Canceled: co-opt

[DMC]

Like Ran I don't really remember kindergarten, but I distinctly recall being taught about the holocaust, MLK, the civil war, etc. by about second grade - or age 7.  And I don't think there's any problem with that at all.  That's not technically 5 years old, no, but is this argument really about the difference between age 5 and age 7?  Cuz that seems pretty silly.

[mormont]

I think we should all do our best to avoid rudeness, or the appearance of rudeness: but also read others' posts as charitably as possible and not make assumptions about things that are notoriously difficult to interpret online, like the intent of the user.

Back on-topic:

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I'm guessing you weren't taught about the troubles or shown videos of bombs going off, or taught the history of the British Empire at 5 years old though. 

I certainly saw the effects of the troubles, including the aftermath of bombings, on TV at that age. I don't recall it very clearly, but it was very much part of the world I lived in. I would also have had a vague notion of what the British Empire was. I had second-generation kids of Indian and Pakistani descent in my classes. Again, it was part of the world I lived in. And what is the job of education if not to help me understand the world I live in? At whatever level is appropriate, of course. But that's generally a higher level than people think.

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

I taught preschoolers. You can break things down for them, or model:) I supervised in the playground every week. There was only one bike. I would intervene if they fought or shoved another kid off. Usually I would give them 5 minutes each and then stop them for the next turn. Kids are not more virtuous naturally. There was also spontaneous kindness shown. 

I have never taught that age group.  However, friends of mine have been doing it for years.  Not only do they discuss among ourselves their research (some of them are also publishing academics -- why yes indeed, for you all who don't know: pre, kinder and primary school teachers can certainly be academics!), techniques for teaching all sorts of ideas, concepts and behaviors.  Among the most lively discussions to which I've been audience is included their merry, non-judgmental, non-horrified, rather amused attitude about 3 years olds masturbating, and how one deals with it, talks with them about it.

Really speaking of children's golden age of angelic innocence is just ridiculous -- and almost always propagandized by people w/o kids and who aren't around them much or at all. 

Kids may not understand a whole lot or catch a lot of nuance, But even very little children are extremely diligent observers and little gets past them -- that's how kids learn and grow. They ask questions constantly about everything, and they want answers.  But they also learn very quickly what they aren't supposed to ask questions about.

I value these particular friends particularly for what I don't particularly possess, which is their utter delight and joy being around kids of these ages, which hasn't diminished over the years.  Until pandemic -- and then it isn't the kids, it's the way things have been handled in this country which is making teaching at any level a pretty damned horrible ordeal.

 

 

[Zorral]

BTW -- this very thing is addressed by Chris Barkley this afternoon on File 770; Sam Delany is in the mix too:

https://file770.com/barkley-so-glad-you-didnt-ask-a-column-of-unsolicited-opinions-65/

Quote

 

.... When I was growing up, children like myself were taught, no, more like indoctrinated, to think the United States was the BEST place to grow up, that our country was ALWAYS in the right and that our institutions were, for the most part, unassailable and impervious to criticism from anyone, especially foreigners.

I grew up in Ohio in the 1960’s and despite what I was being taught in a parochial Catholic grade school (at great expense, I might add, by my hard-working parents), certain things I was experiencing did not add up. News of the violence and casualties during the Vietnam War was inescapable. I remember watching the evening network news broadcasts and being horrified by the number of people (on all sides of the conflict) being wounded or killed on a daily basis.

As the years went on, it became harder to reconcile all of the violence, terrorism, public assassinations and the racism I was experiencing with the education I was receiving. The Pentagon Papers and the Watergate break-ins coincided with my high school years and the beginnings of my political awakening.

When I look back on those formative days of my life, I see myself as a small child, set out upon a sea of prejudice and whiteness, in a boat of hetero-normaltity, destination unknown. ....

 

 

[HoodedCrow]

Nice! I mirrored HeartofIce. It should be familiar to you.

[Zorral]

That linked to article in File 770, further describes an online interaction with someone just like that, in which the snowflake accuses the Black person of being a racist.  That guy also, when failing to have anything effective to counter what he didn't like, posted a laughing emoji -- it's the SOP of the supremacists -- that, and pretending incomprehension.  If there was actual incomprehension though, one can't help to wonder -- vaguely, for a nano second, maybe? -- how in heck they got through finger painting in pre-school.

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Except this whole discussion has been about the mental capacity of five year olds,

Five year olds can handle the fact gay people exist. And be brought to associate with being mean to them over being  as bad or wrong.

8 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

not the ‘wokeness’ or otherwise of what it is you’re trying to teach them.

Come on now you know what I’d like them to be taught; be forthcoming in your disgust towards the LGBT: don’t hide behind the word wokeness.

8 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Can we give them a tiny window to just be innocent and care free?

They can still be that after being taught bigotry bad and historically bigoted things as bad and the existence of people who may be different than is okay.

Like what harm could there be for a child to know their classmates’ two dads isn’t dysfunctional?

8 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Instead of “right, put down your finger painting Timmy, it’s time you learnt about the time Hitler tried to exterminate an entire people”.

Yes they’re was a bad named Hitler who wanted to hurt Jews over they’re race.

You’re country and perhaps your grandparents helped stop him(assuming Tommy’s growing up in an allied country).

Be proud.

[Spockydog]

I'll tell you something. Aged five, when I started going to school in the east end of Glasgow, it would have been helpful if a teacher, or someone else who wasn't a member of my family, explained to me why, exactly, the proddy dogs were supposedly eating frogs.

 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 hours ago, Heartofice said:

There is a big difference between teaching kids aged 5 general concepts such as fairness and trying to instruct them on historical events to which they cannot possibly contextualise or understand fully. 

Note he still never states what actual age he feels kids can learn about the existence of the lgbt and anything about the abuse they suffered.

They don’t say children  could be taught at 7, 9, or 11, or 13. 

Just very vague expressed fears of them getting confused on being on it as if it’ll cause irreversible harm that cannot be allowed.

When I was five I knew America used to apart of the England. We beat you and became a country(USA!) . I still went out and played.

[DMC]

29 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes they’re was a bad named Hitler who wanted to hurt Jews over they’re race.

You’re country and perhaps your grandparents helped stop him(assuming Tommy’s growing up in an allied country).

Be proud.

While I agree with your point, I hope five year olds are taught better grammar.

[Varysblackfyre321]

Just now, DMC said:

While I agree with your point, I hope five year olds are taught better grammar.

Heh fair enough 

[Week]

59 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Five year olds can handle the fact gay people exist. And be brought to associate with being mean to them over being  as bad or wrong.

Amazing that LGBTQ+ people only exist as 'others' -- they couldn't possibly be parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, friends of family, or any other individual with a direct interaction to a five year old.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 hours ago, DMC said:

Like Ran I don't really remember kindergarten, but I distinctly recall being taught about the holocaust, MLK, the civil war, etc. by about second grade - or age 7.  And I don't think there's any problem with that at all.  That's not technically 5 years old, no, but is this argument really about the difference between age 5 and age 7?  Cuz that seems pretty silly.

Same, and I always find it funny when people bring up teaching about the holocaust. Pretty sure here in the US >75% of 7 year old Jewish kids know more about the holocaust than the majority of adults. Next to no one is traumatized by it. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

12 hours ago, maarsen said:

I was born in 1956, 11 years after a war that changed both of my parent's lives in a huge way. At 5 I was well aware of who the Nazis were, as were just about every kid my age. Parent's talked, comic books carried war stories, older siblings may even had memories of the war. Never underestimate how much a 5 year old knows.

Goddamn it; I guess we have to ban five year olds from being able to see Indiana Jones.

They’ll just be so confused/s

12 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

I would think that teaching a kid to be a decent and tolerant human is a very complex issue. Children are learning how things work from the moment they are born, at 5 they have had a lot of things taught to them by their families and society. So to teach a kid to be "decent" you not only have to teach them but also to un-teach a lot of things to. I think its a very complex issue. And kids would benefit from learning the "possitve" and un learning  the problematic things as early as possible

I agree.

The problem is people can have a different idea on what being a decent person entails

@BigFatCoward I think from what I’ve seen from you you’d see trying to lock up gay people for any same sex activities, or denying them the ability to get married to members of the same sex or raise kids, as something decent people don’t/shouldn’t do.

But most of the people who’d do such things think their actions are good, necessary even. most would still say its important to treat everyone decently with absolute honesty. Because to them being decent calls for their sort of behavior. 
If you equate being gay to being an alcoholic or meth addict, in your eyes allowing a same sex couple to raise a kid is just grossly irresponsible. To ever show such a thing in a positive light is also grossly irresponsible.

It’s important that kids get the same idea for what it means to be a decent person.

13 hours ago, mormont said:

So yeah. Kids of 5 need to be educated about prejudice. Because they are being educated about prejudice. At home, on the playground, on the street.

And often by the people they most trust and love and see as a wellspring of knowledge.

 most five year olds would take any explanation on how the world works by the people who raise at face value.

Like how many of us here believed in Santa Claus with no question because people around us told us he was real?

 Or any mythical figure?

[DaveSumm]

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Come on now you know what I’d like them to be taught; be forthcoming in your disgust towards the LGBT: don’t hide behind the word wokeness.

So everyone’s fine with this yea? HoI gets a bit sarcastic, but this is OK? In response to a post that showed nothing of the sort? How the fuck you can read pages of VBF321 posting this shit and come out thinking HoI needs bringing up on his style is beyond me.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

So everyone’s fine with this yea?

Absolutely not.

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

HoI gets a bit sarcastic, but this is OK

I agree it’s a bit silly to dog on him for his tone. The ridiculously degenerate thing  he is arguing for is the problem—not how.

Seriously, I don’t even think mainstream republicans at this point would argue  it’s inappropriate for small  children to learn about the civil rights movement.

I mean they would after they reinstate sodomy laws probably(more reason to indoctrinate the youth to be pro-lgbt as soon as Possible imo.)

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

How the fuck you can read pages of VBF321 posting this shit and come out thinking HoI needs bringing up on his style is beyond me.

If a five year old is taught about something like don’t ask don’t t tell(in a way that presents it as bad), how would that impede their development or harm them in any meaningful way?

 

Please Don’t just fallback on a lazy “They’ll be confused!” 

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Same, and I always find it funny when people bring up teaching about the holocaust. Pretty sure here in the US >75% of 7 year old Jewish kids know more about the holocaust than the majority of adults. Next to no one is traumatized by it. 

Wow it’s almost  like many Jewish  families want their kids to take pride in their forefathers and foremothers and be ready to fight back against the type of bigotry that nearly destroyed their family.

That’s so weird. 

7 hours ago, Week said:

Amazing that LGBTQ+ people only exist as 'others' -- they couldn't possibly be parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, friends of family, or any other individual with a direct interaction to a five year old.

Oh yeah it should be noted again the don’t say gay bill makes it really hard for teachers to defend students who get bullied for being a member of the lgbt, or has Family that’s a member of the lgbt.

A teacher Saying homophobia bad to their class enough to get them called a pedophile.

[Zorral]

Their deliberate anti-vax>anti-mask propaganda and behavior, the Alito Leak and the Buffalo TOPS shooter’s screed about race replacement, the deSantis DON'T EVEN SAY THE WORD! finally? I guess? has gotten even the treacherous, smug, lazy media to comprehend that 30% of the USA wants to kill the 70% rest of us – when not enslaving and torturing just for funsies. We call THAT canceling. The people howling here about confused, innocent children are their water carriers.

By the way, the summer I was five years old I wasn't fingerpainting in kindergarten, I spent the summer mornings literally carrying water from the well to wherever I was to told to.  Except not 'carrying', because I was five, and the pail too big even if half-full. The ignorance of the lives of so many children -- willful ignorance, as with the willful ignorance of women and pregnancy, childbirth and childcare -- by that 70% is beyond disgusting.
 

[Zorral]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/05/16/how-teachers-address-racist-killings/

Quote

 

Teachers are once again grappling with how to address with their students racially motivated killings in America, this time at a Buffalo supermarket where 13 people were shot — 11 of them Black — and 10 died. A White teenager, who police said wrote an online document citing the “great replacement” theory, has been charged with and pleaded not guilty to first-degree murder in the shooting. The racist theory says that non-White immigrants are being brought into the United States to eliminate Whites. Rep. Elise Stefanik (R-N.Y.), the No. 3 House Republican, and other GOP lawmakers have at one time or another echoed the racist idea.

This teaching exercise comes at a time in our history when Republican-led states have restricted what teachers can say about race and racism. Many educators are fearful about losing their jobs for speaking about these issues in their classrooms — at the very time that such discussions are as important as ever. ....

 

 

[Zorral]

For those pretending to be confused how abortion, Don't Say Gay and censoring what school kids can hear and read and be taught, Race Replacement, hatred of women, massive political corruption in everything from Cruz's campaign fianance court decision (which the very judges for whom he voted have now allowed as a legal massive political bribery corridor), white supremacy, anti-democracy, white male xtian nationalism and wide-spread violence are interconnected, please read this. This is also driving -- at least in part, particularly the white supremacy part -- the cruelty and stupidity in other governments as well, such as the move to BREXIT and Russia's invasion of other nations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/17/opinion/buffalo-shooting-replacement-theory.html

Quote

 

.... The great replacement is the latest incarnation of an old idea: The belief that elites are attempting to destroy the white race by overwhelming it with nonwhite groups and thinning them out with interbreeding until white people no longer exist. This idea is not, at its core, about any single threat, be it immigrants or people of color, but rather about the white race that it purports to protect. It's important to be cautious and not too credulous when reading the writings of assailants in attacks motived by race, but we should note an important pattern: their obsession with protecting white birthrates.

For decades, white power activists have worried about their status as a majority. They see a looming demographic crisis, and talk about when their community, town or the United States will no longer be majority white. Even when demographic change slows, this fear has not abated.

This belief transforms social issues into direct threats: Immigration is a problem because immigrants will outbreed the white population. Abortion is a problem because white babies will be aborted. L.G.B.T.Q. rights and feminism will take women from the home and decrease the white birthrate. Integration, intermarriage and even the presence of Black people distant from a white community — an issue apparently of keen interest in the Buffalo attack — are seen as a threat to the white birthrate through the threat of miscegenation.

In the United States, it is clear that this is never only about immigration; when gunmen write about “replacers,” they might just as easily mean any person of color, whether they have American roots or not. Replacement theory is about the violent defense of whiteness. ....

 

Trust me folks: if you think in this world they wish to make, getting ahead by pulling one's own bootstraps is possible, I laugh in your faces.