Canceled: co-opt

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I did try to look up the stats, and found sources ranging from 1 in 10,000,000 to 1 in 63 (!) depending on the politics of the source. So I considered that well nicely poisoned and gave up.

That 1 in 63 is a Reddit thread, yes? Even there people called bullshit and one fellow using math (and a lower, 1 in 1 million probability) came up with a .0015% chance of a student being killed/injured in a shooting, across their entire school career.

Whether the odds are 1 in a million or 1 in 10 million, the fact is that the chances are very near zero.

[Spockydog]

35 minutes ago, Ran said:

Unfortunately, there are some schools that have gone well beyond that and try to turn it all into theatre with guys waving around guns, even shooting blanks and pretending to kill people, and that is the sort of stuff that traumatizes kids. 

What in the actual fuck? 

[Zorral]

Idiots, mostly white xtian jerkwaddies, if these things happen.  The kinds who get off teaching racism and the War of the Rebellion by enacting slave auctions, lynchings and other horrors, in which black children get, guess which roles.

You're counting fatalities only.  Not to mention the many more shootings as well that take place every frakin' day, that include children as targets, wounded, killed, along with adults whether or not in a school.

Speak about how seldom this happens with the parents of the Sandy Hook children, those of Blackburg, VA.  But ya, since the majority of people killed, generally, aren't White, who cares.

You have no idea either, evidently, the ever-widening circles of trauma and grief in communities and among families who have experienced this, whether personally related by blood to someone killed or not.  Not to mention the kids themselves.

However, it seems, what you are actually proponeting, (yes, neologism) is very few children die from killers invading their schools, therefore they shouldn't be taught history, tolerance, fairness and compassion.  Or math either. 

You will be generous concerning my bitterness today though, surely, since I've been listening to kids and parents from that area of Buffalo all day, attempting to grapple with how to explain what happened in their supermarket to their children, particularly their very young children, who certainly haven't been shield by any other section of 'society' from seeing and hearing what just happened, and happened to friends even, family, even, of some of them.

Not to mention the guy who opened fire on the subway not far from me, not that long ago.  Kids ride the subway . . . .

Listening to these kids in Buffalo, and what they are saying, what their teachers -- not only their parents -- are saying, and how all of them want to know how to be safe.  It breaks your heart.  "How did it happen?  Why did it happen?"  And the answers cannot shield them.  Not speaking of it, which is what Florida legislators are trying to force upon us all, isn't going to help these kids.  But it does hide history, doesn't it?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

I find it lamentable, not unusual. I find its presence in this conversation unusual, as we were talking about the Don’t Say Gay law which led to a discussion on what’s appropriate for young children to be taught, and nobody wants to have to teach kids about school shootings. So it’s a bad example. Nobody wanted kids to need to learn duck and covering in a nuclear attack, it’d be much preferable if the Cold War just didn’t happen. 

You from the US? Because actually yes, there are a lot of advocates for it whether they view it as a necessary tool to prevent loss of life or because they're fine with it being a necessary cost of having loose gun laws.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

as we were talking about the Don’t Say Gay law which led to a discussion on what’s appropriate for young children to be taught,

So can you actually give a specific age range for when instruction in regards to sexuality should be allowed allowed? Whether that be why in regards to historical systemic abuses or just explaining why certain bullying is wrong(ex.kid gets picked on for having two dads).

You seem to think five is too young for the former at least. Okay. But where is the actual starting point you’d be comfortable with?

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Is anyone happy that we need to teach kids school shooter procedures? Isn’t that an unfortunate byproduct of a completely different problem?

Is anyone happy we need to teach kids about kidnappers or the threat of sexual abusers. The trauma of being kidnapped or abused is far greater learning about how to avoid/respond to either.

utopia isn’t in are grasp, so we have to contend at some point we’d have to teach kids about some bad stuff that exists in the world that could hurt them.

[BigFatCoward]

From the news it would seem that almost every school shooting in America is a high school one? Why are 5 year olds getting trained when a) they are phenomenally unlikely to need to be and b) why wouldn't you just train the teachers and have them tell the kids what to do? 

I know 5 year olds, they are either going to do what the teacher says or not, training for scenarios is pointless. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Why are 5 year olds getting trained when a) they are phenomenally unlikely to need to be and b) why wouldn't you just train the teachers and have them tell the kids what to do? 

They’re unlikely to be kidnapped comparatively—we still teach them to not get in cars with strangers

In America often with the instruction of a police officer to give a further air of seriousness.

Wouldn’t b still count as training kids?

9 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I know 5 year olds, they are either going to do what the teacher says or not, training for scenarios is pointless. 

Repetition breeds instinct even among lower animals.
Even if it’s just for the teacher to be adjusted to give out such instructions I  can see a value in it.

[BigFatCoward]

22 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

They’re unlikely to be kidnapped comparatively—we still teach them to not get in cars with strangers

 

Wouldn’t b still count as training kids?

 

I'm alright with telling kids to not get into cars with strangers, not ok with false kidnapping scenarios to prepare them. The risk/reward is skewed wrong. 

I meant if an active shooter incident happened. You train the teacher to respond appropriately, they instruct the children if it ever occurs. 

[Heartofice]

If this conversation is anything to go by, it seems there is literally nothing they we don’t NEED to be teaching 5 year old children RIGHT NOW! 

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

If this conversation is anything to go by, it seems there is literally nothing they we don’t NEED to be teaching 5 year old children RIGHT NOW! 

If this conversation is anything to go by it seems unless children are ready to write a PhD paper on a given topic they shouldn’t be given any instruction on a given topic.

 

Which is silly as it demand schools never teach kids anything ever up till high school, and just have be basic daycare service.

Tell me when you’d actually comfortable with schools giving any instructions on the civil rights movement whether in regards to race or the lgbt community?

You say five is too young. I disagree. I don’t think kids who learned about MLk at that age were traumatized. But, at least give age  where you think it’s okay to even reference the man around kids?

When is it okay for them to learn about the us military’s very recent policy of kicking out gay people from their ranks?

7? 8? 15? 

[Ran]

8 hours ago, Spockydog said:

What in the actual fuck? 

This article covers some reaction and discussion to these over-blown drills.

In general this discussion is people talking past one another, straw manning back and forth. I'm thinking it's time to close it because it's not productive.