Tyrion's Interactions with Tywin Frustrate Me to No End

[BlackLightning]

I know how you feel; I feel the same way.

Tyrion is self-defeating.

Yes, Tywin is a terrible person. But Tywin was not completely wrong in his opinion of Tyrion. Tyrion has some major problems that have nothing to do with Tysha or Tywin

 

Threatening Tommen (and actually meaning it) is a huge black mark against Tyrion. Not doing or saying anything about Littlefinger is another one.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I know how you feel; I feel the same way.

Tyrion is self-defeating.

Yes, Tywin is a terrible person. But Tywin was not completely wrong in his opinion of Tyrion. Tyrion has some major problems that have nothing to do with Tysha or Tywin

 

Threatening Tommen (and actually meaning it) is a huge black mark against Tyrion. Not doing or saying anything about Littlefinger is another one.

Don't you think Tywin's telling Tyrion how worthless he is his whole life would have played a major part in that though? 

What issues does Tyrion have that don't relate, in any way, back to Tywin? Not to say I think every single issue he has is Tywin's fault, I'm just curious to know which you think had nothing to do with him at all. 

 

Iirc Tyrion specifically says later he didn't mean it when he threatened Tommen. That he would never have carried through with anything against him, so I'd also be curious to know where you are coming up with that. 

[The Sunland Lord]

I think Tyrion knows from the start Tywin won't give him any credit anyways, so saying something or keeping it to himself wouldn't make a difference. 

He's not doing himself any favours, but it's not like he would gain something from it, either way. 

[Hrulj]

On 3/16/2022 at 6:21 PM, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I respectfully disagree. Tywin tries to guide Cersei & Jaime, but he is only interested in putting Tyrion to shame. 

 

I disagree, I think Tyrion does exhibit behavior that instills respect. I think Tyrion practices much of the same policy Tywin does, in fact. 

All of the Lannisters rely on the fear the name brings & the money they have, except maybe Jaime. Tywin would be no one with nothing if he didn't rely on the fear & money, Cersei certainly never would have become Queen with out it. 

What makes you think Tyrion craves power? Or anything else you've said about him, really. You can make the claim but without text to back it, it is only the feeling you get. 

If Tyrion is ruling others obey because he has the entirety of the Lannisters money, fear, and the entirety of the Kings money & fear backing him...

And with whose money did she get into the position of Queen? It's Lannister money bailing out the crown repeatedly as well. 

Speaking of whoring, do you not find it highly hypocritical that the whore Tyrion was forbidden to bring to KL is found in Tywins bed? What right does Tywin have to condemn Tyrion for having a whore when he had a wife & Tywin ruined it & Tywin is apparently into the same thing - whoring. 

Jon, Bran, Catelyn (even after she arrested him for no reason), Bronn, Shae, Tysha, the mountain clans, the men of the NW, Tommen, Myrcella, Jaime, etc. Tons of people. 

 

Yeah, I wish he would have done something about LF but Tywin, Cersei, Robert, nor Joffrey did anything about him either. 

How can Tyrion rule effectively if the people he is trying to work with are going behind his back to his insane sister? 

 

I didn't say he knew his father was coming, I'm saying what more could he have done? What more could Tywin have done in the same situation? He didn't gamble, he did all he could do. 

He only shames Tyrion for actions Tyrion takes that are shameful. He still tries to teach or coax something good out of all 3.

 

Please can you present what behavior he exhibits that elicits respect of others? Tywins fear and money is his own. Tyrion relies on fear of his father, not fear of himself. Tywin isn't feared due to simple cruelty but due to ability to back it up. 

 

Tywins father had the money and Lannister rule, didn't help at all. And he was just a jovial man, not a dwarf. 

 

Fucking whores in secret is not the same as flaunting your actions for the world to see. From wall to the Dorne everyone knows Tyrion as a lecherous drunkard whoremonger demon monkey. 

 

 

[BlackLightning]

7 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Don't you think Tywin's telling Tyrion how worthless he is his whole life would have played a major part in that though? 

What issues does Tyrion have that don't relate, in any way, back to Tywin? Not to say I think every single issue he has is Tywin's fault, I'm just curious to know which you think had nothing to do with him at all. 

 

Iirc Tyrion specifically says later he didn't mean it when he threatened Tommen. That he would never have carried through with anything against him, so I'd also be curious to know where you are coming up with that. 

Tyrion says he didn't mean it when he threatened Tommen?! Oh, come on, give me a break. He meant it. He only said that to Tywin because he knew he was in deep water about that.

Look the moral event horizon in this series boils down to what do you do with the lives of innocent children, regardless of their social status. That's how you can separate the good guys (Ned, Daenerys) from the bad (the Mountain, Cersei, Jaime etc.)

Tyrion should have never let such a thing come out of his mouth if he didn't mean it. And his actions at that time period reiterates the fact that he meant it. At the very least, he dealt with Tommen in a very reckless way; he could've gotten him killed. Balon Greyjoy (of all people, ha-ha!) said it best.

What was meant is what was said.

 

I think Tyrion's general attitude and the way he spends money has little to nothing to do with Tywin but are a big part of the reason why Tywin doesn't trust him with Casterly Rock.

 

Tywin wasn't happy with any of his children...and for good reason seeing as all three are varying degrees of pathetic and stupid.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Hrulj said:

He only shames Tyrion for actions Tyrion takes that are shameful. He still tries to teach or coax something good out of all 3.

That isn't true tho. He shames Tyrion for merely being a dwarf, for waddling, for "killing" his own mother. 

 

3 hours ago, Hrulj said:

Please can you present what behavior he exhibits that elicits respect of others? Tywins fear and money is his own. Tyrion relies on fear of his father, not fear of himself. Tywin isn't feared due to simple cruelty but due to ability to back it up

I will but I've asked for evidence of your claims as well. When he makes Bran a saddle, when he promises the men of the NW he will ask the crown for more men & then follows thru with it, when he commands the men at the BotBW & the when he commands the mountain men. There are more. 

 

3 hours ago, Hrulj said:

Tywins father had the money and Lannister rule, didn't help at all. And he was just a jovial man, not a dwarf. 

Exactly, so if Tyrion had the same things at his disposal what would stop him from backing up what he says? This isn't a matter of Tywin being a bad ass physically, everything that makes Tywin, Tywin could make Tyrion as well. 

 

3 hours ago, Hrulj said:

Fucking whores in secret is not the same as flaunting your actions for the world to see. From wall to the Dorne everyone knows Tyrion as a lecherous drunkard whoremonger demon monkey.

But did he do that? They had to search to find Tyrion's whore because he did not flaunt her for all the realm to see, in fact he kept her quite hidden. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Tyrion says he didn't mean it when he threatened Tommen?! Oh, come on, give me a break. He meant it. He only said that to Tywin because he knew he was in deep water about that.

He could have but I would think if he had meant it GRRM would have given us evidence of such, rather than giving us evidence he didn't mean it - He says he didn't, he has never one time tried to hurt Tommen, has been nothing but nice to him his entire life, speaks fondly of him. 

 

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Tyrion should have never let such a thing come out of his mouth if he didn't mean it. And his actions at that time period reiterates the fact that he meant it. At the very least, he dealt with Tommen in a very reckless way; he could've gotten him killed. Balon Greyjoy (of all people, ha-ha!) said it best.

What actions reiterate he meant it? He took no action against Tommen despite the fact that his bluff was called. 

We all say things we don't mean from time to time. 

 

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

I think Tyrion's general attitude and the way he spends money has little to nothing to do with Tywin but are a big part of the reason why Tywin doesn't trust him with Casterly Rock.

How could his attitude have nothing to do with his upbringing & the abuse he has suffered? That's not very realistic. 

 

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Tywin wasn't happy with any of his children...and for good reason seeing as all three are varying degrees of pathetic and stupid.

Ahh I disagree but that's another convo. I think they have all done stupid things but I don't think they are stupid. They have all behaved pathetically but they are not pathetic. 

[Wall Flower]

Abusers like Tywin (or Joffrey for that matter) can't be placated or won over. It didn't matter what Tyrion did, he was never going to win the love or respect that he craved from his father. Indeed Tywin's modus operandi was to make sure that Tyrion was reminded at every opportunity that no-one would ever love or respect him for himself. If Tyrion made a mistake, it was taking too long to cut loose from his family - understandably, since as a dwarf his options were more limited than someone like Jaime.

[Angel Eyes]

On 3/18/2022 at 12:53 PM, Hrulj said:

He only shames Tyrion for actions Tyrion takes that are shameful. He still tries to teach or coax something good out of all 3.

 

Please can you present what behavior he exhibits that elicits respect of others? Tywins fear and money is his own. Tyrion relies on fear of his father, not fear of himself. Tywin isn't feared due to simple cruelty but due to ability to back it up. 

 

Tywins father had the money and Lannister rule, didn't help at all. And he was just a jovial man, not a dwarf. 

 

Fucking whores in secret is not the same as flaunting your actions for the world to see. From wall to the Dorne everyone knows Tyrion as a lecherous drunkard whoremonger demon monkey. 

 

 

So if Tywin views Tyrion as an embarrassment, why allow Tyrion means to embarrass the family (outside of existing)? For example, why give him money to pay for whores and wine?

[Hrulj]

On 3/18/2022 at 3:35 PM, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

That isn't true tho. He shames Tyrion for merely being a dwarf, for waddling, for "killing" his own mother. 

 

I will but I've asked for evidence of your claims as well. When he makes Bran a saddle, when he promises the men of the NW he will ask the crown for more men & then follows thru with it, when he commands the men at the BotBW & the when he commands the mountain men. There are more. 

 

Exactly, so if Tyrion had the same things at his disposal what would stop him from backing up what he says? This isn't a matter of Tywin being a bad ass physically, everything that makes Tywin, Tywin could make Tyrion as well. 

 

But did he do that? They had to search to find Tyrion's whore because he did not flaunt her for all the realm to see, in fact he kept her quite hidden. 

 

He doesn't shame him for it. He holds it against him. As do his future potential vassals. Harsh truth Tyrion and fandom can't handle. 

 

When he keeps Thorne waiting till the hand rots away leading to kingdom ignoring mortal danger due to his petty nature as well? 

 

Backing with what? All he has to offer is money. Sure he can get ruthless mercenaries around himself for a while, lose further respect with it and ultimately be murdered by some of them. 

Hiding single whore so your sister doesn't murder her after you ignored your fathers command not to bring her with you is not the regular action Tyrion takes. Imp isn't named that just for his height. 

 

On 3/19/2022 at 9:31 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So if Tywin views Tyrion as an embarrassment, why allow Tyrion means to embarrass the family (outside of existing)? For example, why give him money to pay for whores and wine?

It would be greater embarassment to have him destitute or begging. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

He doesn't shame him for it. He holds it against him. As do his future potential vassals. Harsh truth Tyrion and fandom can't handle. 

I see little difference in shaming him & holding it against him. Tyrion knows it quite well, what is the purpose in "holding it against him" if not to shame him? 

 

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

When he keeps Thorne waiting till the hand rots away leading to kingdom ignoring mortal danger due to his petty nature as well? 

Don't move the goal posts, you asked for examples of when his behavior is deserving of respect & I gave you examples. Yes, he has exhibited behavior not worthy of respect also. 

 

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

Backing with what? All he has to offer is money. Sure he can get ruthless mercenaries around himself for a while, lose further respect with it and ultimately be murdered by some of them. 

No, we are misunderstanding each other I think. I'm saying if Tyrion was Lord of Casterly Rock, with all of the funds & armies at his disposal that Tywin has, what would stop him from backing it up? 

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

Hiding single whore so your sister doesn't murder her after you ignored your fathers command not to bring her with you is not the regular action Tyrion takes. Imp isn't named that just for his height. 

Again, moving the goal posts. You said he was fucking a whore for all the realm to see. That isn't what happened. 

[chrisdaw]

I agree and it brought me to a chicken/egg type question.

Are Tywin's children in part dipshits because of the way he treated them? Or does he treat them that way because they're dipshits?

Tywin thinking Tyrion is a clown is fair enough (obviously that doesn't justify everything Tywin did) given their interactions and Tyrion's general carry on. Cersei is extremely near sighted and reactionary. Jaime is the one with sense but while Tywin was alive did everything he could to avoid adulthood and responsibility.

[Arthur Peres]

42 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Are Tywin's children in part dipshits because of the way he treated them? Or does he treat them that way because they're dipshits?

 

A little bit of both I would say.

Jaime, Cersei are very narcissistic people that see themselfs as superior to others, Tywin's pride, acomplishments and blindness to their behaviour help to inflate it even more, they have done nothing, acomplished even less, and messed everything, but hide and take credit for big daddys feats. The fact that they both have gotten away with everything from Kingslaying to incest is other factor that probably makes the situation even worse. Jaime is on his 30's and more than half of the teens in the story are more mature than him.

Tyrion would always have some problem and complex about his condition, everyone is always using it against him, so even if Tywin was caring it would be a issue, but Tywin takes a bad situation makes it even worse, and seeing the diference in the ways Tyrion is treated compared to Jaime is kind of surprising how he was even able to be friends with his elder brother, resentment and envy would be natural in such relationship.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I agree and it brought me to a chicken/egg type question.

Are Tywin's children in part dipshits because of the way he treated them? Or does he treat them that way because they're dipshits?

Tywin thinking Tyrion is a clown is fair enough (obviously that doesn't justify everything Tywin did) given their interactions and Tyrion's general carry on. Cersei is extremely near sighted and reactionary. Jaime is the one with sense but while Tywin was alive did everything he could to avoid adulthood and responsibility.

Right. It's nature vs nurture & I don't think there is an agreement even irl as to which is the bigger influence. It's an odd thing. I think they are both an influence but it's hard to say which is more. I suspect if Tywin hadn't turned a blind eye to Cersei & Jaime & had not treated Tyrion they way he did they would be better off, but how much better? 

[Wall Flower]

22 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Right. It's nature vs nurture & I don't think there is an agreement even irl as to which is the bigger influence. It's an odd thing. I think they are both an influence but it's hard to say which is more. I suspect if Tywin hadn't turned a blind eye to Cersei & Jaime & had not treated Tyrion they way he did they would be better off, but how much better? 

I think that Cersei and Jaime get their toxic values direct from Tywin. Who else instilled in them a sense that the Lannisters were above everyone else and that the rules didn't apply to them.

I've always thought that Tywin had a bad case of dragon-envy. He wanted the Lannisters to be above the laws of gods and men just like the Targaryens. No confirmation in canon but I can't help thinking that part of Joanna's appeal for Tywin was that she was Lannister and a cousin. No wonder their kids ended up in an incestuous relationship. No one else was really good enough for them, especially after Rhaegar was off the table for Cersei. 

[GOTSeriesfan]

Tyrion was best-suited to claim his family's seat of power, due to the Andal gender-blind primogeniture where a younger son is ahead of an elder daughter in inheritance. He had the cunning and experience in governance and he was in control of himself so he wasn't a drunk or a witless fool nor was he easily made a puppet. And Tywin refused to make him his successor because of his dwarfism and his promiscuity, which was due to Tywin and Cersei, no less, and Joanna dying in childbirth. Couldn't Tywin be smart enough to see that after birthing twins, another childbirth might be hard on her? And unlike Tywin, who was concerned with only his family's prestige and nobody's wellbeing, Tyrion also had the welfare of the country in mind, as Varys saw. So should he be reinstated into the hierarchy, he would be the Lord of Casterly Rock, as Tywin's last living son, and possibly a better ruler than his father ever was.

[DragonEmpress]

The thing is, Tyrion always gets really triggered by Tywin because Tywin is the one person that Tyrion actually wants to be like. 

So, Tyrion always reverts to "jokes" to showcase his wit because he always feels inferior in front of Tywin. Instead of making himself look smarter, he just makes himself look weak. 

I know it has been foreshadowed that Tyrion might lose his tongue... He can't help himself sometimes (eg. in the Eyrie, with Jorah, at his trial, the way he openly spoke to Joffrey was used against him). He can't deny himself the immediate gratification of a "witty" remark, and this matches his inability to check his other appetites (wine, women). In the end, it makes him weak, makes him look weak, and always ends up costing him. 

I think Tywin saw these things in Tyrion because Tywin also has some of the same issues but is much better at presenting a commanding image. 

[John Suburbs]

On 3/3/2022 at 8:26 PM, FourRavensBlackOnWhite said:

Let me start by saying, yes, Tywin emotionally abused and manipulated Tyrion from the time he was a child so i can understand Tyrion's reservations when speaking to his father. However, the consistent lack of truth and seriousness with which Tyrion speaks to Tywin always makes me grind my teeth in frustration.

 

Every interaction is as if Tyrion tries his hardest to be witty, when these are some of the few times his more serious side would command more respect. They don't have too many direct interactions, and only a couple 1 on 1, but this holds particularly true after Tyrion's injury on the blackwater.

1. He goes to see his father in the tower of the hand while injured (this is good and shows strength!)

2. Every single sentence out of his mouth is a joke. Does anyone have any psychological explanation for this? Is it a defense mechanism? Trying to hard to appear "strong" in the one area he is strongest in? (in any case, I call it extreme folly)

3. Tywin comments on the stupidity of his sortie to defend the King's Gate, and instead of indicating the importance of stopping the battering ram, he mentions it in passing and makes a joke, which then eclipses the whole event in his father's eyes

4.Tywin compliments Littlefinger's success in facilitating the Lannister-Tyrell Alliance, and Tyrion thinks to himself how it was his idea, and says nothing.

5. Tyrion then gets (justifiably) angry that he is being undercut in his role defending the city, and it all goes downhill. Tywin even compliments him (in his cold fashion) on the chain and the Dorneish alliance and his advice on "putting down" Ser Gregor to appease Dorne, yet ends with more sarcasm in response. Then he goes into his whole spiel about Casterly Rock, which he knows was wrong.

 

Maybe I am missing something, but would a small amount of truth and seriousness not go a long way in communicating with his father? I know Tywin is hard, and merciless, but he cares about his legacy and his family name, so shouldn't Tyrion have the wits to work with that? Meet him on a field he understands? I just don't understand why there is never any honest dialog from Tyrion to his father.

Yep. No excuses for Tywin, although he does pretty much emotionally abuse and manipulate pretty much everyone, not just Tyrion. If Tyrion had just played a little ball with his father his life would have been a whole lot better.

Tywin doesn't care about drinking and whoring, just that Tyrion does it so openly and unabashedly. A lord's son, even a dwarf, should show discretion. And yes, wisecracking is the last way to get a positive outcome from Tywin Lannister. Note that when Tyrion does show some seriousness -- like pointing out that a peace with Robb is impossible now that Tyrion took Ned's head -- Tywin rewards him with the acting Hand appointment.

And I love the bit about how Tywin lets other speak at meetings, a habit Tyrion tries to emulate. Really, Tyrion?

It seems that Tyrion's problem is that he thinks everyone looks down at him because he's a dwarf. But they look down on him because he's kind of a prick.

But from Tywin's PoV, he is disgusted by all three of his children because they constantly make decisions based on what's best for them, not for House Lannister. So Tyrion and all his antics. Jaime not wanting to become lord of CR. Cersei putting up a fuss about her next husband. These are all things that good little lords and ladies are supposed to do for the betterment of their houses, like the Tyrells do.

And all three children view Tyrion as a vile, hateful lord who only wants to make their lives miserable, when in fact he's trying to exalt them to masters of the kingdom. They also don't realize (except maybe Tyrion only recently) that when Tywin was young, he had to eat plenty of crap sandwiches from his father and his king. He got jerked around just as much as they are, and they will jerk their children around just as much. It's not all that unusual of a family dynamic, actually.