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GRRM Updates Fans on Multiple Projects


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21 minutes ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

I kind of just think that's how...time works? And people's interest? Like, Breaking Bad was hugely popular during its 2008-2013 run, and people broadly liked the ending. But would you rather have been selling Breaking Bad merch in 2012 during the run up to the finale, or in late 2013 after it was over and all anyone was talking about was the Red Wedding?

Tens of millions of dollars in marketing, press tours by the actors and creators, people speculating on what's going to happen; all of this drives "popularity" or whatever you want to call it, and all of it goes away once a show is over, whether people liked the ending or not. 

Star Wars is an anomaly (or used to be, before they started cranking out new content monthly under Disney) in that it's a once-in-a-lifetime property in terms of popularity. And even that was more or less fashioned by Lucas himself to sell merch, to say nothing of it now being part of the all consuming Disney empire. You can't really use that as a metric for something like this. 

I suppose so, but it was such a sudden drop in pop culture relevance that it was jarring. Part of being a fan nowadays is listening to podcasts, watching YouTube videos,  doing rewatches on social media, etc., and the climate for GOT has been overwhelmingly negative in that regard. To use Star Wars as an example again, it’s kind of like how The Last Jedi did well commercially, but you can’t talk about it anywhere online without it getting ripped to shreds. So while I agree that it’s still popular among casual viewers, a big part of what made it a phenomenon is gone.

I think this conversation on r/naath (a pro-GOT subreddit) kind of sums up what I’m trying to get at:

 

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Just now, The Young Maester said:

God can’t believe anyone actually liked that shit show of a season.

Like even if you remove the massive book inaccuracies, the last season was abysmal for a tv shows standards. 

For what it's worth, John Campea said that each season was better than the last, and season 8 was the best of the bunch. I'm sure there are others who agree with him. 

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I will say this: I miss the huge, lively Facebook fandom for GOT that peaked around season 5 and was all but dead by season 8. Part of that was because by then there was a big FB backlash, but part of it was because it was driven largely by book fans who became disillusioned. It was fun while it lasted.

If there’s one thing about HOTD that I’m excited for, it’s that it will undoubtedly inspire more fanart. 

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32 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

it’s kind of like how The Last Jedi did well commercially, but you can’t talk about it anywhere online without it getting ripped to shreds. So while I agree that it’s still popular among casual viewers, a big part of what made it a phenomenon is gone.

I think this conversation on r/naath (a pro-GOT subreddit) kind of sums up what I’m trying to get at:

I mean, people are going to be dicks on the internet. That's true of everything. Things like The Last Jedi or Game of Thrones are going to be flashpoints precisely because they're so popular. I dunno. As somone who likes the show a lot more than I imagine most people here do, I sympathize with that reddit user you quoted, but I also think there's plenty of places to talk about GoT without getting pilloried for it, not to mention insightful, non-negative writing about the ending. 

 

15 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

For what it's worth, John Campea said that each season was better than the last, and season 8 was the best of the bunch. I'm sure there are others who agree with him. 

Sean T. Collins and Gretchen Felker-Martin are two writers I like who have written beautifully (and positively) about the 8th season and the show in general. I always recommend them if people are ever looking for "dissenting" opinions regarding the show and the ending. 

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13 minutes ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

I mean, people are going to be dicks on the internet. That's true of everything. Things like The Last Jedi or Game of Thrones are going to be flashpoints precisely because they're so popular.

Some people have a hard time accepting that others may have different opinions. Personally, I absolutely loathe The Last Jedi, and would even go as far as calling it cultural vandalism, but I would never judge someone for liking it. Same goes for season 8.

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1 hour ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

I mean, people are going to be dicks on the internet. That's true of everything. Things like The Last Jedi or Game of Thrones are going to be flashpoints precisely because they're so popular. I dunno. As somone who likes the show a lot more than I imagine most people here do, I sympathize with that reddit user you quoted, but I also think there's plenty of places to talk about GoT without getting pilloried for it, not to mention insightful, non-negative writing about the ending. 

 

Sean T. Collins and Gretchen Felker-Martin are two writers I like who have written beautifully (and positively) about the 8th season and the show in general. I always recommend them if people are ever looking for "dissenting" opinions regarding the show and the ending. 

 Now I’m curious. Where are the places people who like GOT go to talk about the show?

I remember one woman who did a thread on why she loved Dany’s dark turn, but I can’t remember her name. I have it saved on my computer somewhere.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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4 hours ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

The ending of the show was broadly considered a disappointment, but the idea that the show isn't still wildly popular only really exists within the bubble of this site, the subreddit and other places where die-hard book fans congregate. The show is still enormously popular. That's why they're making half a dozen spinoffs. 

I think if it was still wildly popular, the show runners would be doing victory laps, and they would have been kept on for Star Wars.

I’m sure it’s more popular, in general, than it is on this site, but I also think that there were a lot of people greatly pissed off by the last two seasons.  Rotten Tomatoes’ rating for Season 8 is grim.

I think some of the criticism is exaggerated, but that’s in response to earlier exaggerated praise.

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From a commercial viewpoint the GoT brand is definitely alive and kicking but that's not the same as there being hugely successful successor shows.

The fact that they scrapped one show already doesn't bode all that well, and I, personally, am not sure that a Targaryen civil war with another arrogant madwoman at the center will is going to draw as many people in as GoT did.

ASoIaF is a really great novel series with lots and lots of interesting characters, dialogue, and twists. The Dance material has essentially no details from George aside from a couple of lines and the story has no climax at all and ends on weird whimper.

To make HoD a success the writers of the show have to do the really heavy lifting. They have to create great characters, a great plot (or at least present George's outline in a tantalizing manner) and make the audience care about the conflict.

I'd be surprised if that really worked.

The show can still be a decent success, but I'd be surprised if it was even remotely as successful as GoT.

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Are there any spin-offs that have been as big or bigger than the original? I imagine this show is going to be hugely expensive, but HBO must think that they’ll make their money back if they greenlit the show.

Assuming they follow a standard five-season plan, this show will probably be on for a solid decade, since I doubt they’ll release the seasons on a yearly basis. Too much technical work. 

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Are there any spin-offs that have been as big or bigger than the original?

Xena way over Hercules even early in its run. Fraiser tppped the ratings just as Cheers did, and it's not "bigger" purely because it came later as the viewing landscape became increasingly fragmented. NCIS over JAGHappy Days was way bigger than Love, American Style

I'm sure there are others. That said, there are a lot more spinoffs that are forgettable compared to their originals than there are those that achieved parity or surpassed their sources.

Edited by Ran
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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The fact that they scrapped one show already doesn't bode all that well, and I, personally, am not sure that a Targaryen civil war with another arrogant madwoman at the center will is going to draw as many people in as GoT did.

ASoIaF is a really great novel series with lots and lots of interesting characters, dialogue, and twists. The Dance material has essentially no details from George aside from a couple of lines and the story has no climax at all and ends on weird whimper.

To make HoD a success the writers of the show have to do the really heavy lifting.

As others have pointed out, HBO's big takeaway from GoT seems to be that people liked dragons and political intrigue, and HotD has both of those. 

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14 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think if it was still wildly popular, the show runners would be doing victory laps, and they would have been kept on for Star Wars.

I mean, Disney pulled all future Star Wars movies after they fucked up the sequel trilogy. Rian Johnson's further Star Wars movies got canceled as well. Feels like Disney is going to be keeping Star Wars out of the theaters for the foreseeable future. But I guess I don't really know what "victory laps" showrunners take after successful shows beyond making more shows.

 

14 hours ago, SeanF said:

 Rotten Tomatoes’ rating for Season 8 is grim.

I'm sure it is. Rotten Tomatoes isn't really a great indicator of quality for anything though, especially given the dismal state of television criticism. 

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Much like I’m interested in discussing what’s holding Winds up and how GOT imploded, I’m interested in speculating on how the spin offs will do too, although we won’t know anything for sure until HOTD premieres.

On a personal level, it is interesting how I was looking forward to HOTD coming out, but now I feel a lot less enthusiastic. I don’t think it was George’s blog update that did it, but it could have been. Book fans were a lot more upset than I expected them to be, although I certainly don’t blame them.
 

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I don't have much expectations for the spin-off shows. In the last few years, GRRM tried to flesh out as much stories  as he could. This work took Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, and so many other writers decades to create. And GRRM is spreading himself too thin working on NINE shows and WINDS, F&B II, & D&E. I love GRRM, but I don't think he can do all of those well. I wouldn't be surprised if only HOTD survives. 

On the other hand, I have a very high hopes for the WILDCARDS show. The writers have a rich universe with fully completed story arcs. 

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1 hour ago, GuestRights said:

I don't have much expectations for the spin-off shows. In the last few years, GRRM tried to flesh out as much stories  as he could. This work took Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, and so many other writers decades to create. And GRRM is spreading himself too thin working on NINE shows and WINDS, F&B II, & D&E. I love GRRM, but I don't think he can do all of those well. I wouldn't be surprised if only HOTD survives. 

Of course I want GRRM to focus more on Winds, but at the end of the day the market decides. If there is an audience for these shows, then he is right and I'm wrong.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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5 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

As others have pointed out, HBO's big takeaway from GoT seems to be that people liked dragons and political intrigue, and HotD has both of those. 

But that's not what made GoT the phenomenon it was. It was the story, the characters, and the plot twists.

We already know the story of the Dance - and it has no Ned Stark execution, no Mother of Dragons twist, no King in the North moment, no cynical dwarf with great lines, no Red Wedding, etc.

Like with the books ... the dragons in GoT were interesting because they were first extinct and then there were three miracle hatchlings and the audience wanted to see what they would do when they were larger (which the book readers are still doing ;-)).

The Dance doesn't even have intriguing child characters playing great roles - Baela and Rhaena are no Sansa/Arya, and Rhaenyra's boys aren't Jon Snow, Robb Stark, or Bran. Criston Cole is no Jaime, Alicent Hightower is no Cersei, and Otto Hightower is most definitely not Tywin Lannister.

The Dance as such is also not particularly different as a story from the politicking of GoT. George didn't bother trying to make the story completely different. It may turn out that the audience want that kind of thing ... or not.

Insofar as the other successor shows are concerned ... if you have decent enough writing then the Corlys show or the Nymeria thing and the Yi Ti animated show could have some potential. But considering there is essentially nothing substantial from George on those stories one could expect little more than generic TV show fantasy series stuff ... nothing overly complex or subtle or suprising.

Especially the Corlys show has little actual potential for normal story-telling, being basically the story of a guy making nine journeys to the far ends of the world, meaning the core cast can reasonably only Corlys himself and his crew, with family members at home or folks based at places he visits repeatedly (Qarth, say, although I don't want to see the GoT Qarth ever again as I notice while writing this) as recurring or guest characters.

One could see some 'normal story arcs' there with Corlys picking up interesting or myserious characters (one such could be the love he allegedly lost at Asshai) or spending half a season or so at a specific place, but if you look at the whole thing then there isn't much potential there for a great success.

In fact, as an avid book reader one looks forward to that show mainly because one wants to see more about the world - although the Nymeria show will also deliver on that front, not to mention the Yi Ti show.

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I have little faith in writers being able to replicate the success of GOT. Even if grrm is working alongside them.

And its true the dance lacks everything that made GOT fun and interesting. But out of all the spin-off shows I think this one is the most likely to come somewhere closer to the success of its predecessor.

 

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Well, one thing that made GOT a huge hit was the timing. It was the only premium fantasy show at the time, and like that video over on the social climate thread said, it premiered right when grimdark antihero shows were at their peak. I don’t believe it would be as big today.
 

This is another reason why I think DnE could be a success. Aside from just being a good story, more earnest shows like Stranger Things, Ted Lasso, and Cobra Kai are big now. 

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