gruff one Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 24 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: What exactly do you think the state department did? The documentary presents evidence that the state department supported far right groups to overthrow the elected Ukrainian government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Week Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 Ok, well I'm convinced after such a thoughtful and thorough description of the evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gruff one Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Can you give any specific information from that shows it’s not garbage? No, but is out there for people to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 14 minutes ago, gruff one said: I'm not trying to convince anyone. It's information presented. If someone watches it and it's garbage, tell me. See, here's the cool thing - we don't actually have to eat shit to know that it tastes bad, and if someone comes in to claim we should actually eat shit it really is on the shit eater to explain in some detail why we should actually trust anything they say. So really, we should ask you - why should we listen to the known shit eater? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 16 minutes ago, gruff one said: The documentary presents evidence that the state department supported far right groups to overthrow the elected Ukrainian government. What type of support and what evidence? Also question; do you think everything any documentary says is true and should be taken at face value? 10 minutes ago, gruff one said: No, but is out there for people to watch. Oh you can’t give information. That would kinda hint the nearly hours needed to watch the video isn’t worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 Not sure how these things work. In the movies it's usually the CIA that supports the overthrow of elected govts. Is it the State Department IRL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 I watched it a few years ago (friend of mine is a film maker and subscribed to a bunch of digital film fests). I was pretty inebriated when I watched it and most of the modern stuff I don't remember well but I know that there were pretty basic facts that Stone either got wrong or ignored in the early 20th [century] history part. I don't have much background in history but I did take Russian History, and 4 semesters of Russian Language, and got a 5 on the AP European History test 20+ years ago, and I do remember thinking it was pretty slanted - it seemed to imply UKraine had never existed until 1991. And I could have sworn it said that Ukraine was part of Germany post WWI. I'd imagine he played it about as fast and loose with the rest of the facts post USSR. That said it's not like the US wasn't absolutely thrilled about the 2014 coup/revolution (however you look at it) and pretty quick to throw money and weapons at Ukraine, fully cognizant that it would antagonize Russia. I am definitely pretty close to @Winterfell is Burning's description of assuming the worst about the US (especially in foreign policy), but the Stone documentary definitely did a pretty shit job with the basic history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gruff one Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 10 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: What type of support and what evidence? Oh you can’t give information. That would kinda hint the nearly hours needed to watch the video isn’t worth it. Could try watching at the 47 minute mark, a phone conversation between a high level state dept official and the ambassador to Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 9 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said: Not sure how these things work. In the movies it's usually the CIA that supports the overthrow of elected govts. Is it the State Department IRL? It's both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 Of course being far-right doesn't automatically mean anti-Russia. After all, it's the [far] right in the USA and the UK who have their noses right up Putin's back end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 16 minutes ago, gruff one said: Could try watching at the 47 minute mark, a phone conversation between a high level state dept official and the ambassador to Ukraine. Oh you mean how they discussed who they preferred to be president. Which shows—them having preferences in who they’d work with or manages a country. Why is that by itself insidious to you? Do you think America rigged the UK elections because Trump liked Johnson? Do you think America rigged the Canadian elections because Obama endorsed Trudeau? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said: Ah, so that's why the American right thinks everyone to the left of John McCain is unAmerican, and there was even a question mark over John McCain towards the end. Strangely enough, John McCain did address a crowd of protestors in Kyiv in Dec 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gruff one Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 IMDb has a summary, if anyone is interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Oh you mean how they discussed who they preferred to be president. Which shows—them having preferences in who they’d work with. Why is that by itself insidious to you? I haven't watched the Oliver Stone thing (and don't intend to), but I can give you the most relevant bit of that conversation: Quote “So that would be great, I think, to help glue this thing and have the U.N. help glue it and you know ... fuck the EU,” she said in the recording, which was accompanied by still pictures of people mentioned in the call.https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape-idUSBREA1601G20140207 Now, there are two problems with this bit. First, it shows the US seeking to influence Ukrainian politics, something which everyone knew was a red line for Putin. Second, a complete disregard for Europeans, who were reluctant to support an anti-Russian government in Ukraine because... well, you know, Putin might then escalate things, and the EU didn't want a war on its doorstep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 I don't think I could get interested in a Putin documentary unless it's one about his death. His death I think I could find super interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 I saw this great documentary by Oliver Stone that I believed for a long time, it was about JFK and it has Kevin Costner in it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broken one Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 4 hours ago, Rippounet said: Now, there are two problems with this bit. First, it shows the US seeking to influence Ukrainian politics, something which everyone knew was a red line for Putin. Second, a complete disregard for Europeans, who were reluctant to support an anti-Russian government in Ukraine because... well, you know, Putin might then escalate things, and the EU didn't want a war on its doorstep. If you count Poles as Europeans then the last is not completely true. Belief that somebody belongs to somebody elses zone of influence and it would be best to remain this way is one thing, the objects will is another. People want to belong to west so much not because mccain said something to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 8 hours ago, broken one said: The war tourists (i don't mean the veteran o.c.). Are there some general informations on losses? The latest report I've seen is 35 dead, 134 wounded. Buzzfeed News just put out an article that interviews soldiers about the attack, and also digs into how they have been training and gives a sense of some of the organization. Interestingly, the Buzzfeed piece notes that it's claimed no foreign volunteers were among the injured or killed, with one of the volunteers stating he personally neither saw nor knew of any foreign volunteers among the wounded. If so, they must have hit barracks primarily being used by Ukrainians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 Russian prosecutors are now saying they may arrest corporate officers and seize company trademarks and assets of businesses leaving the country over the Ukraine invasion. Putin has said he's in favor nationalizing businesses who pull out. Russian Prosecutors Warn Western Companies of Arrests, Asset Seizures https://www.wsj.com/articles/russian-prosecutors-warn-western-companies-of-arrests-asset-seizures-11647206193 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 That feels like Putain deliberately drawing a new Iron Curtain around Russia. Glad my friend has (so far successfully) got out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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