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Tyrion Lannister: Good or Bad, or Something in Between?


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8 hours ago, Darryk said:

When I first read the books (after season 2 of the show) I was very sympathetic to him because I had the much more likeable Peter Dinklage version in my head.

But on re-reads I've become more aware of how reprehensible at times. Like in book 5 where he says he wants to "rape and kill" his sister, and he bangs a prostitute who is described as being barely aware of what's going on.

He's clearly meant to be Richard III, but GRRM said in an interview that he liked Richard III, so who knows where Tyrion is going to end up. 

GRRM certainly does like Richard III; there's apparently no less than four characters based off of him: Ned Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Tyrion Lannister, and ... Theon Greyjoy. Ned and Stannis are for the more historical aspects and Tyrion and Theon for the theatrical interpretation that Shakespeare popularized, Tyrion for his rhetoric, Theon for his crimes and his nickname, "Rick/Dick" (as Richard is described in Henry VI Part III) being close to "Reek".

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On 3/10/2022 at 12:15 PM, Angel Eyes said:

GRRM certainly does like Richard III; there's apparently no less than four characters based off of him: Ned Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Tyrion Lannister, and ... Theon Greyjoy. Ned and Stannis are for the more historical aspects and Tyrion and Theon for the theatrical interpretation that Shakespeare popularized, Tyrion for his rhetoric, Theon for his crimes and his nickname, "Rick/Dick" (as Richard is described in Henry VI Part III) being close to "Reek".

You read Factinate too?

Edited by Canon Claude
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Tyrion - the guy everybody loves to hate, or hates to love. 

Yeah, he is definitely somewhere in between. I think the people that see him as evil think that his bad deeds wash out the good. The ones that white wash him think the good washes out the bad but neither is true. Tyrion is a very layered character. It's easy for us to say we would never, or we would do this or that, but until confronted with the situation we don't really know. Tyrion has proven to be bitter, dark, murderous, vengeful & also kind, forgiving, understanding, generous & loyal. I think he is an amazing character but certainly not good or bad. 

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On 3/7/2022 at 12:30 PM, EggBlue said:

he was more of a good guy in book one but he is getting darker each book. I'd like to mention that his train of thoughts as he was manipulating Aegon was interesting, considering he had not yet decided what his own agenda is (he hadn't even if he wants to live yet!)  and was merely playing with him: " There, that’s made him good and angry " 

 

He was bitter about life and wanted to get back at Cersei. Refresh my memory, but the manipulation took place shortly after Aegon’s outburst during the cyvasse. 

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  • 2 months later...

Tyrion Lannister is good but he's not so valiant or courageous. He is a necessary cunning mind. You can't be foolish and heroic. You can't be fully honorable or rigid. You have to be willing to aid everyone to actually run the country, both the rich and the poor, and you need to be cunning enough to be cunning in finding and removing your enemies in battle and in court. He wasn't easily swayed for his decency and did trick others to test their loyalty to secure his place

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I think the scene where the direwolves attack Tyrion at Winterfell provides some insight into Tyrion's role in the story. 

Summer growls first. And Summer is the smartest. It reflects the subtleness of the hints in these early chapters that Tyrion is ultimately a villain, because he's spreading nihilism. But Summer is also the first one to be called off and obey it. So it shows a recognition in Bran and Summer that if I show you the best of me that maximizes the chance that the best in you will emerge. It means Tyrion can be pulled back from villainy at the last moment. But it's clear so far that for most of the story he's on the fence between loving or hating existence itself, and sliding toward the hate side as the story goes on.

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On 3/10/2022 at 12:15 PM, Angel Eyes said:

GRRM certainly does like Richard III; there's apparently no less than four characters based off of him: Ned Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Tyrion Lannister, and ... Theon Greyjoy. Ned and Stannis are for the more historical aspects and Tyrion and Theon for the theatrical interpretation that Shakespeare popularized, Tyrion for his rhetoric, Theon for his crimes and his nickname, "Rick/Dick" (as Richard is described in Henry VI Part III) being close to "Reek".

Ned’s also got Richard, Duke of York and Stannis also has King John and additionally Renly has some Richard III too.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Tyrion has always been in between, even at his nicest he was still helping his father and cruel nephew into installing and keeping in power an illegitimate puppet regime and had people killed by Bronn to cover up his affair with Shae. 

Right now and in the future he'll most likely balance very closely to bad, only possibly stopping from entirely crossing the line upon realizing the consequences of his actions and thirst for vengeance will have for all of Westeros and above all for the members of his family he still loves and care for, and/or realizing that his actions are increasingly similar to his father's.

Edited by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9
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On 3/9/2022 at 9:31 PM, Hrulj said:

Tywin didn't rape her. He paid her to be a prostitute. We never hear of her refusing money. Or Tyrion saying she fought back and resisted. 

It brought about absolutely no benefit. Dornish didn't fight for them before or after Myrcella was sent. Having her as a hostage only encouraged them to be further disloyal. 

The trick merely killed people. It didn't delay anything. City was set to fall all the same without Tywin and Mace coming along to pull Tyrion out of the fire.

Its explicitly on Tyrion. Head - Pikes - Walls. Tyrion knew Littlefinger set him up for Bran's murder attempt and got the war started. Does nothing. He comes with Tywin's full authority - wastes it. His sister is irrelevant and powerless as long as he has backing of his father. He does nothing with it. 

And? Fucking whores in secret isn't something Tywin opposed from Tyrion. Tyrion made a reputation for himself troughout the seven kingdoms as lecherous imp. That's the problem. The bringing whore over is a problem because Tywin already knows. 

Yeah he played it great. Then cried when people came forward acusing him of murder. Guess what, I tell someone I'll kill them, they wind up dead - I'm the prime suspect. Tywin never makes threats. He should've ignored cersei. Especially since the entire threat of Cersei was precipitated on Tyrion trying to protect Shae from her. 

Should I care about Chataya? Should hand of the king and future lord of Westerlands care about a prostitute?

What lesson did he learn from Tyrion save to inflict violence and threats of it on those that displease you?

His father would've had a plan that goes with it. Tyrion just sends people over and awards them Paramouncies like candy. 

 

1. Yes. That was a great deed that cemented the rule of his house and cowed his vassals into respecting them after decades of ineptitude and weakness. 

2. Yes. She was a mistress who donned a dead ladies jewelry and ordered people about. She got what was comming to her and should've counter herself lucky he didn't murder her outright. 

3. Wife and rape are questionable. Jaime may as well have lied to make Tyrion feel better. Tyrion never mentions any resistance. 

4. Tyrion should've known his place. 

5. Who sees his own kids having a good relationship and thinks to himself - yep, they're fucking for sure. 

6. Awww poor Cersei's little heart. Tywin aimed high. His only mistake was trying to tie himself to the Dragons out of some mistaken loyalty to a former friend gone mad. 

7. Heavily implied mad king forced himself on her. 

8. What friend?

9. He did what was best. Everyone is a kid once. Viserys and Daenarys survived and they didn't settle down on a homestead finding true love and growing flowers. They prepared to return and in the end did their best to raise an army to attack. Personally I'd have castrated Aegon and had Rhaenys married to the royal heir but killing them was a decent choice as well. 

10. Sucks to be her. That woman's brother was offended by a fart, murdered mean by poison in honor duels after cuckolding them and being caught doing it. 

11. Should've kept his word Rob. Sucks how Frey's are prickly. Red Wedding was a stroke of genius. Ended war, Frey's are pissed upon even more. All with no further Lannister dead. 

12. Do I care?

 

Blackwater explicitly is his worst moment. It failed.

Martells joining Starks or Baratheons? Starks are far, Baratheons blamed for Elia all the same. One of which is dead at that point and another is a fire obsessed lunatic. She could've gotten the Vale trough Littlefinger pressure and further planning. Instead she's disfigured in Dorne. 

What did Dornish "Alliance" bring from that point to the last books? 

 

And Stannis would be besieged by the biggest army in the land, and subsequently extinguished. Instead he kept the king in the city to be captured. 

She didn't at the start she wouldn't at the end when Starks are being beaten at every corner. 

1.  Drowning non-combatants, including children.  Truly a mark of greatness.

2.  Parading a woman naked through the streets is vile.

3.  They were married by a Septon.  That was gang rape.

4.  More rape apologism from you.

7.  Hardly Joanna’s fault.

8.  Elia was her friend.

9.  More child murder apologism from you.

10.  More rape apologism from you.

You’re revealing a very nasty side to yourself.

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6 hours ago, SeanF said:

1.  Drowning non-combatants, including children.  Truly a mark of greatness.

2.  Parading a woman naked through the streets is vile.

3.  They were married by a Septon.  That was gang rape.

4.  More rape apologism from you.

7.  Hardly Joanna’s fault.

8.  Elia was her friend.

9.  More child murder apologism from you.

10.  More rape apologism from you.

You’re revealing a very nasty side to yourself.

1. There are no non-combatants. All there are members of a household or sworn to serve it and followed them into rebellion. Fact no one rebelled afterwards against him is a show of what a great decision that had been.

2. Shouldn't have stollen and humiliated his dead mother and ordered people above her station around. Parading a woman naked is a common westerosi punishment for scandalous behavior. 

3. Doesn't matter to me. Both her and Tyrion should know better

4. It's part of life, not 21st century. 

9. So? Ned spared children and led tens if not hundreds of thousands to death. Even today I'd happily pull the train switch onto one kid to save hundreds of thousands of people from same train.

10. Don't care

So? It's a side that exists in the world today nevermind centuries ago. 

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9 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

1. There are no non-combatants. All there are members of a household or sworn to serve it and followed them into rebellion. Fact no one rebelled afterwards against him is a show of what a great decision that had been.

2. Shouldn't have stollen and humiliated his dead mother and ordered people above her station around. Parading a woman naked is a common westerosi punishment for scandalous behavior. 

3. Doesn't matter to me. Both her and Tyrion should know better

4. It's part of life, not 21st century. 

9. So? Ned spared children and led tens if not hundreds of thousands to death. Even today I'd happily pull the train switch onto one kid to save hundreds of thousands of people from same train.

10. Don't care

So? It's a side that exists in the world today nevermind centuries ago. 

You were born out of your place and time.  You should have served in the SS.

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On 7/25/2022 at 9:18 AM, SeanF said:

You were born out of your place and time.  You should have served in the SS.

You should come up with more inovative insults. Let’s now find a way to make a serial rapist and sexual abuser into a protagonist because he doesn’t remind us of our dad 

Edited by Hrulj
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I think Tyrion is best summarized not as Good, Bad, or even Inbetween but in shades of them.

Tyrion thinks of himself as a schemer and villain to an extent that it amuses him but he's far-far less monstrous than his father and sister. It's one of the things he and Jaime share that they both think of themselves as dishonorable rogues in a broken system. Jaime being significantly worse at it and having given into his worse impulses due to internalizing all of the hatred the Seven Kingdoms feels for him.

However, Tyrion has STANDARDS and that causes him to be nicer and kinder to people who don't. By the end, though, his deformation and horrible betrayals by his families (including Jaime) are enough that he FUCKING SNAPS. He's completely evil and broken for much of his journey through Essos but Penny starts pulling him back from the darkness. Ironically, she's doing so by making him think about life beyond being a Lannister.

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On 6/26/2022 at 6:14 PM, TheLastWolf said:

Ugly

Good - to a fault -Ned (not even grey like The man with no name)

Bad- Cersei Tywin Euron Roose lotta others - (Angel eyes equivalent, not the forum member lol)

Ugly - Tyrion (Tuco smiles, damn I luv Eli Wallach!)

 

I knew I should've elaborated then...

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On 3/9/2022 at 10:53 AM, EggBlue said:

if not for his trick , Stannis would have taken the city before Tywin and Reach could save anyone. 

What are you basing this on? It was Tyrion's chain that caused the bridge of ships which allowed Stannis to land. And Cersei came up with the wildfire idea. 

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