Ukraine War 6: what the hell are the Russians thinking?

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

I think Putin may have been Quantum Leaped.

bloody Scott Bakula. 

First he killed Star Trek for TV, then he joined one of those awful NCIS: Who gives a toss franchises, now he's leaped into Putin.

I am genuinely not sure, for which part he needs to get kicked in the nuts most.

[sologdin]

i suppose he's consistent--if ukraine has always been part of russia, as its etymological 'borderland,' and its alleged bolshevik separation was a fiction, then it can't ever have been a neighbor and thus russian occupation of it is a purely internal police action rather than a foreign invasion. all neighbors can accordingly rest assured and furthermore end sanctions; all other fictions should brace themselves however for additional internal police actions. i suspect he should file this claim in the ICJ, however, before attempting to eject NATO from the baltics.

[Fez]

Is it me or does Putin's face look extremely puffy compared to normal?

[Maithanet]

2 minutes ago, Fez said:

Is it me or does Putin's face look extremely puffy compared to normal?

Just in general Putin does not look well of late.  Long gone are the days of shirtless "can you believe he's sixty?" photo ops.

[JGP]

22 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

There were a number of stories before and just after the initial invasion discussing how Wall St. and other large financial institutions were succeeding in lobbying to water down any potential sanctions. 

In America, the moneyed interests tend to get their way. 

Dude, I'd pay serious money for Warren to do a presser and explain this graph to the American people.

[GrimTuesday]

Love when a trusted American news outlet brings on fucking Nazis.

Remember what I said about western news sources uncritically giving legitimacy to ultra nationalist/neo-nazi figures? Last time it was a "Ukrainian activist" who was the head of Right Sector in Odessa, which yeah, sure maybe you don't catch that before taking that segment to air, but this is inexcusable. A quick google search can tell you this asshole is a member of Svoboda which is well known as a neo-nazi party. Also even if you somehow missed that, the big ol' picture of Stepan Bandera should be all the information you need to cut this interview. This absolutely raises massive red flags about how this was allowed to go to air, and whoever green lit this should be fired, preferably out of a cannon.

As I said before, the presence of the far right in Ukraine does not in any way justify Putin's actions, the larger issue here is how the US and the west interacts with those elements of Ukrainian society. Positive coverage in the west gives these people legitimacy both in Ukraine, and to those watching from the west, and if Zelensky is killed, these people who are being held up as heroes absolutely have a path from the fringes where they exist now, into the mainstream.

[Gorn]

4 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Love when a trusted American news outlet brings on fucking Nazis.

Remember what I said about western news sources uncritically giving legitimacy to ultra nationalist/neo-nazi figures? Last time it was a "Ukrainian activist" who was the head of Right Sector in Odessa, which yeah, sure maybe you don't catch that before taking that segment to air, but this is inexcusable. A quick google search can tell you this asshole is a member of Svoboda which is well known as a neo-nazi party. Also even if you somehow missed that, the big ol' picture of Stepan Bandera should be all the information you need to cut this interview. This absolutely raises massive red flags about how this was allowed to go to air, and whoever green lit this should be fired, preferably out of a cannon.

As I said before, the presence of the far right in Ukraine does not in any way justify Putin's actions, the larger issue here is how the US and the west interacts with those elements of Ukrainian society. Positive coverage in the west gives these people legitimacy both in Ukraine, and to those watching from the west, and if Zelensky is killed, these people who are being held up as heroes absolutely have a path from the fringes where they exist now, into the mainstream.

At the moment, these guys are literally anti-fascists.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, JEORDHl said:

I'm looking at this graph, and wonder what. in the. fuck. is up with the US and UK

Yeah, doesn't look good.  Wish I could get more detail on this though (e.g. what entities the US and UK aren't sanctioning that the EU, etc. are).  I do wonder if there's any lag there due to the US only announcing further sanctions on certain oligarchs and their companies, as well Treasury targeting disinformation companies, that were announced just yesterday.  A lot of that was to bring them in line with measures the EU already took:

Quote

Thursday’s action helps bring the United States in line with measures the European Union took earlier this week.

The EU on Monday imposed sanctions on 26 prominent people over Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, including oligarchs and business people active in the oil, banking and finance sectors. The EU measures included Peskov and Usmanov.

Britain on Thursday also imposed sanctions on Usmanov and Shuvalov.

Of course, why the delay on behalf of the US and UK is quite curious in and of itself.

[Ran]

The guy is the mayor of the town and was featured prominently in footage out of Ukraine, both in negotiating with the Russians and then in informing the town that they needed to decide together whether to fight or not. That's his legitimacy as someone to talk to to discuss those specific events.

Yeah, Ukrainian politics are not our politics. What a surprise.

[mormont]

5 minutes ago, Gorn said:

At the moment, these guys are literally anti-fascists.

Sorry, but if you have two fascists fighting, you just have two fascists fighting (and hopefully soon one fewer). You don't get one turning into an anti-fascist by some kind of advanced maths.

 

[Gorn]

1 minute ago, mormont said:

Sorry, but if you have two fascists fighting, you just have two fascists fighting (and hopefully soon one fewer). You don't get one turning into an anti-fascist by some kind of advanced maths.

 

A fascist is someone who destroys other people's countries and kills civilians, not someone who has edgy tattoos.

[Lord of Oop North]

3 minutes ago, Gorn said:

A fascist is someone who destroys other people's countries and kills civilians, not someone who has edgy tattoos.

I suspect an edgy tattoo fascist also has interests including: dictatorship, contempt of democracy, suppression of the free press, ultra nationalism 101, pummeling of minorities, and long walks along the Black Sea.

[Gorn]

Just now, Lord of Oop North said:

I suspect an edgy tattoo fascist also has interests including: dictatorship, contempt of democracy, suppression of the free press, ultra nationalism 101, pummeling of minorities, and long walks along the Black Sea.

At the moment, one is harmless and the other is not.

[GrimTuesday]

Just now, Gorn said:

At the moment, these guys are literally anti-fascists.

I'm sorry, but no. Just because you are fighting a fascistic invasion does not make you not a fascist yourself. Beyond that, my critique is not of the man himself, but rather the fact that PBS brought a fucking Nazi on their highly trusted news program. I'm sure there are countless acts of heroism done on the Ukrainian side that they could have highlighted, and instead, they brought on a known neo-nazi.

1 minute ago, Ran said:

The guy is the mayor of the town and was featured prominently in footage out of Ukraine, both in negotiating with the Russians and then in informing the town that they needed to decide together whether to fight or not. That's his legitimacy as someone to talk to to discuss those specific events.

Yeah, Ukrainian politics are not our politics. What a surprise.

That is bullshit and you know it. This guy's politics are hardly even Ukraine's politics. Svobota go 2% in the most recent election, this is a fringe figure, who thanks to media coverage, is now going to be seen in a more positive light. We can't control what goes on in other nations media, but when American news sources get involved, given the global reach of their influence, there is a duty to not give people like this oxygen.

[Gorn]

I have a feeling that the white letter "Z" will soon have a meaning equivalent to that of a swastika.

[maarsen]

2 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

The UK Tory party is funded by oligarchs so they’re kindly giving plenty of time for them to move money. Also Russia probably has compromising info on Johnson.

I am wracking my brain trying to imagine new compromat that Putin has on Johnson. The readily available stuff is back enough and he is still in power.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

That is bullshit and you know it.

It  is not. They show the footage in the program, assuming you've watched it. He is the mayor. It doesn't matter if his politics are "fringe" or not, his politics were not so fringe in his town that he failed to be elected mayor, and it's because he's the mayor of this particular town that he's being spoken to.

2 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

This guy's politics are hardly even Ukraine's politics. Svobota go 2% in the most recent election, this is a fringe figure, who thanks to media coverage, is now going to be seen in a more positive light. We can't control what goes on in other nations media, but when American news sources get involved, given the global reach of their influence, there is a duty to not give people like this oxygen.

He is not advocating anything related to his politics. He's discussing current events he and his town are directly involved in. The footage and events are dramatic, with the Russian holding aloft grenades and his addressing the crowd afterwards are newsworthy.

No one in America is going to be electing the mayor to office in America.

[sologdin]

a fringe figure,

yes, and no. that party is fringe, but some of its ideas have greater currency.  for instance, i think ukraine is fucked up for banning communist symbols and for stripping the KPU and other left parties of the right to contest elections.  svoboda no doubt appreciates these policy preferences, which in themselves are indicia of fascism.  none of that warrants an invasion, of course; all of it must be addressed by the ukrainian left as an internal matter through the democratic process.

[DMC]

Here's the full 8 minute report, btw.  The reporter talks to a number of individuals involved in the resistance.  Regardless how you feel, I'll take that report over Chuck Todd asking his correspondent in Ukraine how the people there are reacting to Biden's SotU and the correspondent having to inform him that it's 6am in Lviv.

[Fez]

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

It  is not. They show the footage in the program, assuming you've watched it. He is the mayor. It doesn't matter if his politics are "fringe" or not, his politics were not so fringe in his town that he failed to be elected mayor, and it's because he's the mayor of this particular town that he's being spoken to.

He is not advocating anything related to his politics. He's discussing current events he and his town are directly involved in. The footage and events are dramatic, with the Russian holding aloft grenades and his addressing the crowd afterwards are newsworthy.

No one in America is going to be electing the mayor to office in America.

Also, united fronts are united fronts. You don't get exclude someone because you don't like their domestic politics. Then you aren't a united front anymore and you increase the chances of losing.