GRRM Updates Fans on Multiple Projects

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Not that I recall, or it was a mixture of that and then the Village Hero switcheroo came up later on.

"I did originally plan on including [She-Wolves] in DANGEROUS WOMEN, the crossgenre anthology Gardner and I put out last year, but the book was past due and the story was not finished, so I substituted an abridged version of "The Princess and the Queen" instead".

https://grrm.livejournal.com/365715.html

For what it's worth.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

That was half the fun. My personal favorite example of this was how Rhaena comes off in the World Book and "Sons of the Dragon" vs. what she's revealed as in Fire & Blood. In the abbreviated works she seems like just another one of Martin's sad widows, but then you get the curveball and she turns out to be (in my opinion) one of the coolest and most interesting characters in all of F&B. 

Well, Rhaena was really a nice surprise. But there was very little wait between TSotD - where we saw her for the first time in detail - and FaB. Not to mention that she was greatly elaborated on in the Jaehaerys material which was written later.

I went on record and said that Rhaena Targaryen is arguably George's most complex female character so far. She is more layered than all the others, those in the main series included.

I meant more how people developed ideas about Nettles and Daemon (most people think the romance thing is confirmed when the picture Gyldayn paints of the thing is much more dubious), Alys Rivers' importance, or Alicent's true character on the basis of just the novellas and TWoIaF - and that's not nearly enough for that.

Gyldayn/George's final judgment of Alicent has her revealed as a gold digger who apparently never loved her husband - or at least loved him so little that she talked all the time about Jaehaerys I on her deathbed, never mentioning the guy she was married to for 23 years. Not to mention the questionable decision of Ran/Linda/George to not mention Alicent's death in TWoIaF. If Ran hadn't talked about that here we would have been forced to wait for FaB to learn that she was imprisoned and died of the Winter Fever.

3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

TPATQ was published before The Rogue Prince, right? So were people confused when Rhaenyra’s sons were referred to as bastards? And no one had any way of knowing why Criston Cole hated Rhaenyra so much at that point, right?

Yes, that was part of the problem. We also had no clue about the Great Council and who the hell the Baelon fellow was who was referenced in the text.

TRP came out in the same year as TWoIaF, I think. And of course Ran and Linda did a good job focusing on the non-TPatQ material in their account on the Dance, thus giving the readers of both a much better view of the Dance than we would have had if there had been just TWoIaF and eventually FaB.

But it was still a bad way to publish all that.

11 minutes ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

That's cool to hear. Would have expected it re: Aegon IV considering Martin said he could write a whole novel about him. Neat that there would be that much material about Aerys II. I'm guessing some of that overlaps with the expanded Westerlands material from the World Book?

My take on a very big FaB II stretching only to the Great Spring Sickness always included the idea that George would include his idea of an Unworthy novel by making Aegon's secret autobiography one of Gyldayn's most illustrious sources for the later reign of Aegon III up to Aegon IV's own later reign. The guy is described as witty and smart, so his commentary on the court of the various kings could be even more entertaining than Mushroom's member.

11 minutes ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

* Unwin Peake still scheming in the Reach.

In light of what Unwin pulled I think a big part of the continued story will cover how Aegon and Viserys got their revenge. They are Targaryens, after all, and that guy tried to manipulate and kill them - and he killed a Targaryen queen and tried to murder another. They cannot let that stand.

Aegon III may not be the vengeful type, but Viserys certainly could be.

Also, one would imagine that Unwin might be stupid or desperate enough to work with one of those fake Daerons.

11 minutes ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

* Whatever the fuck is going on with Alys Rivers in Harrenhal

That is one of the most interesting dangling plotlines, something that might be directly linked to the death of the last dragons. At least those who were not crippled or deformed. If Alys' son does have a dragon already - or if he claims Silverwing or the Cannibal in the future - then there could be another conflict like the one between Maegor and Aegon the Uncrowned. If Alys and Aemond were married then the die-hard Greens should make the case that her boy was the rightful king, the heir of the eldest male branch. Due to Alys' background we can expect such people not to marshal as much support as Aegon II could during the Dance ... but certainly enough for another short civil war.

Not to mention, I think, that with two riderless big dragons out there there is a chance that Viserys or Baela might claim a dragon of their own in addition to Alys' son.

11 minutes ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

* The deaths of the final dragons (I'm especially interested to see what becomes of Morning and what the realm finally does about Silverwing).

Both could die in battle. Silverwing should be claimed by someone. The regents didn't kill her, so now she is there, right for the taking. There could be all sorts of reasons why nobody does claim her, of course, but it would be pretty odd if neither Viserys nor Baela tried.

If they are not claimed then somebody else would have to kill her and the Cannibal - and that would seem odd in light of what the dragons actually are to the Targaryens. Aegon III might turn a blind eye, of course, but his siblings would not.

[The Dragon Demands]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I really hope we won't get the silly 'historical novellas' thing we had with the FaB material. The fact that it took us years to actually read the complete material in order caused many people to develop queer notions and interpretations about the characters and events in the historical framework and that's entirely due to the fact that the readership got only bits and pieces of the full story.

I'd prefer it, if that didn't happen with any of the new material.

The rival theories are half the fun

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

The rival theories are half the fun

To a point ... but I seemed to noticed that quite a few people didn't even bother getting the full picture by reading through all of FaB.

I get it that people do have pre-conceived notions and pet ideas years and years after they got their first impressions of certain characters/events, but the full picture deepened the whole experience to no small degree. And it is kind of odd that this didn't have a larger impact.

I thought everybody would celebrate Rhaena as a character. But very few people actually did.

[Padraig]

6 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

It's been obvious for a while now that GRRM resents that his legacy is so tied to the ASoIaF books, and that he gets much more enjoyment out of editing Wild Cards and writing fake histories and working in TV. 

I appreciate your frustration but are you actually suggesting that he doesn't want to tie his legacy to aSoIaF books, and in respone, he spends his time writing aSoIaF related books and working on aSoIaF related TV shows. Ok.

He possibly was disappointed with the ending of GoT, so he feels he needs to be more involved in the next TV shows.  Fair enough if people don't agree with this choice but I can understand his logic at least.

[$erPounce]

On 3/9/2022 at 9:25 PM, Ran said:

It's early days yet to talk about it, but it does recapitulate the basic idea of an encyclopedia-like guide to characters. The key difference, I think, would be it would have a lot of new artwork specifically created for it, whereas the app reused art assets from other projects.

If I may ask another question about the Who's Who book, who is most in charge of this project? Are you two the lead authors or George?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

12 minutes ago, Padraig said:

He possibly was disappointed with the ending of GoT, so he feels he needs to be more involved in the next TV shows.  Fair enough if people don't agree with this choice but I can understand his logic at least.

Yes, his logic is understandable to a degree, but his decision ultimately implies that he now considers Westeros TV projects to be more important than the main story, which is disappointing.

[Caligula_K3]

2 hours ago, Padraig said:

I appreciate your frustration but are you actually suggesting that he doesn't want to tie his legacy to aSoIaF books, and in respone, he spends his time writing aSoIaF related books and working on aSoIaF related TV shows. Ok.

He possibly was disappointed with the ending of GoT, so he feels he needs to be more involved in the next TV shows.  Fair enough if people don't agree with this choice but I can understand his logic at least.

What I meant is that he doesn't want his legacy tied to the actual ASoIaF series, and that's what he struggles to work on. He is deeply in love with his Westeros world and random worldbuilding, and has no problems with writing fake histories or producing TV shows. But that's not the same thing as wrapping up the complex web of characters and plotlines of the actual series. 

Edit: it's also why I think GRRM would have been of little help in wrapping up Game of Thrones. He's been stuck on Act 2 of this story for over twenty years and has taken over ten years to write one installment. That doesn't suggest to me he would have been able to take Game of Thrones from season 6 to 8 in three years.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Caligula_K3

[Black of Hair and Heart]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

To a point ... but I seemed to noticed that quite a few people didn't even bother getting the full picture by reading through all of FaB.

I get it that people do have pre-conceived notions and pet ideas years and years after they got their first impressions of certain characters/events, but the full picture deepened the whole experience to no small degree. And it is kind of odd that this didn't have a larger impact.

I thought everybody would celebrate Rhaena as a character. But very few people actually did.

I feel like you're profoundly overestimating the number of people who read the world-building volumes of the fantasy series they like. 

And anyway, varying interpretations is most of the fun of fake history. You don't learn real history in a straight line from beginning to end. You learn bits and pieces and have to put the puzzle together as you go. That's a big part of what Martin's doing here. Why do you think we know Dunk and Egg die at Summerhall but still need a series of novellas to tell us why. It's not just crossing the eyes and dotting the tees on a Wiki. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I’m hoping that the DnE show will inspire GRRM to start churning out more of their stories, but there’s a small, horrified part of me that’s worried that the same thing that happened with GOT will happen again here. 

Real talk, how much do you think the backlash to GOT’s ending messed with George’s head?

[SFDanny]

On 3/9/2022 at 10:05 AM, Ran said:

It is not, in any way shape or form, something that anyone who has already read F&B needs unless they are a completist or they want to see the art, which will includes some maps and other interesting things.

 

As an aspiring completist of all things Elio and Linda, and of course that Martin fellow, I'm in. I loved Fire & Blood and will happily buy this new book for the artwork alone even if there is nothing else new.

[Ran]

7 hours ago, $erPounce said:

If I may ask another question about the Who's Who book, who is most in charge of this project? Are you two the lead authors or George?

Oh, us. You may have noticed that George also credits Raya -- that's because she was the primary contact on this book, and the next. To be clear, the idea behind these books from the publisher in part is that they require very minimal involvement from George. This is not TWoIaF, where we knew all along George would have some level of participation.

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

As an aspiring completist of all things Elio and Linda, and of course that Martin fellow, I'm in. I loved Fire & Blood and will happily buy this new book for the artwork alone even if there is nothing else new.

That is very kind!

Edited March 14, 2022 by Ran

[Padraig]

10 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

What I meant is that he doesn't want his legacy tied to the actual ASoIaF series, and that's what he struggles to work on. He is deeply in love with his Westeros world and random worldbuilding, and has no problems with writing fake histories or producing TV shows. But that's not the same thing as wrapping up the complex web of characters and plotlines of the actual series. 

Sorry. That still doesn't make sense.

I don't think anyone is going to argue about whether he is struggling to write tWoW.  But all those other things are tied intrinsically to the series.  GRRM is not going to be encouarging people to read the fake histories and the D&E stuff but skip aSoIaF.

ASoIaF is clearly his legacy.  I think people have this idea that GRRM has a quota of creativity every year and is wasting it on other outlets.   But creativity doesn't work that way for him.  Mainly because  aSoIaF is so complex now.  Would people really be happier if we got nothing since aDwD because he isn't allowed to do anything but tWoW?  Because I really don't think we would be guaranteed tWoW in that world.

12 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yes, his logic is understandable to a degree, but his decision ultimately implies that he now considers Westeros TV projects to be more important than the main story, which is disappointing.

Same as above.  Its not a binary thing.  I'm glad he is finding success with some things.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Padraig

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

17 minutes ago, Padraig said:

Would people really be happier if we got nothing since aDwD because he isn't allowed to do anything but tWoW?  Because I really don't think we would be guaranteed tWoW in that world.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that Winds would have been finished much sooner if he had fewer distractions. By his own admission, his most productive period on Winds was when he was forced to stay inside during the pandemic. And the earlier books were written when he was much less known and in-demand, and thus had much less on his plate.

[zionius]

15 hours ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

That was half the fun. My personal favorite example of this was how Rhaena comes off in the World Book and "Sons of the Dragon" vs. what she's revealed as in Fire & Blood. In the abbreviated works she seems like just another one of Martin's sad widows, but then you get the curveball and she turns out to be (in my opinion) one of the coolest and most interesting characters in all of F&B. 

Rhaena materials are not deleted from the world book/TSotD. GRRM apparently had better concept of her in c.2017-8.

Edited March 14, 2022 by zionius

[Black of Hair and Heart]

2 hours ago, zionius said:

Rhaena materials are not deleted from the world book/TSotD. GRRM apparently had better concept of her in c.2017-8.

Ah, right, I had forgotten that was the case. Whether it was by original design or Martin's gardening, it still made for a cool reveal. 

[Padraig]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that Winds would have been finished much sooner if he had fewer distractions. By his own admission, his most productive period on Winds was when he was forced to stay inside during the pandemic. And the earlier books were written when he was much less known and in-demand, and thus had much less on his plate.

I think that's too simplistic.  He had issues writing aSoIaF well before the TV show after all.  If time was the only issue, then he probably would be finished by now.

And it doesn't sound like he'd say something like "in my 11 years of writing tWoW, my most productive period was 2020".  I could be wrong I suppose.  But more likely he said that he had a comparatively good year in 2020 (versus 2021).  But still way worse than the late 90s.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

I feel like you're profoundly overestimating the number of people who read the world-building volumes of the fantasy series they like. 

Not really, I meant the online community of the folks I discuss things with, not the people who barely read the series as such.

11 hours ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

And anyway, varying interpretations is most of the fun of fake history. You don't learn real history in a straight line from beginning to end. You learn bits and pieces and have to put the puzzle together as you go. That's a big part of what Martin's doing here. Why do you think we know Dunk and Egg die at Summerhall but still need a series of novellas to tell us why. It's not just crossing the eyes and dotting the tees on a Wiki. 

This isn't real history, nor is FaB a collection of shorter novellas which were eventually collected in a single book - like the three Dunk & Egg novellas. The history up to Jaehaerys I and from Viserys I to the end of the Regency was mostly finished during the writing process of TWoIaF.

Now, a publication of complete chapters from that material in novella form could have been great. I'd never argue against that. I also do enjoy each Dunk & Egg novella on its own - I don't need to wait for a book collecting a couple of novellas.

But instead TPatQ was a heavily edited accout, which, through omissions, changed the meaning of the work to no small degree. I refer to the complete erasure of the conflicting sources material and the decision to go with one (seemingly canonical) version of a historical event, rather than giving the entire spectrum of conflicting versions. The most important such event, I think, is the death of Lyman Beesbury which is just given in the 'cut throat version' in TPatQ.

I mean, consider the irony - the biggest and most famous of the historical novels is called 'The Princess and the Queen', yet it does not reveal or reference the ultimate fate of the queen in the title. Rhaenyra's story sort of ended with her death (although her cause survived and the war continued in her name) but Alicent's did not. That was either not a good idea for a title (in fact, it would have been a much more fitting title for a novella about the reign of Viserys I when Rhaenyra was the princess and Alicent the queen - during the Dance Rhaenyra and Helaena are queens, and Alicent is just a dowager queen, i.e. a former queen) or folks made terrible editing choices.

TRP was more complete but there were changes and omissions there as well. And while TSotD was complete ... it was a mess will of errors, so a letdown for a different reason.

1 hour ago, zionius said:

Rhaena materials are not deleted from the world book/TSotD. GRRM apparently had better concept of her in c.2017-8.

He elaborated on her backstory during the revision of TSotD and turned her into a lesbian - in the original version there was no Elissa Farman and it was implied that she was in love with Androw Farman (who wasn't conceived as a complete loser in the original version, either).

But while Rhaena is a great character, it is still somewhat of a letdown that Aerea was literally burned for a little horror episode (although the context provided very interesting worldbuilding background) and Rhaella literally disappeared. George to create one big and three-dimensional Targaryen woman in addition to Alysanne where there could have been three.

[Black of Hair and Heart]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not really, I meant the online community of the folks I discuss things with, not the people who barely read the series as such.

This isn't real history, nor is FaB a collection of shorter novellas which were eventually collected in a single book - like the three Dunk & Egg novellas. The history up to Jaehaerys I and from Viserys I to the end of the Regency was mostly finished during the writing process of TWoIaF.

Now, a publication of complete chapters from that material in novella form could have been great. I'd never argue against that. I also do enjoy each Dunk & Egg novella on its own - I don't need to wait for a book collecting a couple of novellas.

But instead TPatQ was a heavily edited accout, which, through omissions, changed the meaning of the work to no small degree. I refer to the complete erasure of the conflicting sources material and the decision to go with one (seemingly canonical) version of a historical event, rather than giving the entire spectrum of conflicting versions. The most important such event, I think, is the death of Lyman Beesbury which is just given in the 'cut throat version' in TPatQ.

I mean, consider the irony - the biggest and most famous of the historical novels is called 'The Princess and the Queen', yet it does not reveal or reference the ultimate fate of the queen in the title. Rhaenyra's story sort of ended with her death (although her cause survived and the war continued in her name) but Alicent's did not. That was either not a good idea for a title (in fact, it would have been a much more fitting title for a novella about the reign of Viserys I when Rhaenyra was the princess and Alicent the queen - during the Dance Rhaenyra and Helaena are queens, and Alicent is just a dowager queen, i.e. a former queen) or folks made terrible editing choices.

TRP was more complete but there were changes and omissions there as well. And while TSotD was complete ... it was a mess will of errors, so a letdown for a different reason.

He elaborated on her backstory during the revision of TSotD and turned her into a lesbian - in the original version there was no Elissa Farman and it was implied that she was in love with Androw Farman (who wasn't conceived as a complete loser in the original version, either).

But while Rhaena is a great character, it is still somewhat of a letdown that Aerea was literally burned for a little horror episode (although the context provided very interesting worldbuilding background) and Rhaella literally disappeared. George to create one big and three-dimensional Targaryen woman in addition to Alysanne where there could have been three.

Yeah, the history novellas don't really fly as in-universe accounts, but it doesn't really matter since they got superceded by F&B anyway. It's not like we ever have to go back and read them again. For me, they fall more into the same category as preview chapters from the main novels. I'd rather have them than not. 

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

Yeah, the history novellas don't really fly as in-universe accounts, but it doesn't really matter since they got superceded by F&B anyway. It's not like we ever have to go back and read them again. For me, they fall more into the same category as preview chapters from the main novels. I'd rather have them than not. 

Sure, that is exactly how they should be viewed - as earlier and incomplete versions of the full tale that got superseded by FaB.