! Never mind I have nothing to do with Iran (except possible centuries-old ancestral links) :P  

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57 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I interpreted it that way cos that’s what you wrote. Once again, it’s not on me to find the most charitable explanation for your posts. If what you mean is ‘if there were good cause to suspect the whole thing was corrupt I would have an issue’ then write that, instead of just an out of context “I’d have a problem with a Chinese national”. Anyway, this has nothing to do with Ukraine so feel free to move to the cancel culture thread, but I don’t see anything fruitful on the horizon.

They're just trolling at this point it's fairly clear. 

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50 minutes ago, Relic said:

Yeah, this is a very sad (and disgusting) reality. I don't know if it's a product of geography, tribalism, or just straight up racism. However, I have been thinking about Bush's invasion of Iraq a lot in recent days and have found myself extremely bothered by the discrepancies in coverage and over all reaction.

Well how many people from this board who are not from the USA and suffered from a nationalism overdose for a few years after 09/11 were really for the invasion in Iraq?

Even the media here was against that war. There was some understanding for the war against Taliban ruled Afghanistan but next to nobody supported the Iraq war over here. I know this board is US centric but we eurocommies exist. There was a lack of sanctions obviously but it is not like that would have hurt the US enough to stop its constant wars as it is a warlike nation with a warrior worshipping culture which needs constant conflict for a lot of its economy and Europe depends on the US for its defense against Russia (which is more relevant than ever).

Edited by Luzifer's right hand
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re: treatment of foreign nationals, there is a lot of confusion.

1) people don't know how borders work. You need to first be processed by Ukrainian guards and only then by Polish guards. While Poland was letting everyone in, Ukraine wasn't letting everyone out. I've seen conflicting info from them wanting to process Ukrainians first, to not letting out men of any nationality (some white Luxembourgers had trouble getting out because they were men under 60), to there being specific border crossings devoted to processing foreign nationals because they would be able to get consular help after crossing, as opposed to just crossing randomly and getting no help.

2) obviously, people are racist. While there are thousands of people in Poland willing to help Ukrainians, they're not as willing to help people who aren't white. This is partly due to years of anti-immigrant propaganda, exacerbated by months of the Belarusian border crisis. People arrive at the border willing to transport "mothers with children" anywhere in Poland, but when they see the person needing help is Black/brown, they turn back. I do want to stress there has been very immediate response from charity organisations and non-racist volunteers who set up to specifically help POCs. At the same time, the Polish far-right is engaging in their own propaganda, sending neo-nazi  groups to Przemyśl and the border to "protect" the local population. Yesterday, some non-white members of a German charity helping refugees got attacked by a group of white men.

3) Embassies of the foreign nationals are reacting to problems but with hundreds of thousands crossing the borders each day there is obvious chaos.

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3 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Well how many people from this board who are not from the USA and suffered from a nationalism overdose for a few years after 09/11 were really for the invasion in Iraq?

Even the media here was against that war. There was some understanding for the war against Taliban ruled Afghanistan but next to nobody supported the Iraq war over here. I know this board is US centric but we eurocommies exist. There was a lack of sanctions obviously but it is not like that would have hurt the US enough to stop its constant wars as it is a warlike nation with a warrior worshipping culture which needs constant conflict for a lot of its economy.

It's not about being "pro" or "anti" war. It was more about how we dealt with the civilian death and displacement Bush and his cronies caused. "Collateral damage" is what they called it, while they destroyed the lives of millions. How many refugees did we take in after that, and how quickly were these war crimes glossed over? 

I don't really want to get into it here, but there is a definite difference in how the West treats white vs not white refugees. 

Edited by Relic
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4 minutes ago, Relic said:

It's not about being "pro" or "anti" war. It was more about how we dealt with the civilian death and displacement Bush and his cronies caused. "Collateral damage" is what they called it, while they destroyed the lives of millions. How many refugees did we take in after that, and how quickly were these car crimes glossed over? 

I don't really want to get into it here, but there is a definite difference in how the West treats white vs not white refugees. 

People also like to forget that Obama kept those wars going and that the US celebrated when an enemy was excexuted extrajudicially and his corpse dumped into the ocean(together with innocents who lived with him).

That refugee thing is sadly true.

 

Edited by Luzifer's right hand
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2 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

People also like to forget that Obama kept those wars going and that the US celebrated when an enemy was excexuted extrajudicially and his corpse dumped into the ocean(together with innocents who lived with him).

and they also forget that Clinton was killing 40 Iraqis a day with missile strikes. The USA doesnt get to claim any sort of moral superiority.

Perhaps this should be discussed in a different thread?

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4 minutes ago, Relic said:

and they also forget that Clinton was killing 40 Iraqis a day with missile strikes. The USA doesnt get to claim any sort of moral superiority.

Perhaps this should be discussed in a different thread?

Yeah too off topic I guess.

Lets just say for me as an Austrian the  modern USA is a lesser evil not a good.

But sadly we live in a world where lesser evils are often more important than the forces of good.

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1 hour ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Yeah too off topic I guess.

Lets just say for me as an Austrian the  modern USA is a lesser evil not a good.

But sadly we live in a world where lesser evils are often more important than the forces of good.

That is absolutely fair.  And the US is absolutely responsible for too much Evil.

What I find frustrating in other online spaces is when you see folks, who I can only imagine are Putin trolls, attempting to imply past US actions means any criticism of Putin’s actions now is invalid which is a textbook example of the Tu Quoque fallacy.

Others prior bad acts in a similar vein do not make it wrong to criticize current bad actions now.  

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison
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Ukrainian media, citing intelligence sources, says Russia is going to try to install Victor Yanukovych as a puppet Ukrainian president. Yanukovych (president of Ukraine in 2010-2014, who was sentenced in absentia for 13 years in prison for treason by Ukrainian court in 2019), was allegedly relocated to Minsk.

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