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Ukraine: Holding


Ser Scot A Ellison
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3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Seriously, imagine the exact same situation after Covid, and the co chair was Chinese. Would you be so cool with it then?

I think that there is a subtle distinction between past mistakes handling a pandemic and the continuing execution of a war of conquest of a democratic country.

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Would it be my decision? No, but I wouldn't be fundraising for a reunion for any school that I attended -- high school or college -- in the first place.

To throw around accusations here of xenophobia is asinine.

Anyhow, I've had enough playtime during my workday with the bad faith artists.

Edited by Week
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21 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

People are starting to see the World black and white. I warned a few pages back, the prevalent rhetoric is reminiscence to the one used during the pandemic, now the Russians are the antimaskers, the antivaxxers, the anti-whatever. It won't be long until they start finding some connections there too. The Russian aggression to Ukrania is unacceptable but it's also a very complex issue. Let's not devolve into a Neo-McCarthyism.

 

Well clearly being Russian is not really a choice. Being an anti-masker or anti-vaxxer is.

All the anti-vaxxers I know from work used to be far right Putin fanboys before COVID. His pro vaccine politics did not please them though.

Aggression? It is a freaking war.

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5 minutes ago, A wilding said:

I think that there is a subtle distinction between past mistakes handling a pandemic and the continuing execution of a war of conquest of a democratic country.

Grouping people in with the actions of their government / country is exactly what we are talking about. It is disgusting in either circumstance.

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11 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Again, the Russians already have air superiority (the ability to conduct operations without being pushed back by enemy airpower), and had it since the first few hours of the invasion.  What they do not have is air supremacy (the enemy airforce is no longer able to conduct meaningful operations). 

The Russians have satellite images of every airfield in Ukraine and any military planner with half a brain would prioritize bombing or capturing those airfields to be a high priority.  The fact that any airfields are still operable almost a week into this invasion is both puzzling and embarrassing.

None of the reasons I've seen given make a ton of sense either:

Russia is worried about friendly fire- Okay, that makes sense for airbases in the east I guess. But what about the entire western half the country where they don't seem to be any Russian forces?

Russia is worried about losing their advanced planes- Sure, but they've got more than enough of the old ones to overwhelm Ukrainian air defenses.

Russia doesn't have enough smart munitions- That might be true, I've no idea. But I'd think unguided bombs are good enough to hit runways.

Russia is worried about their inexperienced pilots embarrassing the country- Apparently the average Russian pilot gets far less annual flight time than NATO pilots. So there's certainly a chance some dumb mistakes might get made. But what better way to give them experience than an actual war?

Russian military branches aren't coordinating- That seems broadly true, and might be the reason behind stuff like lack of air cover for convoys. But how much coordination is needed for the air force to bomb runways?

Russian air force generals don't support the war- Maybe. I doubt it, but maybe. But even if that's the case, a military air force base is certainly a legitimate war target. Far moreso than the city centers that Russian artillery commanders seem to have no problem bombing.

Ukraine isn't using airbases- I saw footage of a plane using a highway as a runway. It could be that's common practice and Ukraine isn't using their official airbases at all anymore. But there has to be some place that they are storing planes when they get refueled, rearmed, and undergo any maintenance. And Russia has plenty of satellites, presumably they'd quickly find whatever impromptu bases are being used instead.

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5 minutes ago, Ran said:

You're being asinine.

She literally says "She is still a co-chair" and calls it a "bad look" as an explanation for her decision. It's obvious that had the co-chair resigned or been removed, she would not have resigned -- this was not some happenstance re-prioritization of her time, but motivated by the very facts she stated.

MZ did not advocate for them resigning, but clearly feels that the co-chair being a Russian national is a problem, that they should have resigned or been removed simply because they are a Russian national. 

Personally, I don't think this is a liberal position to take. It's one thing if the Russian co-chair worked for a Russian government agency. But if they're in private practice, or working for an NGO or something, I personally would not see it as an issue unless there's something I'm missing here.

I am not a liberal.  Never claimed to be.  Her clients include all of the big Russian state actors and oligarchs.  She is representing the University in fundraising.  They have chosen her as the leader for this purpose.  I do not wish to be associated with that any more.  That is, in fact my decision as is how I donate my money.

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4 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Well clearly being Russian is not really a choice. Being an anti-masker or anti-vaxxer is.

It doesn't matter. They are humans. Do not forget that.

I have friends turned over night into hackers and are trying to shut down businesses in Russia from what I read from their comments.

What next? Painting symbols outside Russian residents? People need to calm down. Same for politicians.

 

Edited by rotting sea cow
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1 minute ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I am not a liberal.

I was referring to classical liberalism

1 minute ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Her clients include all of the big Russian state actors and oligarchs.  

Ah, well, that change the picture substantially. Then she's part of the apparatus of the corrupt Russian regime that is prosecuting this war. Very different than if she was, I don't know, a family law attorney or whatever.

 

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Just now, rotting sea cow said:

It doesn't matter. They are humans. Do not forget that.

I have friends turned over night into hackers and are trying to shut down businesses in Russia from what I read from their comments.

They are humans that stand against everything I stand for though. Egoistic narcissism and complete disregard for the health of other people and the stability of health care systems. We belong to the same species and I would not actively harm them yes but that's about it nowadays.

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Fuck it. Imma gonna say it.

Americans (and to a lesser extent, Brits) are the last people on Earth who should feel justified in clambering up onto their high horses to punish Russian nationals just for being Russian.

I mean, while what is happening in Ukraine is truly, truly fucking awful, it really pales into insignificance when compared to what the British and Americans have been up to for the past twenty years in terms of, ya know, illegal wars, war crimes in those illegal wars, and horrifically killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, etc, etc, et fucking cetera.

Anyway, much of this outrage is for the birds. I don't see anyone calling for the ostracising of anyone, at all, over what is going on in Yemen. For years, we and the Saudis been murdering them. Yet I don't see anyone calling for Saudi Arabia to be sanctioned. I don't see anyone protesting British and American weapons being used to annihilate entire communities of brown people. Oh no.

Nobody is giving the chairmen of BAE or Lockheed Martin the cold cock.

$$$

The hypocrisy makes me sick.

 

 

Edited by Spockydog
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4 minutes ago, Fez said:

None of the reasons I've seen given make a ton of sense either:

None of those make sense to me either.  If I were to make a guess it would be that most of the airfields have been rendered inoperable, and that only a few UAF sorties go up when one gets repaired.  That sort of thing is embarrassing but hard to stop. 

It's almost impossible for us to know how many sorties the UAF are still running, it could be very few (fairly confident it's not zero).  If it's just a couple of sorties a day across the whole country then the UAF has been reduced to a propaganda tool ("See we still exist!") rather than a fighting force of any consequence.  Maybe that's what we're seeing here. 

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Just now, Ran said:

Ah, well, that change the picture substantially. Then she's part of the apparatus of the corrupt Russian regime that is prosecuting this war. Very different than if she was, I don't know, a family law attorney or whatever.

 

Shocking that @Mlle. Zabzie was thoughtful, justified, and clearly held no personal or xenophobic animus. Perhaps we could give each other some grace before assuming ill intent and riding the slippery slope to xenophobia and -- just wait two more posts -- genocide.

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Russia is attacking a democratic country with the aim of taking it over and some of you guys are worried about isolating individual Russians?

Well, fuck, if Putin was worried about that maybe he shouldn’t have invaded Ukraine?

You’re offended because someone doesn’t want a Russian to run her law school’s fund-raiser? Are you people nuts? What about the Ukrainians you know? What about the symbolism of having a Russian fund raising for a prestigious US law school? Rule of law not important anymore?

If worse came to worse (the takeover of Ukraine by Russia) I’d deport everyone with Russian citizenship  out of Canada unless they could prove they weren’t Putin supporters. I’d close down every trade office they have across the country right now and I’d tell the Russian embassy that they could only have a vastly reduced staff on hand and I’d restrict them to the capital city.

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6 minutes ago, Ran said:

I was referring to classical liberalism

Ah, well, that change the picture substantially. Then she's part of the apparatus of the corrupt Russian regime that is prosecuting this war. Very different than if she was, I don't know, a family law attorney or whatever.

 

1.  Got it.  Thanks.

2.  Yes, sorry I left that out.  US law firms with Moscow/St. Pete offices are having some really difficult soul searching moments  right now.  Some of them also have Kyiv offices.  It’s yucky.  But they are all there for the big Russian money…..I’m deep in my world and sort of assumed everyone knew that.

Edited by Mlle. Zabzie
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1 minute ago, Fragile Bird said:

Well, fuck, if Putin was worried about that maybe he shouldn’t have invaded Ukraine?

That's such a bullshit argument. As someone mentioned above if we were to blame citizens of a country for the actions of their leaders Americans should have been made unwelcome everywhere and anywhere. 

Zabzie made a comment that seemed she was discriminating against someone just because they were a Russian national. She has clarified since then. 

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1 minute ago, Fragile Bird said:

Putin was worried about that maybe he shouldn’t have invaded Ukraine?

Putin doesn't give an actual fuck, like most of the politicians driving the crazy rhetoric. 

But I do. I really do. Specially because I've met wonderful people from these countries, yes also from Ukraine and from Russia and I won't give them my back to either of them. It's a though time for all of them. Families and friendship are being put under strain now.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

None of those make sense to me either.  If I were to make a guess it would be that most of the airfields have been rendered inoperable, and that only a few UAF sorties go up when one gets repaired.  That sort of thing is embarrassing but hard to stop. 

It's almost impossible for us to know how many sorties the UAF are still running, it could be very few (fairly confident it's not zero).  If it's just a couple of sorties a day across the whole country then the UAF has been reduced to a propaganda tool ("See we still exist!") rather than a fighting force of any consequence.  Maybe that's what we're seeing here. 

Agreed. Although considering how powerful the propaganda around the UAF has been, I'd think Russia would want to put a stop to it regardless of the direct military significance. Also, even if the fighters themselves haven't done much, it sure seems like those Turkish drones they've got are punching well above their weight.

And if Russia is mostly restricting itself to nighttime air missions because there's too great a chance of Ukrainian interference during the day, that would suggest that whatever level of force projection the UAF does have is having a real impact.

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3 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Putin doesn't give an actual fuck, like most of the politicians driving the crazy rhetoric. 

But I do. I really do. Specially because I've met wonderful people from these countries, yes also from Ukraine and from Russia and I won't give them my back to either of them. It's a though time for all of them. Families and friendship are being put under strain now.

 

 

Anyone who supports Putin is dead to me.

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3 minutes ago, Fez said:

Agreed. Although considering how powerful the propaganda around the UAF has been, I'd think Russia would want to put a stop to it regardless of the direct military significance. Also, even if the fighters themselves haven't done much, it sure seems like those Turkish drones they've got are punching well above their weight.

And if Russia is mostly restricting itself to nighttime air missions because there's too great a chance of Ukrainian interference during the day, that would suggest that whatever level of force projection the UAF does have is having a real impact.

Do you need an airfield for those drones?  I don't know anything about them, but I thought the answer was no.  If not, then rendering them inoperable is much harder. 

I think the nighttime air missions is to avoid ground based anti-aircraft defenses, rather than threats from the air. 

Edited by Maithanet
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