Advice - Protecting other people's kids

[Maithanet]

Hello Board,

I have a personal issue I wanted to ask you about.  My wife's sister (A) has two kids (the older is 6) with her ex-husband, (X).  Their marriage didn't work out for a lot of reasons, but probably most of all because she came out as a lesbian.  The family was supportive of her coming out (many of us were not surprised).  A has started dating K, and is very into her because it is her first relationship with a woman and that is fulfilling needs that were never met in her previous relationships.  However, K is abusive.  Over the past year she has isolated A away from her family and friends, she lies constantly, she has almost assuredly been cheating with a man, and she has been physically violent with A.  A has left her at least three times, but she always goes back.  Last week K choked A and left a mark on her neck, so A left and took pictures.  But this week A is already making excuses for K's behavior ("I was egging her on!") and it's pretty clear that she is going to move back in with K.  As far as we know, K (or her kids who are middle school aged) have not been physically violent with A's two kids, but she does make fun of them and we know that they are afraid of her. 

So the question is, given all we know, should we contact X and tell him everything we know (and share the pictures of A's neck showing the abuse)?  A and X have shared custody and X has remarried.  Because to us, this situation is sounds dangerous for A's kids, and we want to protect them.  Telling X would almost assuredly destroy our relationship with A, and quite possibly A's relationship with her mother as well, who is basically's A's last connection to her family.  And we don't know if X would actually get full custody, he doesn't have much money for hiring a lawyer and that isn't exactly a quick process.  In the short term at least, it is quite possible that things would get worse for A's two kids as they'll have to be around A and K for weeks/months as this resolves, and that's on the assumption that X would win full custody, which is no certainty.  K is the kind of scumbag that could very realistically take her displeasure out on A or her kids (or even X). 

I want to help those kids, but I am worried that trying to help is only going to make things worse, which is why I'm unsure what to do. 
Thoughts?

[lessthanluke]

If I was X I'd be furious if my kids were living in an abusive household and I wasn't told about it.

[polishgenius]

You need to tell him yes. First, I'd you do it might get worse but if you don't it will. And permanently. And second, the father has a right to know.

Ultimately if you don't tell him, and something worse happens... how will you feel? You don't wanna be part-responsible for that.

[baxus]

At this point it should not be about "how will A react?" or "what are the possible legal and financial consequences?", it should about one thing and one thing only and that's "what's best for those kids?"

I'm no expert but it seems to me that it's in their best interest to remove them from potentially dangerous environment. It's not possible to know for sure what happens after that. It might cause additional conflicts, but it might be a wake-up call it sounds A needs. You can't know for sure, but you can know that it's better for kids to be with one parent in a peaceful and loving environment than with the other parent in a chaotic and possibly violent environment. It's not as if kids would go into foster care system or anything like that.

[mormont]

I realise (and it's good) that K hasn't done anything to the kids yet. But sadly IMO the chances are that she will. In these situations, the abuser usually likes crossing boundaries. It shows that they have power over the abused person. So they move from verbal abuse to physical abuse: and they will move from abusing A herself, to abusing her kids to demonstrate power over her. 

I do think the kids' father should know but I appreciate that there's a difference between saying that and saying that you have to be the ones to tell him, particularly if that comes at a cost to A and makes her (and possibly even the kids, for a while) more vulnerable. I would think carefully about that. Is anyone else aware of this?

[Derfel Cadarn]

There was something very similar in the UK not long ago, resulting in the death of a young child. Tell the father, and if things escalate before he can take action, report it to social services.

[Maithanet]

Yeah,

6 minutes ago, baxus said:

I'm no expert but it seems to me that it's in their best interest to remove them from potentially dangerous environment. It's not possible to know for sure what happens after that. It might cause additional conflicts, but it might be a wake-up call it sounds A needs. You can't know for sure, but you can know that it's better for kids to be with one parent in a peaceful and loving environment than with the other parent in a chaotic and possibly violent environment. It's not as if kids would go into foster care system or anything like that.

FYI, we're like 99% sure we're going to tell X today about the situation. 

To some extent the question is what do we do at that point.  Do we share the pictures of A (which he could use in court against her?)  And do we give him our full support in trying to get full custody from A?  Even financial support? 

[Cas Stark]

7 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

There was something very similar in the UK not long ago, resulting in the death of a young child. Tell the father, and if things escalate before he can take action, report it to social services.

Yes the Star Hobson case, where the mother became involved in a same sex relationship where her partner abused both her and the child, escalating abuse against the toddler until the baby was killed.  Even worse, in that case, multiple family members had gone to police/social services about the abuse, but were not believed because the couple claimed they were homophobic.

 

 

I would say yes, the father should be told about what is happening, bullying often escalates into abuse and even if children are not physically at risk, seeing their mother abused is emotionally harmful.  Good luck.  

[3CityApache]

I agree the father should definitely know what is happening, the question is - if they have a shared custody - can't he just know it from the kids? You said older is six, it's communicative enough no doubt.

[Maithanet]

8 minutes ago, 3CityApache said:

I agree the father should definitely know what is happening, the question is - if they have a shared custody - can't he just know it from the kids? You said older is six, it's communicative enough no doubt.

We don't have a great idea of what he knows.  There are plenty of things that we know that the kids are not aware of.  It's also quite possible the kids know things we don't and may have told X. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

Yeah,

FYI, we're like 99% sure we're going to tell X today about the situation. 

To some extent the question is what do we do at that point.  Do we share the pictures of A (which he could use in court against her?)  And do we give him our full support in trying to get full custody from A?  Even financial support? 

If the goal is to get the children out of a potentially dangerous situation, you give him all the evidence. I would also write a formal statement outlining the situation and get everyone in the family who is willing to sign it. You can also reach out to social services anonymously. They’ll be happy to help.

Good luck bud.

[baxus]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

Yeah,

FYI, we're like 99% sure we're going to tell X today about the situation. 

To some extent the question is what do we do at that point.  Do we share the pictures of A (which he could use in court against her?)  And do we give him our full support in trying to get full custody from A?  Even financial support? 

Just to be on the safe side, maybe you should talk to a lawyer who specialises in this kind of things. Just to get to know what are the possible consequences of the actions you are considering. Once you know that, it would be easier to determine how far you are willing to go.

Whatever you decide, it's likely that it will have some bad parts. Just remember that you are trying to do what's best for those two kids who deserve to grow up in an abuse-free environment.

It's definitely a messed up situation and I don't envy you one bit.

[Maithanet]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

I do think the kids' father should know but I appreciate that there's a difference between saying that and saying that you have to be the ones to tell him, particularly if that comes at a cost to A and makes her (and possibly even the kids, for a while) more vulnerable. I would think carefully about that. Is anyone else aware of this?

I'm not sure I understand your question.  Are you asking if anyone else in the family is aware of K's abuse?  Yes, this is a big family and most of A's siblings know what is going on.  I don't know what X knows about this situation, I doubt A is telling him anything, but the kids I'm sure talk about things to some extent. 

[Madame deVenoge]

Both the father AND social services should be notified immediately, with pictures of the abuse and any relevant knowledge shared.

[Maithanet]

We spoke with X this afternoon.  He is going to talk to his lawyer and discuss options with the evidence we have.  He thought that there was a good chance that they could get a court order to keep the kids away from K, but that wouldn't necessarily mean him getting full custody.  But that could potentially mean A (and my wife's) mother have to testify against A+K, which she is willing to do, but would no doubt be very messy. 

[mormont]

5 hours ago, Maithanet said:

I'm not sure I understand your question.  Are you asking if anyone else in the family is aware of K's abuse?  Yes, this is a big family and most of A's siblings know what is going on.  I don't know what X knows about this situation, I doubt A is telling him anything, but the kids I'm sure talk about things to some extent. 

Didn't mean the rest of A's family necessarily, though maybe. It depends on the relationships. Basically, I was just wondering if there's a way to raise this with X without burning all bridges with A: someone less close to A that could get involved.

But like a lot of this, I find it really hard to know what I'd do without understanding all the relationships involved. Which is why you should do what you think is the right thing to do. You know better than any of us how this all fits together.

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

We spoke with X this afternoon.  He is going to talk to his lawyer and discuss options with the evidence we have.  He thought that there was a good chance that they could get a court order to keep the kids away from K, but that wouldn't necessarily mean him getting full custody.  But that could potentially mean A (and my wife's) mother have to testify against A+K, which she is willing to do, but would no doubt be very messy. 

Good luck with all of it. I hope A takes this as a reminder that she, as well as her kids, deserve better and have a right to be safe.

[BigFatCoward]

As someone who's team dealt with one of the most notorious cases of child cruelty and neglect in recent memory you can never act too early, or tell enough people in authority. The things that people can do to children, that shit haunts you forever. 

Everyone always assumes 'someone' will do something. I'm pleased you have told the father, but I wouldn't necessarily rely on them informing appropriate proffesionals.