Canceled: co-opt

[Varysblackfyre321]

22 hours ago, baxus said:

Obviously, I'm not saying that killing political opponents is ok or anything like that, but I don't see an opera singer ranking highly enough on the list to warrant that kind of retribution.

Maybe not kill, but if she has any close ties back home there can be harassment by local authorities Putin supporters on her loved ones.

Would you accept this as more realistic?

[DaveSumm]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Maybe not kill, but if she has any close ties back home there can be harassment by local authorities Putin supporters on her loved ones.

Would you accept this as more realistic?

Seems irrelevant how realistic it is, you just shouldn’t have to publicly ‘denounce’ anyone. Plus “he hasn’t done that before” is hardly anything to base your decisions around when it comes to Putin.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, DaveSumm said:

Seems irrelevant how realistic it is, you just shouldn’t have to publicly ‘denounce’ anyone.

I agree least when the only reason for such denouncement is something like ethnicity.

But I don’t think it’s a great idea to make such expectation always bad no matter the individual circumstances.

For example I do urge/expect the leadership of the Republican Party to denounce and try to cancel Majore Taylor Greene for gushing on how great Americans  white Nationalists are.

And to denounce and try to cancel Madison Cawthorne for attacking Ukraine’s government for spreading “wokeness” while they’re in the middle of being invaded by a fascist empire. 

 

[baxus]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Maybe not kill, but if she has any close ties back home there can be harassment by local authorities Putin supporters on her loved ones.

Would you accept this as more realistic?

I wouldn't consider it realistic for Putin to even register some opera singer saying something against him.

That doesn't mean that some of his underlings wouldn't try to suck up to him by doing something like that so yeah, that's more realistic.

[A wilding]

Going off on a complete tangent here, but hopefully this may be of interest.

A positive effect of this thread is that I have now, for the first time in many years, had a long chat with my Mum about her childhood WW2 experiences.

She says her memories are blurring, for example she can't remember how many seconds you counted before a V1's engine cut out and the explosion when it hit the ground, but they still seemed vivid enough to me. I had actually remembered quite a few details wrong. For example I thought that the little morrison shelter that she slept in was under the dining room table, when in fact they used its metal top as a table. And while I remember her saying that V2s were much more scary than V1s because you heard the explosion first and then the noise of it coming in after, it was actually someone else that told me that. Mum does not think she herself ever heard one "because they all fell on South London".

That last point is interesting because it relates to one of the counter intelligence coups that mass internment of German citizens in the UK helped enable. British intelligence managed to feed the Germans misinformation that convinced them that the V2s were overshooting Central London, and so they shortened the range. One of the horrific things that happen in wartime - someone made the cold blooded decision that South East London was more expendable than Central London. Of course that did not stop German propaganda that Central London had been completely flattened. Mum was not sure if she knew at the time where the V2s were landing or only found out after the war when she saw the devastation there.

I think I might suggest to Mum that she writes a memoir.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

A significant number of these instances are Conservative Cancel culture at work: 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisadellatto/2022/04/04/unprecedented-book-ban-attempts-in-2021-many-with-lgbtq-themes-library-group-reports/

Though I’ll be honest  my problem isn’t  the censorship or utilizing tools of the state to moderate messages dispensed to the public within some spheres of public education.

Its the bigotry generating the censorship and the messages they’re trying to propagate. 

[kiko]

On 3/11/2022 at 11:07 AM, baxus said:

I wouldn't consider it realistic for Putin to even register some opera singer saying something against him.

That doesn't mean that some of his underlings wouldn't try to suck up to him by doing something like that so yeah, that's more realistic.

You obviously don't know how important Anna Netrebko is. And it's safe to say that Putin is aware of her since he hosted her 50th birthday in the Kremlin last autumn. Where she also took the time to pose with East Ukrainian separatists in front of a Novaja Rossja flag. 

Anyhow - after contemplating for 5 weeks she is somewhat against the war now and remembered that she hardly knows Putin. Which, ironically, got her canceled in Russia now.

 

[The Anti-Targ]

On a less current humanitarian nightmare note. Today I became aware for the first time of James Webb's history of mistreatment of LGB people during his time at NASA, and that there were calls to not name / rename the recently launched space telescope after him. I don't know enough about his personal and professional history to comment, but I wonder, did he ever try to reform his character or did he remain an unrepentant homophobe to the end of his days?

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 4/4/2022 at 7:01 PM, The Anti-Targ said:

On a less current humanitarian nightmare note. Today I became aware for the first time of James Webb's history of mistreatment of LGB people during his time at NASA, and that there were calls to not name / rename the recently launched space telescope after him. I don't know enough about his personal and professional history to comment, but I wonder, did he ever try to reform his character or did he remain an unrepentant homophobe to the end of his days?

I’ve thought of this for weeks on end: and I have finally googled on it for  about a couple minutes and found no reformation.

I didn’t really expect to, butI honestly don’t think it’s necessary for nasa to rename things with his name attached to it regardless of if he got better.

It’s unreasonable to expect a particular individual  in the west nearly a century ago to share modern social sentiments. Webb wasn’t/isn’t celebrated mostly for his homophobia or his actions in defense of it like say confederate soldiers(us tax dollars shouldn’t go to celebrating its enemies in general).

Though if any administer of nasa tried to do what he did today he should be immediately canceled.

[The Anti-Targ]

Is the standard for not cancelling historically honoured people whether their past sins were the social norm of the time? If so, where is the red line for things like slavery. At one time it was normal and accepted to have slaves (if you were rich enough), at some point it became not normal and not accepted [in civilised society]. But at a point before that there were social movements and activism opposed to it. When is an historic person owning slaves a valid reason to blacken their name? And slavery isn't even the worst thing that was, if not normal and accepted, tolerated if you kept it behind closed doors, and you were rich and powerful enough, if you go far back enough in history.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

54 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Is the standard for not cancelling historically honoured people whether their past sins were the social norm of the time?

I think it can be a fair metric though I concede it can be abused to overly sanitize particular individuals. 
 

I do think if an individual actively and significant dampened the prospect of a positive social movement they can be more easily condemned.

57 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

If so, where is the red line for things like slavery. At one time it was normal and accepted to have slaves (if you were rich enough), at some point it became not normal and not accepted [in civilised society]. B

How about being supportive of sodomy laws or not for universal suffrage?

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

I don't know that I'd call the 1960's almost a century ago.  There are plenty of people alive right now who were there.  

There's also a whole lot of room between naming cool stuff after people and totally erasing them from history.  Things get renamed all the time, name the telescope after someone else.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Larry of the Lake said:

I don't know that I'd call the 1960's almost a century ago.  There are plenty of people alive right now who were there.  

It’s 62 years ago I think you can round up there to a century.

There’s not a lot of people who were in the 60s who were already in they’re fifties during it.

3 hours ago, Larry of the Lake said:

There's also a whole lot of room between naming cool stuff after people and totally erasing them from history.

I don’t think it erases them but I do think it could send a message of moral equivalency between certain figures who were worlds apart but weren’t perfectly enlightened progressive on a certain issue.

Also it can be useful to have certain figures for members of society to aspire to be like based on their perceived embodiment of certain ideals.

I honestly wish more progressives would more appropriate certain figures and symbols that may have problematic elements to them for their own ends.

Like with Hamilton.

Like I’m not a fan of Hamilton but I do think there’s a use in portraying American ideals as being one’s of social liberalism.

Though deep down I wish humanity could move past it’s need to glorify(even deify)  individuals. But I don’t think we’re there yet.

3 hours ago, Larry of the Lake said:

Things get renamed all the time, name the telescope after someone else.

Question if in the future society was able to completely replicate any food and not have rely on killing animals for substance would parks, streets, and schools named after MLK to be renamed to a figure more close to modern cultural mores? Someone who never regularly consumed the flesh of sentient creatures?

[DMC]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It’s 62 years ago I think you can round up there to a century.

I'm thinking most people in their sixties are not gonna like your rounding policy.

[Varysblackfyre321]

19 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm thinking most people in their sixties are not gonna like your rounding policy.

Ha. Fair enough actually 

[maarsen]

41 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm thinking most people in their sixties are not gonna like your rounding policy.

Being one of those I have to agree. 

[Zorral]

4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It’s 62 years ago I think you can round up there to a century.

1960 is 40 years before 2000. You can't round 40 years into 100 years.  40 years is two generations.

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

1960 is 40 years before 2000. You can't round 40 years into 100 years.  40 years is two generations.

I rounded 62 years lol.

Alright let’s compromise and just say it was over half a century ago.

[Varysblackfyre321]

Florida eliminates Disney’s special tax district in response to them(Disney)  disagreeing with a bill that censored discussion on LGBT people in schools. 
https://apnews.com/764fd04befeb51ca0a48c1c143e690ab
 

Conservatives(especially the ones most hamstrung about the cancel culture) in general are fully supportive of this cancellation(even though it violates their small government principle with regards to business) that can in the future lead to Disney removing any LGBT representation(that they’d do for the more woke) out of their art out of fear government retaliation and a shut down of pro-lgbt writers and artists in the industry.

I understand that not every person concerned with the various things people may associate with the cancel culture. But for many of the people loudly bemoaning the vague concept, it is just a way delegitimizaize any attempt curate a group or society’s to be more liberally minded on a topic.

 

[Winterfell is Burning]

What's stopping Disney from simply moving up shop to a state that offers them similar benefits?