Canceled: co-opt

[DanteGabriel]

On 5/16/2022 at 7:25 AM, Heartofice said:

Have you ever even met a 5 year old child?

Thats basically last response to this conversation. I don't see the point of continuing when there is no shared agreement on what a child is! 

A couple of years ago, when my son was five, he spotted a Black Lives Matter sign and asked me what it meant. So I did give him a simplified summary of the fact that people with dark skin have been treated poorly by this country and that police officers have hurt or killed innocent black people because of this.

When I was five years old I didn't know all the complexities of American foreign policy but I did know that President Reagan was friends with the bad ruler who had my dad's friend killed.

When I was six, my first grade teacher gave us all newly-issued commemorative MLK Jr postage stamps and taught us about his life and legacy. It wasn't that hard to absorb. Partially because I'd already been exposed to those ideas through the TV show Diff'rent Strokes.

You shouldn't project your sneering contempt for other people's intelligence onto others.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

22 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

I did know that President Reagan

I think most five year olds could tell you what the title of the main leader of the nation is without knowing what exactly they can do or the complex history that lead them there in the first place.

25 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Partially because I'd already been exposed to those ideas through the TV show Diff'rent Strokes.

Such introductions help.

I’m fine with the idea of first normalizing tolerance before going into how awful a particular type of bigotry is. There needs to be a sense of a connection to the groups discriminated against.  So when bigotry is shown there’s a appropriate level of horror and disgust at it. 
 

 

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I’m fine with the idea of first normalizing tolerance before going into how awful a particular type of bigotry is.

For the entire history of the USA Black families have not been able to enjoy that privilege.  From the time they are very young Black parents have to school their kids, particularly their male children, in how the cops and White people will go violent on them for all kinds of reasons or none at all, and how careful they must be.  The little kids in the Tops supermarket in Buffalo didn't have the privilege of waiting until they were older to find out, did they?  They have to know now.  Just as all school kids have to know, which is why again, what the hell about this golden age of childhood when all responsible schools have lock down drills because of the chances a shooter will show up at the school.

The very idea that kids don't need to know this stuff as stated here reveals a level of protected privilege that very, very few kids live in.

 

[DaveSumm]

Is anyone happy that we need to teach kids school shooter procedures? Isn’t that an unfortunate byproduct of a completely different problem?

[sologdin]

my second wife had to learn insurgency tactics and whatnot for fear that the NSDAP would invade her country again. the buffalo shooter's manifesto suggests that these two scenarios have a common root in rightwing politics. 

[Zorral]

30 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Is anyone happy that we need to teach kids school shooter procedures? Isn’t that an unfortunate byproduct of a completely different problem?

No. You clearly did not study the study shown above that the vast majority of these events happen because they are committed by right wing white supremacist terrorists. The same people who are legislating don't say and voter repression, race replacement, etc.

[Week]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

Is anyone happy that we need to teach kids school shooter procedures? Isn’t that an unfortunate byproduct of a completely different problem?

I imagine that the gunophile/2nd amendment lovers are fine with it. Fighting any and all restrictions on guns come with such consequences.

[Zorral]

It's entirely intersectionality: white male supremacy and entitlement, guns to keep those Others down, the weaponizing of hatred, religion, racism, misogyny, health, not meaning only covid, but mental health, as tactical squads.  These have been braided together in the violence that is part and parcel of both US  foundational mythology and keeping the power, and most of the wealth, in the hands of a very few through the exploitation of everyone else.

No one who has any reasoning capacity can separate the need for teaching children lockdown-evasion behaviors from shooters, to this history, which don't say is attempting not only to erase but criminalize even mentioning.  The history of what makes this necessary is widely known and documented and studied.

 

[DMC]

21 minutes ago, Week said:

I imagine that the gunophile/2nd amendment lovers are fine with it. Fighting any and all restrictions on guns come with such consequences.

Pretty sure the only tangible solution they've proposed to school shootings is to put more guns in schools.

[Week]

8 minutes ago, DMC said:

Pretty sure the only tangible solution they've proposed to school shootings is to put more guns in schools.

Of course, more security with guns which require teachers to have guns which will eventually require students to have guns. The only logical progression in their mind.

[DaveSumm]

55 minutes ago, Zorral said:

It's entirely intersectionality: white male supremacy and entitlement, guns to keep those Others down, the weaponizing of hatred, religion, racism, misogyny, health, not meaning only covid, but mental health, as tactical squads.  These have been braided together in the violence that is part and parcel of both US  foundational mythology and keeping the power, and most of the wealth, in the hands of a very few through the exploitation of everyone else.

No one who has any reasoning capacity can separate the need for teaching children lockdown-evasion behaviors from shooters, to this history, which don't say is attempting not only to erase but criminalize even mentioning.  The history of what makes this necessary is widely known and documented and studied.

So, genuine question to try to understand what you’re saying, should we (or the US at least) be teaching 5 year olds the procedure for a shooter in their school, and the reasons why such a shooter might be trying to shoot them?

[JGP]

7 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

So, genuine question to try to understand what you’re saying, should we (or the US at least) be teaching 5 year olds the procedure for a shooter in their school, and the reasons why such a shooter might be trying to shoot them?

It's horrible that such things need to be taught, but yes, to whatever level they're capable of understanding it [the latter can vary dramatically at that age] If a child can be shot at school, which can happen anywhere in the world yet happens nowhere near like that of the US, then preparation is preeminent at the grade school level.

Beyond that, the civilian population of the US has twice the second highest rate of gun ownership per hundred iirc [caveat: per some 2017 data I read] The Feds need to focus on gun control. Good luck with that when dead kids won't move you.

The disaffected segment of society that is vulnerable to violently enacting radical ideation, that's a whole other can of mindworms.   

      

[Zorral]

37 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

So, genuine question to try to understand what you’re saying, should we (or the US at least) be teaching 5 year olds the procedure for a shooter in their school, and the reasons why such a shooter might be trying to shoot them?

Genuine question: what are you going to tell a kid who has experienced or likely will experience someone invading their so-called 'safe spaces' to kill them, "Daddy why do people want to kill me?"

Is your answer on the order of, "God's will a bad (white) man got armed with army weaponry because he felt like shooting people/Black people/girls/women, disabled/ LGBTQ+?"  Or?

The fact is that in the USA YAY 30% of the population is determined to kill the 70% by all means possible.

Second genuine question -- why are you hung up on children learning why instead of the fact this is going on and who is doing it?

 

[DaveSumm]

6 minutes ago, Zorral said:

The fact is that in the USA YAY 30% of the population is determined to kill the 70% by all means possible.

I mean … you’re all over the map on this, I have no clue what this discussion is about anymore (this is the cancel culture thread right?) but just on the back of this quote, I’ll leave it there. 

[Zorral]

Lazy.  When there is no rational response you all always default to "I don't understand."  Feh.  Or laughing. No matter how horrendous the subject.   

How in the world do you expect to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps when you're too lazy to devise a simple response to a simple question?

[DanteGabriel]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

So, genuine question to try to understand what you’re saying, should we (or the US at least) be teaching 5 year olds the procedure for a shooter in their school, and the reasons why such a shooter might be trying to shoot them?

Why do you find this so unusual for American schools? As a six year old I was taught to duck and cover under my desk because we might get into a nuclear war with the Soviet Union. Preparing a kid to have their school shot up is likely to save more lives than huddling under a desk beneath an ICBM warhead.

If it's horrible and brutal to contemplate that kids that young have to learn about stuff that awful, welcome to the world created by right wing America, the same people who are trying to convince us that "woke" "cancel mobs" are the biggest threat to the Republic.

[DaveSumm]

I find it lamentable, not unusual. I find its presence in this conversation unusual, as we were talking about the Don’t Say Gay law which led to a discussion on what’s appropriate for young children to be taught, and nobody wants to have to teach kids about school shootings. So it’s a bad example. Nobody wanted kids to need to learn duck and covering in a nuclear attack, it’d be much preferable if the Cold War just didn’t happen. 

I’m also a little sceptical of this homogenous ‘right wing’ who apparently carry out all law making, shootings, and general villainy in what would have to be a strikingly coordinated operation.

[Ran]

If done properly, lockdown drills are not much different from fire, earthquake, or tornado drills -- kids hear an alarm, the PA announces a drill, and they bunker up in a room.

Unfortunately, there are some schools that have gone well beyond that and try to turn it all into theatre with guys waving around guns, even shooting blanks and pretending to kill people, and that is the sort of stuff that traumatizes kids. 

 I do think that the likelihood of the average child ever dealing with a school shooting in their student years is very near zero.

 

[DanteGabriel]

1 minute ago, DaveSumm said:

I’m also a little sceptical of this homogenous ‘right wing’ who apparently carry out all law making, shootings, and general villainy in what would have to be a strikingly coordinated operation.

I bet there are more of those folks than there are of people who want everyone to get free stuff all the time, that HoI contends to be a powerful political force.

[DaveSumm]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

I do think that the likelihood of a child ever dealing with a school shooting in their student years is very near zero.

I did try to look up the stats, and found sources ranging from 1 in 10,000,000 to 1 in 63 (!) depending on the politics of the source. So I considered that well nicely poisoned and gave up.