GRRM Updates Fans on Multiple Projects

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Even if GRRM is working alongside them.

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that. Personally, I can't even imagine sitting on one of the greatest fantasy sagas of all time and putting it aside to work on spinoffs and write lore for video games. But then again, I'm not a not a massively successful author.  

[Sotan]

8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

'm still trying to wrap my mind around that. Personally, I can't even imagine sitting on one of the greatest fantasy sagas of all time and putting it aside to work on spinoffs and write lore for video games. But then again, I'm not a not a massively successful author.  

Seems like he's facing some kind of fundamental writing problem, or he's bored with the main story. Either way it's a gut punch. In his blog, he seems almost giddy about HOTD and these other shows. Ryan Condal on a podcast said GRRM "helped him break in the pilot" and then they pitched it to HBO together. GRRM even admits he's heavily involved with the show. It seems like F&B and these shows has his interest/heart. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaehaerys II was cut from the 'show universe', at least the English iteration thereof.

They could still have him as Mad Aerys' elder brother and predecessor, I guess, but if they do not retcon established facts from GoT then Jaehaerys II wouldn't exist in a Dunk & Egg adaptation. And they most definitely would have to make both Aerys II and Rhaella Egg's children ... which can only further reflect badly on Dunk & Egg since they apparently raised one of the worst monsters in Westeros history and were unable to prevent his rise to the Iron Throne.

In the books Aerys is still pretty young when Egg dies ... and he is merely Jaehaerys' heir and Egg is not directly responsible to turn him into a good king.

In the end, both queens descend into what could be called madness. Rhaenyra because of the Nettles affair, and Alicent for her behavior during the Regency era (trying to force Jaehaera to murder Aegon III, tearing up her clothes).

The only way to make this story work is to make it a tragedy. That works for the reign of Viserys I ... but not so much for the Dance as such which has very little interaction between the different factions.

I do expect them to change Rhaenyra's death scene. If they keep her being eaten by a dragon, I expect Alicent to command this, not Aegon, so that the message isn't 'the rightful king executed the evil pretender' but rather one woman killed the other.

If Aegon is still responsible they change it to Rhaenyra being less impotent/passive in the scene, perhaps by having her return to Dragonstone coincide with Aegon's attack on the castle. It wouldn't surprise me if they even gave they turned the Moondancer vs. Sunfyre battle into Syrax vs. Sunfyre.

 

They were willing to retcon the Iron Throne itself, I don’t think they’ll have a problem retconning the family tree (just remember that Cersei had a Baratheon baby on the show that she forgot about after season one).

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I think DnE could be the type of show that pulls in new fans who don’t normally watch GOT. At the same time, the lack of spectacle would probably mean it will have a smaller audience.

Alicent and Rhaenyra both went mad from losing their children. I think viewers will find that sympathetic enough. Granted, in the promos we’ve seen of Alicent so far, she has this kind of crazed, neurotic look to her, so maybe they’ll try to have her be the “mad” one from the start.

Edited March 30, 2022 by The Bard of Banefort

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But that's not what made GoT the phenomenon it was. It was the story, the characters, and the plot twists.

We already know the story of the Dance - and it has no Ned Stark execution, no Mother of Dragons twist, no King in the North moment, no cynical dwarf with great lines, no Red Wedding, etc.

Like with the books ... the dragons in GoT were interesting because they were first extinct and then there were three miracle hatchlings and the audience wanted to see what they would do when they were larger.

I still think that dragons were the reason why they chose to adapt the Dance rather than, say, the Blackfyre Rebellion.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Yes that show was a bit too much on the sexual content part. I had a work colleague that hadnt watch the show nor read the books and he told me a friend said that a brother rapes his sister in a church. Lol what a way to scare people off.

I heard a rumour that one of the producers was the creep that loved to add these scenes.

Yes they definitely will tweak some things. One of the major ones is the whole Targaryen queen gone mad and killed off in an horrific way. Not to forget at the end she shows a mothers heart (people will see it as portraying a weak woman) when she tries to run and save her only child.

I have always said that I want both factions to be portrayed as evil. Especially in a way that it forces the tv viewer to choose between green or blacks. This path would legit make them more money and generate more viewership.

I know its hard to portray the greens as good guys or at-least support them on some way. But if D&D were able to whitewash Cersei and Tywin fucking Lannister, than im sure this new show can pull it off.

I've never viewed Rhaenyra as evil.  Tragic, yes, but not evil.  The Greens were fundamentally, in the wrong, because they resorted to violence immediately, in a rotten cause.  I don't view the Greens as having any redeeming features, whether you view them by in-universe standards, or modern standards.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The problem with Dunk & Egg is that Aegon V is, in the end, just another mad monarch and a failure. We know who brings the dragons back, so that part of his quest is a dead end ... as are his reforms, which are nowhere in sight when the council of mobsters and pimps takes over Westeros at the end of GoT.

And I'd also expect that the impression Dany and Jon made in the final seasons of GoT - that of madwoman and boring dude who didn't do anything important - shouldn't really make folks interested in the adventures of their (great-)great-granddad and his pet knight.

That said - anyone who actually read Dunk & Egg might be very interested in a faithful adaptation of the stories so far. They are pretty good, and especially THK has a very interesting twist in the end.

Honestly, I think the two D's ethical outlook is so warped that they thought it a good thing that the Seven Kingdoms should be ruled by people who viewed the Smallfolk as livestock at the end.  They saw Cersei, Tywin, Littlefinger as the people to emulate, Cersei/Jaime as the one true romance of the series, and killing for the sake of revenge and family advancement as awesome (but very dubious when done to liberate people from oppression).

Those are not the messages that I take from these books. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by SeanF

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

They were willing to retcon the Iron Throne itself, I don’t think they’ll have a problem retconning the family tree (just remember that Cersei had a Baratheon baby on the show that she forgot about after season one).

Of course, and I guess they would do that. I just wanted to point out that at this point we should not assume the 'show canon' includes a Jaehaerys II who was both the son of Aegon V and the father of Aerys II.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I think DnE could be the type of show that pulls in new fans who don’t normally watch GOT. At the same time, the lack of spectacle would probably mean it will have a smaller audience.

Well, until we have more novellas we cannot really guess how the later stories could be possibly adapted as a show since we don't even know yet how well Dunk & Egg work when Egg is, say, a quarrelsome prince at his father's court always second-guessing every decision King Maekar makes while Dunk does his best to try to be a proper knight and Kingsguard.

Not to mention how they work as king and closest confidant/adviser.

So far the charm of the novellas is that Dunk is a nobody hedge knight and Egg a prince in disguise.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Alicent and Rhaenyra both went mad from losing their children. I think viewers will find that sympathetic enough. Granted, in the promos we’ve seen of Alicent so far, she has this kind of crazed, neurotic look to her, so maybe they’ll try to have her be the “mad” one from the start.

The trouble with Alicent is that she and Otto are basically bad copies of Cersei and Tywin ... the only think they are lacking is the Lannister hubris. So far they thankfully seem to go with Otto/Alicent as Rhaenyra's best friends/allies at the beginning of Viserys I's reign - with Alicent being Rhaenyra's childhood friend and Otto her (inadvertent) ally since he wants to ensure Daemon doesn't succeed his brother.

That is a good start and it can create a different dynamic than the Stark-Lannister rivalry which is already an established thing in the beginning of GoT.

One would also beg the writers to flesh out Daemon's incompetence and ineffectiveness as an administrator or ruler so that Otto loathing the prospect of him running the kingdom isn't just some weird obsession on his part. The audience should relate to and identify with Otto and always role their eyes with Prince Daemon opens his mouth at the council table.

And as I repeatedly said when we discussed the first season of HotD - they have to keep their balls up in the air. Alicent and Rhaenyra should try to continue their friendship even after Rhaenyra is Heir Apparent and Alicent's sons are born ... until time and a series of disappointments and provocations and humiliations turn the friends into enemies. That's also where the schemers in the background should come in - Criston Cole, Lyonel and Harwin and Larys Strong, Daemon, the Velaryons, etc.

The audience should eventually realize that a big civil might be coming ... but who is going to be on whose side should be up in the air until the war actually begins. Think about Alicent and Rhaenyra trying to reach out to each other even after the war has begun, give Criston Cole serious doubts about his details and perhaps even failed attempts to return to Rhaenyra's side ... only to have Daemon sabotage such efforts.

23 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Those are not the messages that I take from these books. 

Of course not. But as you say - that's the message to be taken away from the show. And considering how pitifully the Targaryen dynasty dies in GoT the idea that what Dany's great-granddad tried and failed to do is something a huge audience is looking forward to isn't *that* likely.

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Of course not. But as you say - that's the message to be taken away from the show. And considering how pitifully the Targaryen dynasty dies in GoT the idea that what Dany's great-granddad tried and failed to do is something a huge audience is looking forward to isn't *that* likely.

I think that an understanding of ethics is one of the things that separates truly great stories, like The Godfather, Breaking Bad, or The Sopranos from those that are ultimately forgettable.  You don’t have to be a Christian to appreciate the truth that it profits a man or woman nothing to gain the the entire world, if he or she loses their soul in the process.

So if George finishes the series with Sansa becoming treacherous and duplicitous, and scheming to win a crown, this will not be a cause for rejoicing, as in the show, but rather, a tragic moral downfall.  Likewise, if Arya becomes a sadistic killer who loves playing with her food, this will most certainly not be a matter for rejoicing, as the two D’s would have us believe, but instead, a horrific ending for her character.

 

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

I personally headcanon Alicent as having black hair and gray eyes, mainly because it would pit JRRT's beauty standards against GRRM's and I find that funny.

While the Greens are written as being less nuanced and competent the fact most of the Blacks are also horrible people makes me think its more of a "plague on both your houses" on GRRM's part.

I hope they don't make Alicent or Rhaenyra neurotic, especially because their children die. Its plain sexist, not to mention a waste of a character, how women in Westeros always seem to lose their grip on sanity or isolate themselves (Rhaenyra, Helaena, and even Alicent by the very end in F & B, Lysa, Alannys, and to a lesser extent Catelyn as well as Cersei in ASOIAF) when they lose a kid while the men get to rage and act on their feelings (Daemon and Aegon II).

Furthermore, I actually like how Alicent is essentially an older Margaery in Cersei's position as queen dowager and stepmother to someone she despises. Furthermore, it speaks in her favor that she's pretty much the ONLY person to try to make peace throughout the war. Her first terms, which Glydayn understandably labels "generous", guarantees Rhaenyra, Jace, Luke and their descendants financial independence from the Iron Throne (the fact it was considered "an article of faith" among the Greeens that the Velaryon boys were bastards makes it a big deal that they'd be willing to accept them as trueborn to avoid conflict), Aegon and Viserys places at court as well as opportunities for future advancement (albeit with the caveat that they'd also be unofficial hostages), and grants amnesty to ALL of the Blacks while the best Rhaenyra can bother offering in response is "surrender and I'll spare my half-siblings lives". No mention of amnesty for the rest of the Greens, no guarantee of a place at court for the Hightower-Targs, etc.
Later, Alicent offers to call a GC when KL falls and, around First Tumbleton I believe, she even offers to split Westeros in half between Aegon II and Rhaenyra (which would make for a fascinating what-if in my opinion). Say what you will about the merits of each individual proposal but at least Alicent tries to come up with a solution. Rhaenyra's response is always "total surrender or nothing". (The fact she was only willing to send terms to the Lannisters, Hightowers, etc. AFTER all her half-brothers were dead and even then only at Corlys' urging in response to Daemon's inane suggestions, which would necessitate the death of thousands, considering Daeron was in the field with an army and the Ironborn plaguing the coast of the Westerlands, speaks to her desire to pile up the casualties.)

As for Rhaenys, I really hope they give her something to actually do. Glydayn describes her as having lived "fearlessly" and that Meleys was "no stranger to battle" but where are the details? Did she take part in Daemon's Stepstones campaign for example? This is where GRRM's unequal focus in F & B (the first ten years of Jaehaerys I's reign as opposed to the other forty-five to give one example) as well as his refusal to go back and expand The Heirs of the Dragon + The Dying of the Dragons the way he did The Sons of the Dragon really diminishes the material and, conversely, gives the show an opportunity to elevate what exists rather than worry whether or not it can live up to said material as was the case with AGOT.

Edited March 31, 2022 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

I personally headcanon Alicent as having black hair and gray eyes, mainly because it would pit JRRT's beauty standards against GRRM's and I find that funny.

While the Greens are written as being less nuanced and competent the fact most of the Blacks are also horrible people makes me think its more of a "plague on both your houses" on GRRM's part.

I hope they don't make Alicent or Rhaenyra neurotic, especially because their children die. Its plain sexist, not to mention a waste of a character, how women in Westeros always seem to lose their grip on sanity or isolate themselves (Rhaenyra, Helaena, and even Alicent by the very end in F & B, Lysa, Alannys, and to a lesser extent Catelyn as well as Cersei in ASOIAF) when they lose a kid while the men get to rage and act on their feelings (Daemon and Aegon II).

Furthermore, I actually like how Alicent is essentially an older Margaery in Cersei's position as queen dowager and stepmother to someone she despises. Furthermore, it speaks in her favor that she's pretty much the ONLY person to try to make peace throughout the war. Her first terms, which Glydayn understandably labels "generous", guarantees Rhaenyra, Jace, Luke and their descendants financial independence from the Iron Throne (the fact it was considered "an article of faith" among the Greeens that the Velaryon boys were bastards makes it a big deal that they'd be willing to accept them as trueborn to avoid conflict), Aegon and Viserys places at court as well as opportunities for future advancement (albeit with the caveat that they'd also be unofficial hostages), and grants amnesty to ALL of the Blacks while the best Rhaenyra can bother offering in response is "surrender and I'll spare my half-siblings lives". No mention of amnesty for the rest of the Greens, no guarantee of a place at court for the Hightower-Targs, etc.
Later, Alicent offers to call a GC when KL falls and, around First Tumbleton I believe, she even offers to split Westeros in half between Aegon II and Rhaenyra (which would make for a fascinating what-if in my opinion). Say what you will about the merits of each individual proposal but at least Alicent tries to come up with a solution. Rhaenyra's response is always "total surrender or nothing". (The fact she was only willing to send terms to the Lannisters, Hightowers, etc. AFTER all her half-brothers were dead and even then only at Corlys' urging in response to Daemon's inane suggestions, which would necessitate the death of thousands, considering Daeron was in the field with an army and the Ironborn plaguing the coast of the Westerlands, speaks to her desire to pile up the casualties.)

As for Rhaenys, I really hope they give her something to actually do. Glydayn describes her as having lived "fearlessly" and that Meleys was "no stranger to battle" but where are the details? Did she take part in Daemon's Stepstones campaign for example? This is where GRRM's unequal focus in F & B (the first ten years of Jaehaerys I's reign as opposed to the other forty-five to give one example) as well as his refusal to go back and expand The Heirs of the Dragon + The Dying of the Dragons the way he did The Sons of the Dragon really diminishes the material and, conversely, gives the show an opportunity to elevate what exists rather than worry whether or not it can live up to said material.

The offer that the Greens made to Rhaenyra was insulting, given that their cause was worthless, and they immediately resorted to murder upon Viserys’ death.

Nor do I think that Rhaenyra and her children would have been allowed to live, had she been foolish enough to accept it.  They would have been over mighty subjects, who had to be eliminated.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@SeanF

I put in "say what you will about the merits of each individual proposal" precisely because people will disagree on that point. (I, for one, do but to be fair I also lean towards the Greens.) What doesn't change is the fact that what was offered in that proposal was more than Rhaenyra was ever willing to offer in response, which speaks in Alicent's favor and not in Rhaenyra's.

Edited March 31, 2022 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[SeanF]

33 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@SeanF

I put in "say what you will about the merits of each individual proposal" precisely because people will disagree on that point. (I, for one, do but to be fair I also lean towards the Greens.) What doesn't change is the fact that what was offered in that proposal was more than Rhaenyra was ever willing to offer in response, which speaks in Alicent's favor and not in Rhaenyra's.

Without going further into the merits of the Greens' cause, King Aegon III would be one bad harvest, or one unpopular decision, away from people saying that there were other Targaryens with better claims to the Iron Throne (no one could question the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's children by Daemon).  Her children would be in a similar position to the De La Poles under Henry VIII. 

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Without going further into the merits of the Greens' cause, King Aegon III would be one bad harvest, or one unpopular decision, away from people saying that there were other Targaryens with better claims to the Iron Throne (no one could question the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's children by Daemon).  Her children would be in a similar position to the De La Poles under Henry VIII. 

The converse is also true though. (That is, under Rhaenyra, the Greens would be the De La Poles to her Henry VIII.) Later kings got around this to an extent by simply not remarrying, however unrealistic that is in and of itself.

[The Bard of Banefort]

This is why I think the smartest thing Viserys could have done was betroth Jace to Helaena. They were close in age, and I think Alicent may have been placated by knowing that, at the very least, her grandson would sit the Iron Throne. He could have even tied up the loose ends by betrothing Baela and Rhaena to two of his sons.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I’m going to add Jace and Helaena to my Greatest Couples That Never Were list, right beside Sansa/Dunk and Robb/Asha.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

18 hours ago, Sotan said:

GRRM even admits he's heavily involved with the show. It seems like F&B and these shows has his interest/heart. 

I'm thinking, if GoT was a moderate success, (S1/S2/Westworld-level) maybe we would have had Winds by now. I know it's not a given, but still.

Eh, what could have been... 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think that an understanding of ethics is one of the things that separates truly great stories, like The Godfather, Breaking Bad, or The Sopranos from those that are ultimately forgettable.  You don’t have to be a Christian to appreciate the truth that it profits a man or woman nothing to gain the the entire world, if he or she loses their soul in the process.

So if George finishes the series with Sansa becoming treacherous and duplicitous, and scheming to win a crown, this will not be a cause for rejoicing, as in the show, but rather, a tragic moral downfall.  Likewise, if Arya becomes a sadistic killer who loves playing with her food, this will most certainly not be a matter for rejoicing, as the two D’s would have us believe, but instead, a horrific ending for her character.

Yes, in GoT the message to take away is that cruelty and duplicity win the day.

And that's arguably actually part of the message to take away from the Dance setting. Aegon II triumphs over Rhaenyra because he is crueler and more ruthless than she ever was, poison and treachery win the day when Aegon II is murdered in turn, and the only hope to survive the travesty that's Aegon III's regency government is to turn a blind eye to the outside world and pretend you don't care about anything that's happening.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

I personally headcanon Alicent as having black hair and gray eyes, mainly because it would pit JRRT's beauty standards against GRRM's and I find that funny.

That strikes as pretty unlikely, considering the fact that all of Alicent's descendants seem to have had distinct Valyrian looks and that Jaehaerys I apparently mistook Alicent for Saera in old age. Alicent may not have had Valyrian looks herself, but with that in mind it makes more sense to assume she was fair-haired or blonde than dark-haired or black-haired.

6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Furthermore, I actually like how Alicent is essentially an older Margaery in Cersei's position as queen dowager and stepmother to someone she despises. Furthermore, it speaks in her favor that she's pretty much the ONLY person to try to make peace throughout the war. Her first terms, which Glydayn understandably labels "generous", guarantees Rhaenyra, Jace, Luke and their descendants financial independence from the Iron Throne (the fact it was considered "an article of faith" among the Greeens that the Velaryon boys were bastards makes it a big deal that they'd be willing to accept them as trueborn to avoid conflict), Aegon and Viserys places at court as well as opportunities for future advancement (albeit with the caveat that they'd also be unofficial hostages), and grants amnesty to ALL of the Blacks while the best Rhaenyra can bother offering in response is "surrender and I'll spare my half-siblings lives". No mention of amnesty for the rest of the Greens, no guarantee of a place at court for the Hightower-Targs, etc.

Later, Alicent offers to call a GC when KL falls and, around First Tumbleton I believe, she even offers to split Westeros in half between Aegon II and Rhaenyra (which would make for a fascinating what-if in my opinion). Say what you will about the merits of each individual proposal but at least Alicent tries to come up with a solution. Rhaenyra's response is always "total surrender or nothing". (The fact she was only willing to send terms to the Lannisters, Hightowers, etc. AFTER all her half-brothers were dead and even then only at Corlys' urging in response to Daemon's inane suggestions, which would necessitate the death of thousands, considering Daeron was in the field with an army and the Ironborn plaguing the coast of the Westerlands, speaks to her desire to pile up the casualties.)

I don't think one should play that up too much. Aegon II gives Rhaenyra his original terms, they are not Alicent's terms but terms made by Aegon's government, i.e. the Green Council. And those terms are the terms of a thief and usurper, very much the same kind of terms Cersei and later Tyrion tried to give to Robb Stark. They mean nothing, and are essentially just a means to confuse and distract and, perhaps, secure some hostages or even lure the enemy into a trap. We don't hear Rhaenyra and her people discuss the terms behind the scenes, but just as Cat told Robb he cannot go to KL to do homage to Joffrey because he wouldn't be allowed to leave, one could assume that Rhaenyra suspected or knew that if she and Daemon ever did homage to Aegon II they might not be allowed to leave, either.

The later terms were only made to save or secure what was already theirs by non-military means. Once the coup failed, Alicent had the idea to try a peaceful council. Once the war seemed to be lost, Alicent tried to keep at least the lands who had declared for Aegon II ... without first consulting with the lords of those lands whether they were okay with such a split nor trying explain how exactly such realms could even work economically.

Rhaenyra also offers peace at her coronation and later after her dragonriding half-brothers are dealt with - and that's actually a wise course of action since there is literally no chance that they would stop to be a danger to her while they still controlled those dragons. It may have been smart to offer separate terms to the Lannisters and the Baratheons who weren't directly in league with any of the dragonriders, but offering peace to Aemond or Daeron while they still had dragons and armies would have been a grievous mistake.

4 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

The converse is also true though. (That is, under Rhaenyra, the Greens would be the De La Poles to her Henry VIII.) Later kings got around this to an extent by simply not remarrying, however unrealistic that is in and of itself.

Nobody is like the De La Poles in this context since neither Rhaenyra or Aegon II had as bad a legal claim as Henry VII.

[SeanF]

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, in GoT the message to take away is that cruelty and duplicity win the day.

And that's arguably actually part of the message to take away from the Dance setting. Aegon II triumphs over Rhaenyra because he is crueler and more ruthless than she ever was, poison and treachery win the day when Aegon II is murdered in turn, and the only hope to survive the travesty that's Aegon III's regency government is to turn a blind eye to the outside world and pretend you don't care about anything that's happening.

That strikes as pretty unlikely, considering the fact that all of Alicent's descendants seem to have had distinct Valyrian looks and that Jaehaerys I apparently mistook Alicent for Saera in old age. Alicent may not have had Valyrian looks herself, but with that in mind it makes more sense to assume she was fair-haired or blonde than dark-haired or black-haired.

I don't think one should play that up too much. Aegon II gives Rhaenyra his original terms, they are not Alicent's terms but terms made by Aegon's government, i.e. the Green Council. And those terms are the terms of a thief and usurper, very much the same kind of terms Cersei and later Tyrion tried to give to Robb Stark. They mean nothing, and are essentially just a means to confuse and distract and, perhaps, secure some hostages or even lure the enemy into a trap. We don't hear Rhaenyra and her people discuss the terms behind the scenes, but just as Cat told Robb he cannot go to KL to do homage to Joffrey because he wouldn't be allowed to leave, one could assume that Rhaenyra suspected or knew that if she and Daemon ever did homage to Aegon II they might not be allowed to leave, either.

The later terms were only made to save or secure what was already theirs by non-military means. Once the coup failed, Alicent had the idea to try a peaceful council. Once the war seemed to be lost, Alicent tried to keep at least the lands who had declared for Aegon II ... without first consulting with the lords of those lands whether they were okay with such a split nor trying explain how exactly such realms could even work economically.

Rhaenyra also offers peace at her coronation and later after her dragonriding half-brothers are dealt with - and that's actually a wise course of action since there is literally no chance that they would stop to be a danger to her while they still controlled those dragons. It may have been smart to offer separate terms to the Lannisters and the Baratheons who weren't directly in league with any of the dragonriders, but offering peace to Aemond or Daeron while they still had dragons and armies would have been a grievous mistake.

Nobody is like the De La Poles in this context since neither Rhaenyra or Aegon II had as bad a legal claim as Henry VII.

I’ve never taken the view that the Blacks and Greens are as bad as each other.

One has to consider both ius ad bellum, as well as ius in bello.  

The just cause lies entirely with Rhaenyra. But, both sides commit atrocities.  

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I’ve never taken the view that the Blacks and Greens are as bad as each other.

Of course, it is pretty clear that the Blacks are 'the good guys' in-universe. I just wanted to say that what ASoIaF is about is more the kind of moral tale you described as being good stuff which was turned into a travesty, message-wise, by GoT.

Whereas I'd say that the Dance setting doesn't have the same kind of moral message as ASoIaF, being basically little more than a historical outline about a succession war based on the English Anarchy. If the show runners of HotD decided to turn Alicent and Aegon II into tragic heroes because their ruthlessness and cruelty turns them into the last guys standing (and Larys and Corlys are presented as despicable traitors for murdering Aegon II) then this wouldn't be as much a travesty as GoT was thanks to the portrayal of Sansa, Arya, Dany, Jon, Cersei, etc.

17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

One has to consider both ius ad bellum, as well as ius in bello.  

The just cause lies entirely with Rhaenyra. But, both sides commit atrocities.  

As things stand, the Blacks are mostly reactive and strike back. Whatever ugly things they do are reactions to attacks by the Greens. It actually surprised me how George has the Greens be the first in pretty much everything. They first imprison and fire people, they first murder people, they first target the royal family, they first execute people because they are loyal to the other side, etc. Rhaenyra mostly strikes back, and is suprisingly lenient when doing so, as her treatment of Alicent and Helaena shows. Not to mention her not turning Storm's End into another Harrenhal.

One can perhaps the fighting in the Riverlands be seen as an aggression started by Daemon and the Black Riverlords ... but that, in turn, was just a reaction to the Greens stealing the Iron Throne, the Red Keep, and KL from Rhaenyra during the coup.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Nobody is like the De La Poles in this context since neither Rhaenyra or Aegon II had as bad a legal claim as Henry VII.

And, whilst I dislike discussing the Abomination, this is entirely relevant to Jon and Daenerys in the show.  The notion that Daenerys, having claimed the throne and put up 90% of the manpower, should then agree to stand down in favour of Jon, is nonsense on stilts.  It’s medieval/early modern politics 101 that she’d be sentencing herself to death if she did such a thing.  

The two D’s seem to have been utterly ignorant of politics, history, war, anything really.