Ukraine Part 5: war...it never changes

[Fez]

6 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

I think I'm sick of watching people get fucking churned like they're in a murder factory by military powers, no matter what nationality or color they are. And I think, if he doesn't back off soon we're going to have to risk it.  

You shouldn't be so cavalier about the end of the world. 

I hate what's happening too, it's nightmarish. But things are different when dealing with nuclear powers. They simply have to be; else you're condemning billions to die.

[Corvinus85]

Are there electricity producing plants as backups because if not, a lot of people will lose electricity without that station running?

And if your plan was to simply to get them to shut down the plant and had the capacity to bring military assets close enough to shoot at fucking buildings, maybe just go in there and force the operators to shut down the plant instead of shelling the place. FFS

[Pebble thats Stubby]

4 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

I think I'm sick of watching people get fucking churned like they're in a murder factory by military powers, no matter what nationality or color they are. And I think, if he doesn't back off soon we're going to have to risk it.  

I can understand this.  I want us to do something.  I want us to hit Putin so hard he never pokes his head out again.  I want us to send a message the world will remember.  and it really bothers me that we can't do this.  we really do have our hands tied behind our backs and it sucks.  It sucks more for the Ukrainians admittedly who are dying because we can't do enough without ending the world.

 

I feel that I kind of understand how Churchill felt when we learnt Germany planned to bomb Coventry.  we could have done something and saved some lives in the short term, but this would have tipped the Germans off we could read their messages.    We could do something now but in all likely hood that will cost far more than the destruction of Coventry.  and I'm sorry,  Sorry is not enough, but its all I got.

[JGP]

 

1 minute ago, Fez said:

You shouldn't be so cavalier about the end of the world. 

I hate what's happening too, it's nightmarish. But things are different when dealing with nuclear powers. They simply have to be; else you're condemning billions to die.

I'm not being cavalier about this at all. 

Putin is.

[Conflicting Thought]

9 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

I think I'm sick of watching people get fucking churned like they're in a murder factory by military powers, no matter what nationality or color they are. And I think, if he doesn't back off soon we're going to have to risk it.  

Why is ukraine THE defining war,in wich we have to risk it? Why not for palestine, or yemen, iraq, afghanistan.

[Jaxom 1974]

1 hour ago, Kalibuster said:

 

That said, the hunt for red October had good advice for firing things around fissile materials that should at least be considered.

Oddly enough, watching that on BBC America tonight...I wondered if the channel was trolling us...

[Conflicting Thought]

3 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

I want us to send a message the world will remember.

What the fuck

[Pebble thats Stubby]

Just now, Conflicting Thought said:

What the fuck

you just gonna quote me out of context?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

21 minutes ago, Fez said:

You think a NATO-Russia war doesn't end in the nukes flying?

And assassinating Putin....deescalates things? 

That seems like quite the gamble. 

[JGP]

 

5 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Why is ukraine THE defining war,in wich we have to risk it? Why not for palestine, or yemen, iraq, afghanistan.

We wouldn't have been risking it in any of those conflicts, which makes them more tragic, not less-- and if we all make it through this one, the better part of me hopes we [the international community] will finally correct things that should've been corrected a long time ago. Disarmament being one, learning to fucking mediate instead of meddle being another. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Oddly enough, watching that on BBC America tonight...I wondered if the channel was trolling us...

I watched it on BBC America a few weeks ago!  I think I saw it on there during the Super Bowl too.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

24 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

What the fuck

Perhaps I need to spell it out.

I am angry, annoyed and disgusted with Putin and what he is doing.  If Putin did not have Nukes the response would have been much more like our response when Iraq invaded Kiewit.  At least as far as kicking Russian Troops out of Ukraine.  I really hope we would have done better with the aftermath.  (and yes I'm fucking annoyed with what happened after GW1)

 

The fact that Russia has Nukes means we can't act.  we can't put in a No Fly Zone  or blow up that Russian Convoy and their other forces inside Ukraine.  we mostly have to sit back and let the Ukrainian's die.  and that fucking annoys me and makes me want to do even more.  But even if it was an option being annoyed is the worst reason to do something.

 

I do hope you understand there is a difference between wanting to react and actually reacting?

 

[IFR]

20 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Are there electricity producing plants as backups because if not, a lot of people will lose electricity without that station running?

According to the EIA:

Quote

• In 2020, Ukraine generated a total of 149 billion kilowatthours (kWh) of electricity, most of which was nuclear powered. Four nuclear plants with 15 reactors generated over 51% of the total electric power supply in 2020. Fossil fuels, particularly coal and natural gas, have traditionally made up a substantial portion of electric power generation. In 2020, fossil fuels accounted for 37% of generation. Contributions from renewables and other sources have been marginal.

Link

This is of 23,000 MW.

According to Reuters, an additional 3,400 MW can be produced, but it's unclear from what source that additional power can be drawn. Apparently Ukraine can import electricity from Belarus, but not the rest of Europe.

Link

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, JEORDHl said:

We've fucked up, bad, in the last few decades but I think, and I'm not saying I'm right, but, I think the world has gotten [or soon will] to a place where we just can't continue to watch this happen. Yeah, the Ukrainians didn't have a choice, but they're putting it all out there and even if this seems isolated, it's really not.

I'm pretty sure it was taken a different way than I meant it when I was arguing with Tywin about sanctions before the actual shooting started, but this is the kind of sentiment that I was saying people should just come out and say if they think this truly is that red line. I don't think I agree with it, but I certainly sympathize with the emotion that its coming from and think its a morally defensible position to say "we need to stand together to ensure countries don't get picked off one by one even if that means military action".

Obviously that would come with the absolutely massive caveat that the west needs to abide by this in the future as  well.

I still think the risk is too high, but I get it - if you believe the hot war which risks a nuclear exchange is coming in the future if we don't do something now, then it makes sense to risk that hot war now to try prevent that future.

53 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

I can understand this.  I want us to do something.  I want us to hit Putin so hard he never pokes his head out again.  I want us to send a message the world will remember. 

48 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

What the fuck

I actually think this is probably some crossed wires making that sound very different to what Pebble meant.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure CT is interpreting "us" to mean something along the lines of "the west/the US/UK" etc, but that Pebble's statement was meant to be along the lines of "I want us [the entirety of the world's community] to send a message that we don't live like that anymore, nations do not get to annex their neighbours while everyone else watches on".

Please correct me if I'm wrong Pebble. 

I also think this partially addresses the question of "why now, why this war?" - because major wars in Europe sadly have a history to escalate and grow and fuck everyone. The deaths of white Ukrainian civilians are no more tragic than the civilian deaths in Syria, in Yemen, in Sudan, in Libya, in Iraq and its damning of us that those have happened. But there is a genuine risk to this conflict which is that Europe (and its children) wind up reverting to pre-1940s ideas of how the world works and that prevents a threat to everyone.

That was one of the things which really clicked for me in the speech from the Kenyan Ambassador's address to the UN - that from Africa's point of view this could feel very akin to the GTA guy meme "ah shit, here we go again - Europe is going to get back on its bullshit".

[Pebble thats Stubby]

4 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I'm pretty sure it was taken a different way than I meant it when I was arguing with Tywin about sanctions before the actual shooting started, but this is the kind of sentiment that I was saying people should just come out and say if they think this truly is that red line. I don't think I agree with it, but I certainly sympathize with the emotion that its coming from and think its a morally defensible position to say "we need to stand together to ensure countries don't get picked off one by one even if that means military action".

Obviously that would come with the absolutely massive caveat that the west needs to abide by this in the future as  well.

I still think the risk is too high, but I get it - if you believe the hot war which risks a nuclear exchange is coming in the future if we don't do something now, then it makes sense to risk that hot war now to try prevent that future.

I actually think this is probably some crossed wires making that sound very different to what Pebble meant.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure CT is interpreting "us" to mean something along the lines of "the west/the US/UK" etc, but that Pebble's statement was meant to be along the lines of "I want us [the entirety of the world's community] to send a message that we don't live like that anymore, nations do not get to annex their neighbours while everyone else watches on".

Please correct me if I'm wrong Pebble. 

I also think this partially addresses the question of "why now, why this war?" - because major wars in Europe sadly have a history to escalate and grow and fuck everyone. The deaths of white Ukrainian civilians are no more tragic than the civilian deaths in Syria, in Yemen, in Sudan, in Libya, in Iraq and its damning of us that those have happened. But there is a genuine risk to this conflict which is that Europe (and its children) wind up reverting to pre-1940s ideas of how the world works and that prevents a threat to everyone.

That was one of the things which really clicked for me in the speech from the Kenyan Ambassador's address to the UN - that from Africa's point of view this could feel very akin to the GTA guy meme "ah shit, here we go again - Europe is going to get back on its bullshit".

 

Yeah  I want the whole world to tell Russia (and anyone else thinking of doing similar) that we will not tolerate invasions and bombing people.  And that includes my own government in other wars / conflicts.  Kinda like the World told Iraq invading Kiewit was not acceptable.  - (I don't agree with what happened after fyi,  and I was young at the time so my impression of what happened in detail is somewhat hazy).  If Putin gets away with taking Ukraine his track record shows he will take part or all of another country, which is another reason to want to stop him.

 

I just want peace and everyone to be nice to each other.  I also know if you don't stand up to bullies then you can never have peace.

 

 I also personally have a desire to kick Putin really hard in the balls so he permeantly speaks in a squeakier and higher pitched voice than me for the rest of his life.   Would I actually kick him in the balls if I had the chance even if I knew there would be no repercussions?  Probably not because despite wanting to do such a thing I know violence is wrong.

[Toth]

I think we should start with adding to the Geneva conventions that civilian nuclear power plants should be considered a demilitarized zone where neither sides are allowed to shoot around like idiots. You'd think common fucking sense would be enough for soldiers to realize that blowing themselves and half of Europe up is a baaaad idea, but apparently it is not and you have spell out the fucking obvious.

[JGP]

You get it, Karaddin. 

---

 

26 minutes ago, karaddin said:

That was one of the things which really clicked for me in the speech from the Kenyan Ambassador's address to the UN - that from Africa's point of view this could feel very akin to the GTA guy meme "ah shit, here we go again - Europe is going to get back on its bullshit".

Me too.  No idea who he was before that, but definitely felt some pride in my fellow man. He was 100 on Europe.

[JGP]

5 minutes ago, Toth said:

I think we should start with adding to the Geneva conventions that civilian nuclear power plants should be considered a demilitarized zone where neither sides are allowed to shoot around like idiots. You'd think common fucking sense would be enough for soldiers to realize that blowing themselves and half of Europe up is a baaaad idea, but apparently it is not and you have spell out the fucking obvious.

That and like, I don't know, making sure motherfuckers like this lose their jobs along with everyones' respect. 

 

 

 

[karaddin]

On the nuclear power plant front - I'd have thought it would be far easier and safer to destroy the transmission lines which allow the generated power to be used than trying to destroy the plant itself. Obviously they're a lot easier to repair than a plant is, but if you're intending to occupy this territory as well then that becomes a selling point rather than a flaw in the future. It surely can't be that hard for a military with air superiority to keep the transmission lines cut by repeatedly blowing up parts of them as soon as they're repaired?

[JGP]

Why miss out on a chance for a little terror theater though. It's was a statement too. Putin's sadism is all over it.