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The missing Northmen


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On 3/9/2022 at 2:01 PM, Canon Claude said:

If we’re going to talk about missing Northmen, there are so many worthier examples to discuss. We know that most - if not all - of the 3500 Northerners (and Rivermen) are dead.

I’m still curious about the missing 600 men commanded by Kyle Condon and Ronnel Stout. And what about the Karstark horsemen combing the Riverlands looking for Jaime? What became of the expedition sent by Robb into the Neck? Did nobody survive Duskendale or the Ruby Ford?

 

On 3/9/2022 at 2:28 PM, Mark O'Kane said:

The 600 men from the Rills were probably defeated by the Freys after the Red Wedding when the Freys sent men to defeat Seaguard and bring them to bay.

 

It really is strange how there never seem to be any survivors of the battles fought against the Northmen in ASOS. More than three thousand men marched with Hellman Tallhart and Robett Glover to Duskendale. A thousand of those men were killed, but we have no idea what happened to the rest. How many were captured? How many have turned to banditry? Or did they get killed off later?

We get a better idea of what happened to the Northmen at the fords, but there's still many possible survivors to account for. All of them gone?

As for Condon and Stout, I seem to recall that Ser Gregor apparently took back the Fords at some point, so we can assume they went down fighting? But again, no mention of survivors, even though the numbers of men killed in any army are often very small before they break and retreat.

In an ideal world, they'd regroup somewhere, maybe join the Brotherhood Without Banners? But I doubt GRRM will ever get around to addressing what happened to them.

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19 hours ago, James Steller said:

 

It really is strange how there never seem to be any survivors of the battles fought against the Northmen in ASOS. More than three thousand men marched with Hellman Tallhart and Robett Glover to Duskendale. A thousand of those men were killed, but we have no idea what happened to the rest. How many were captured? How many have turned to banditry? Or did they get killed off later?

We get a better idea of what happened to the Northmen at the fords, but there's still many possible survivors to account for. All of them gone?

As for Condon and Stout, I seem to recall that Ser Gregor apparently took back the Fords at some point, so we can assume they went down fighting? But again, no mention of survivors, even though the numbers of men killed in any army are often very small before they break and retreat.

In an ideal world, they'd regroup somewhere, maybe join the Brotherhood Without Banners? But I doubt GRRM will ever get around to addressing what happened to them.

Duskendale actually has an answer. The retreating Northerners are caught by Gregor Clegane on the retreat and shattered. Some dead, some possibly captured and the rest scattered into the woods and countryside being hunted by Gregor's men. Whatever small number limb back to Harrenhall with news of the fighting are insignificant.

Condon and Stout we can assume possibly elected to accept Roose Bolton as Warden of the North and rejoined his army as it made it's way north. Jonelle Cerwyn who was brought south with her father presumably was still with her men and Condon at the fords. Also the Stouts host Ramsey and Roose Bolton which he might not do if he'd suffered recent losses of both men and a family member of unknown relation like Barbrey Dustin does when she bars Ramsey from They probably all end up back in the North having accepted Roose Bolton as warden of the North at least for a while. It's one of those things which is more implied than outright stated and I might still be wrong.

There are probably roaming North men in the riverlands. Some of broken men who are surviving either by banditry and trying to live off the land by any means necessary as they try to make their way home. Some might have joined up with both halves of the brotherhood without banners or other bandit groups. Soem amy be dead having turned to banditry and been killed by the locals or killed by the locals who thought they'd turned to banditry. At least some of the Karstark men have this fate as when Arya visits Stoney Sept some of them are prisoners in cages for their acts and dying.

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Gregor attacks Roose's host as they try to cross the Trident, and Roose leaves Ronnel and Kyle to hold the northern shore:

Quote

ASOS Catelyn VI

"I delayed too long before leaving Harrenhal. Aenys Frey departed several days before me and crossed the Trident at the ruby ford, though not without difficulty. But by the time we came up the river was a torrent. I had no choice but to ferry my men across in small boats, of which we had too few. Two-thirds of my strength was on the north side when the Lannisters attacked those still waiting to cross. Norrey, Locke, and Burley men chiefly, with Ser Wylis Manderly and his White Harbor knights as rear guard. I was on the wrong side of the Trident, powerless to help them. Ser Wylis rallied our men as best he could, but Gregor Clegane attacked with heavy horse and drove them into the river. As many drowned as were cut down. More fled, and the rest were taken captive."

Gregor Clegane was always ill news, Catelyn reflected. Would Robb need to march south again to deal with him? Or was the Mountain coming here? "Is Clegane across the river, then?"

"No." Bolton's voice was soft, but certain. "I left six hundred men at the ford. Spearmen from the rills, the mountains, and the White Knife, a hundred Hornwood longbows, some freeriders and hedge knights, and a strong force of Stout and Cerwyn men to stiffen them. Ronnel Stout and Ser Kyle Condon have the command. Ser Kyle was the late Lord Cerwyn's right hand, as I'm sure you know; my lady. Lions swim no better than wolves. So long as the river runs high, Ser Gregor will not cross."

Gregor crosses the Trident after the Red Wedding:

Quote

ASOS Tyrion VIII

But who would be mad enough to contest Joffrey's rule now, after what had befallen Stannis Baratheon and Robb Stark? There was still fighting in the riverlands, but everywhere the coils were tightening. Ser Gregor Clegane had crossed the Trident and seized the ruby ford, then captured Harrenhal almost effortlessly.

Jaime meets northern captives at Harrenhal while traveling toward Riverrun:

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AFFC Jaime III

The other captives had been better treated. Ser Wylis Manderly was amongst them, along with several other highborn northmen taken prisoner by the Mountain That Rides in the fighting at the fords of the Trident. Useful hostages, all worth a goodly ransom. They were ragged, filthy, and shaggy to a man, and some had fresh bruises, cracked teeth, and missing fingers, but their wounds had been washed and bandaged, and none of them had gone hungry.

Maybe these captives only include men taken during Gregor's attack on the Trident prior to the Red Wedding (since only Wylis is named), or maybe they include some of Ronnel and Kyle's men (if that force tried to hold the river against Gregor after the Red Wedding).

Regarding the Twins:

Quote

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1284

When armies are described as destroyed, does that mean they are annihilated or are they mostly dispersed? GRRM commented that when an army is destroyed lots of things happen to the men. They become outlaws, they go home, they find new homes, they become mercs, they join other households, they become"broken men" ( I took this to mean wanderers and semi-outlaws). GRRM also mentioned that certain battles were much more brutal than others. The battle at the Freys was very bloddy, while the battle in front of Winterfel was not.

 

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On 3/9/2022 at 2:01 PM, Canon Claude said:

I’m still curious about the missing 600 men commanded by Kyle Condon and Ronnel Stout. And what about the Karstark horsemen combing the Riverlands looking for Jaime? What became of the expedition sent by Robb into the Neck? Did nobody survive Duskendale or the Ruby Ford?

Kyle Condon might actually pop up in TWoW. ASoS appendix has him as having entered the serving of one Wylis Manderly. So whatever the Manderlys are up to, I think that he will be part of it. We don't know what Ronnel is to Harwood Stout who is presently at Winterfell, but I don't think we can eliminate that he has entered in contact with his kin if he is still alive.

About the survivors of Duskendale, Robett Glover comes to mind. He was taken prisoner, then exchanged for Martyn Lannister. He was at White Harbor. Harrion Karstark also survived, but is prisoner at Maidenpool, and maybe even Randyll Tarly's prisoner. 

On 3/12/2022 at 11:45 AM, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Actually, Lyra, Jorelle, and Lyanna are at Bear Island, while Maege is officially MIA, having been sent with Robbett Glover by Robb to be found by Howland Reed.

Lyra and Jory are not on Bear Island. Maege took them with her when she left the north with Robb's host.

Catelyn wondered if Lady Maege had reached the Neck as yet. She had taken her other daughters with her, but as one of Robb's battle companions Dacey had chosen to remain by his side. (Catelyn VII, ASoS)

Alysane is telling it to Asha exactly like it is. Lyra and Jory are probably in the Neck with their mother and Galbard Glover.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose
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9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Kyle Condon might actually pop up in TWoW. ASoS appendix has him as having entered the serving of one Wylis Manderly. So whatever the Manderlys are up to, I think that he will be part of it.

I feel like that's more of a blooper akin to the confusion around House Swann and House Estermont.

Edited by James Steller
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The 600 men with Kyle Condon and Ronnel Stout most likely surrendered to Roose Bolton and came back North with him, it also neatly explains why Roose Goes from 3500 men to 4000 between the red Wedding and coming up the causeway to the North

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VI

His queer colorless eyes studied her face a moment before he answered. "Some five hundred horse and three thousand foot, my lady. Dreadfort men, in chief, and some from Karhold. With the loyalty of the Karstarks so doubtful now, I thought it best to keep them close. I regret there are not more."

This would all be men loyal to Roose and they number 3500

A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

The northmen followed hard behind the van, their tattered banners streaming in the wind. Reek watched them pass. Most were afoot, and there were so few of them. He remembered the great host that marched south with Young Wolf, beneath the direwolf of Winterfell. Twenty thousand swords and spears had gone off to war with Robb, or near enough to make no matter, but only two in ten were coming back, and most of those were Dreadfort men.

2 in 10 out of 20000 is 4000 so where did the 500 extra men come from?

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VI

"I left six hundred men at the ford. Spearmen from the rills, the mountains, and the White Knife, a hundred Hornwood longbows, some freeriders and hedge knights, and a strong force of Stout and Cerwyn men to stiffen them. Ronnel Stout and Ser Kyle Condon have the command. Ser Kyle was the late Lord Cerwyn's right hand, as I'm sure you know; my lady.

the 600 under Kyle and Ronnel would explain this growth in number, also Ronnel Stout would be sworn to House Dustin and they join Roose Bolton shortly after the red wedding, and so does House Ryswell who are Lords of the rills where some of the spearmen come from. The Hornwood bowmen would also be told of Ramsay having become there Lord and likely not have heard of what he did to Lady Hornwood until they had come back North. That leaves the Cerwyn men but Lord Cerwyn and his son are dead and Lord Cerwyn made the mistake of bringing his daughter with him when went South with Robb Stark so Lady Jonnele Cerwyn now ruling Lady is captured at the Red Wedding  wich would force Kyle Condon and the Cerwyn men he commands to surrender.

In short the 600 Northmen most likely surrendered and became part of Roose Bolton's army.

 

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56 minutes ago, direpupy said:

The 600 men with Kyle Condon and Ronnel Stout most likely surrendered to Roose Bolton and came back North with him, it also neatly explains why Roose Goes from 3500 men to 4000 between the red Wedding and coming up the causeway to the North

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VI

His queer colorless eyes studied her face a moment before he answered. "Some five hundred horse and three thousand foot, my lady. Dreadfort men, in chief, and some from Karhold. With the loyalty of the Karstarks so doubtful now, I thought it best to keep them close. I regret there are not more."

This would all be men loyal to Roose and they number 3500

A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

The northmen followed hard behind the van, their tattered banners streaming in the wind. Reek watched them pass. Most were afoot, and there were so few of them. He remembered the great host that marched south with Young Wolf, beneath the direwolf of Winterfell. Twenty thousand swords and spears had gone off to war with Robb, or near enough to make no matter, but only two in ten were coming back, and most of those were Dreadfort men.

2 in 10 out of 20000 is 4000 so where did the 500 extra men come from?

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VI

"I left six hundred men at the ford. Spearmen from the rills, the mountains, and the White Knife, a hundred Hornwood longbows, some freeriders and hedge knights, and a strong force of Stout and Cerwyn men to stiffen them. Ronnel Stout and Ser Kyle Condon have the command. Ser Kyle was the late Lord Cerwyn's right hand, as I'm sure you know; my lady.

the 600 under Kyle and Ronnel would explain this growth in number, also Ronnel Stout would be sworn to House Dustin and they join Roose Bolton shortly after the red wedding, and so does House Ryswell who are Lords of the rills where some of the spearmen come from. The Hornwood bowmen would also be told of Ramsay having become there Lord and likely not have heard of what he did to Lady Hornwood until they had come back North. That leaves the Cerwyn men but Lord Cerwyn and his son are dead and Lord Cerwyn made the mistake of bringing his daughter with him when went South with Robb Stark so Lady Jonnele Cerwyn now ruling Lady is captured at the Red Wedding  wich would force Kyle Condon and the Cerwyn men he commands to surrender.

In short the 600 Northmen most likely surrendered and became part of Roose Bolton's army.

 

That does explain where Jonelle Cerwyn has been and how she survived the expedition North without any apparent damage to herself.

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