Announcing The Rise of the Dragon

[The Bard of Banefort]

21 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Well, if Ashara Dayne is Quaithe (and I’m coming around on the idea that she probably is) then that would explain why the Daynes are hella important.

I was big on the Shiera-Seastar-is-Quaithe theory for a long time, but looking at how GRRM normally heavily foreshadows a “lost” character’s return (ex. JonCon and fAegon), I think Ashara makes more sense. Shiera isn’t mentioned much, and between Bloodraven’s description of her as “a woman I desired” (rather than loved) and what George said about how she refused to marry BR because she “preferred to make him jealous,” I don’t their relationship ended well. It sounds like they had a Jaime and Cersei situation, where she simply didn’t care about him as much as did her. With that in mind, I doubt they’re working together now to save the world. (I still think it’s possible that Melisandre is their daughter though).

 

As for Daemon’s stillborn son, he probably planned on naming him either Aegon (to piss of the Greens) or Viserys, for the king. It would explain why he didn’t name his son posthumously, since he planned on having a son with either name eventually. Granted, they may have tried to flatter Corlys by naming the boy after him instead.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I was big on the Shiera-Seastar-is-Quaithe theory for a long time, but looking at how GRRM normally heavily foreshadows a “lost” character’s return (ex. JonCon and fAegon), I think Ashara makes more sense. Shiera isn’t mentioned much, and between Bloodraven’s description of her as “a woman I desired” (rather than loved) and what George said about how she refused to marry BR because she “preferred to make him jealous,” I don’t their relationship ended well. It sounds like they had a Jaime and Cersei situation, where she simply didn’t care about him as much as did her. With that in mind, I doubt they’re working together now to save the world. (I still think it’s possible that Melisandre is their daughter though).

The Daynes are important simply because of Edric Dayne and what he and his family and servants might know about Jon Snow.

In addition to that, they might also be important for Dawn and whatever role it is going to play in the future ... and of course there is Ashara's backstory and whatever role she might play in the future if she was still alive.

As for Shiera - we do need to know her first, but TWoW could be full of Shiera information if George were to decide to have Bran check up on some of Bloodraven's more important memories as part of his greenseer training. It doesn't surprise me at all that Bloodraven's private life wasn't covered by TWoIaF in light of the fact that Bloodraven himself is still a living character during the main series - and thus a crucial firsthand source himself.

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

As for Daemon’s stillborn son, he probably planned on naming him either Aegon (to piss of the Greens) or Viserys, for the king. It would explain why he didn’t name his son posthumously, since he planned on having a son with either name eventually. Granted, they may have tried to flatter Corlys by naming the boy after him instead.

It seems that Rhaenyra named both her sons by Daemon, so Daemon may have preferred a different name. He could have honored his own father Baelon (although they had done that already with Baela, so not that likely), they could have gone with Aemon for Laena's grandfather or Corlys as you suggested. They could also have named him after the Old King or some male version of the Alysanne name to honor her.

I don't really understand how the Greens were pissed off when Rhaenyra named one of her sons Aegon. It is the most common male name for a Targaryen prince, and it would have been quite clear that Rhaenyra's Aegon wasn't named after Alicent's Aegon ... just as Alicent's Aegon wasn't named after Viserys' youngest brother, Jaehaerys' firstborn son, or Aegon the Uncrowned ... but rather Aegon the Conqueror.

And Aegon the Younger was only the fourth son of Rhaenyra - neither her heir nor a direct rival of Aegon the Elder for the Iron Throne. That was always Rhaenyra herself, followed by Jacaerys Velaryon.

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Daynes are important simply because of Edric Dayne and what he and his family and servants might know about Jon Snow.

In addition to that, they might also be important for Dawn and whatever role it is going to play in the future ... and of course there is Ashara's backstory and whatever role she might play in the future if she was still alive.

As for Shiera - we do need to know her first, but TWoW could be full of Shiera information if George were to decide to have Bran check up on some of Bloodraven's more important memories as part of his greenseer training. It doesn't surprise me at all that Bloodraven's private life wasn't covered by TWoIaF in light of the fact that Bloodraven himself is still a living character during the main series - and thus a crucial firsthand source himself.

It seems that Rhaenyra named both her sons by Daemon, so Daemon may have preferred a different name. He could have honored his own father Baelon (although they had done that already with Baela, so not that likely), they could have gone with Aemon for Laena's grandfather or Corlys as you suggested. They could also have named him after the Old King or some male version of the Alysanne name to honor her.

I don't really understand how the Greens were pissed off when Rhaenyra named one of her sons Aegon. It is the most common male name for a Targaryen prince, and it would have been quite clear that Rhaenyra's Aegon wasn't named after Alicent's Aegon ... just as Alicent's Aegon wasn't named after Viserys' youngest brother, Jaehaerys' firstborn son, or Aegon the Uncrowned ... but rather Aegon the Conqueror.

And Aegon the Younder was only the fourth son of Rhaenyra - neither her heir nor a direct rival of Aegon the Elder for the Iron Throne. That was always Rhaenyra herself, followed by Jacaerys Velaryon.

I think the Greens feared Daemon more than Rhaenyra, so they may have been worried that he’d try to find some way to put his own son on the throne.

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think the Greens feared Daemon more than Rhaenyra, so they may have been worried that he’d try to find some way to put his own son on the throne.

There is no indication for this. The Greens talk somewhat about Daemon but more as him being the power behind Rhaenyra's throne, her Bloodraven or Tywin, not a man who is determined to seize the throne himself or put forth his own sons against those of Rhaenyra. Also keep in mind that his daughters were betrothed to Jace and Luke respectively, so assuming he would try to advance Aegon or Viserys at the cost of Jacaerys or Lucerys would cause great strife in the family.

And back when Aegon the Younger was born, in 120 AC, Daemon had just joined the Blacks following his marriage to Rhaenyra. His son was an infant, and Aegon the Younger was about to marry himself. But Alicent was still pissed about the naming choice - back then.

In context I think one of the weirdest things in FaB is Corlys Velaryon irrational and unreasonable obsession with that Aegon-Jaehaera marriage. It is almost as if the author knew that would happen and had the character put it forth first when it made little to no sense. When he first proposes it to Rhaenyra it would settle nothing since Joffrey Velaryon is still alive and his mother's heir, so Jaehaera's children wouldn't exactly be close to the Iron Throne. It wouldn't have been a marriage to unify the two branches. Rather, one would have assumed that Corlys would have wanted Jaehaera to marry Joffrey.

Later it is a stretch that Corlys would champion the cause of Aegon the Younger (who is no blood relation of his) rather than that of Baela or Rhaena or Alyn - either of the girls could have become the new queen of Aegon II while Alyn may have been a good match for Aegon's only surviving child.

We later see similar weirdness in the story that Alyn and Baela's marriage wasn't arranged - prior to FaB it was pretty much consensus that Corlys would have arranged that match to strengthen Alyn's claim to Driftmark and secure a smooth succession - not to mention that it would have strengthened the ties between Driftmark and the Iron Throne if Alyn were the brother-in-law of King Aegon III.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Daynes are important simply because of Edric Dayne and what he and his family and servants might know about Jon Snow.

In addition to that, they might also be important for Dawn and whatever role it is going to play in the future ... and of course there is Ashara's backstory and whatever role she might play in the future if she was still alive.

Again, I might be wrong, but I read somewhere that GRRM didn't want to give away the Dayne house words, because they are too spoilerific. If true, it's probably related to Dawn.

[EggBlue]

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And back when Aegon the Younger was born, in 120 AC, Daemon had just joined the Blacks following his marriage to Rhaenyra. His son was an infant, and Aegon the Younger was about to marry himself. But Alicent was still pissed about the naming choice - back then.

didn't Daemon join the blacks when his daughters were betrothed to Velaryon princes?

 

 

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

didn't Daemon join the blacks when his daughters were betrothed to Velaryon princes?

In an adjacent capacity, perhaps. But at that time the foremost Black was still Harwin Strong, not Daemon. And if Daemon ever had had a son with Laena - who was of the elder branch of the royal family - we have no idea what he would have done. He may have very well defied both the Blacks and the Greens to put his son on the Iron Throne after the death of Viserys I. Even more so if Laena hadn't died and/or Vhagar had remained under his control.

Regarding the artwork - artistic license is well and good, I think, when we actually know how a character looks like. Then we, the readers, are able to realize that the depiction of that character might not be accurate (strangely enough, though, we don't get much of that - I cannot remember ever seeing a black-haired Cersei or Jaime, certainly not in any official artwork).

But when the author doesn't bother giving us or the artists a proper description then the artist's interpretation of a given character or scene - especially in a history book where descriptions in the primary source are very limited - isn't worth all that much.

This book could be a great addition to FaB if there were really canonic portraits of some of the most crucial historical figures appearing in the book ... especially for those characters we have no descriptions for so far. But if they are just interpretations of the various artists then why not go the whole way and imagine (some of) the Velaryons as black people ;-)?

[HoodedCrow]

House Dayne motto: The long night ends with dawn?

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Again, I might be wrong, but I read somewhere that GRRM didn't want to give away the Dayne house words, because they are too spoilerific. If true, it's probably related to Dawn.

This is a rumor that came about from our remarking that GRRM had a set of words that he gave to us, but he said at the time he wasn't too happy with them and so we chose, in turn, not to share them. It's not because they're spoilery, it's just because it was uncertain that he would stick with them.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

This is a rumor that came about from our remarking that GRRM had a set of words that he gave to us, but he said at the time he wasn't too happy with them and so we chose, in turn, not to share them. It's not because they're spoilery, it's just because it was uncertain that he would stick with them.

Oh, so there were words for other houses, beside Dayne?

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Oh, so there were words for other houses, beside Dayne?

Well, yes, George sent us quite a few back in the day, many as yet unusued in the books. The Daynes were one he shared later, but as I said, because he wasn't really happy with it we decided not to publish them.

[zionius]

One of them, is Bolton's Words, which for some reason is still not seen on Citadel.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

11 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

House Dayne motto: The long night ends with dawn?

"The night is darkest just before the dawn" - Harvey Dayne, probably.

[Ran]

4 hours ago, zionius said:

One of them, is Bolton's Words, which for some reason is still not seen on Citadel.

A problem we've had that has kept us from updating and completing outstanding heraldry is that the software we made it all with is out of date, and so are our templates -- they're in Paintshop Pro's old format, and it's basically no longer properly supported by more modern software (especially our preset layer selections... ugh). There are work arounds but it's such a pain. Probably should see if I can dig up an old Paintshop Pro CD to try and run the old software again.

(Alternatively, we remake it all from scratch, but... ugh. That's a lot of shields to re-do!)

[zionius]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

A problem we've had that has kept us from updating and completing outstanding heraldry is that the software we made it all with is out of date, and so are our templates -- they're in Paintshop Pro's old format, and it's basically no longer properly supported by more modern software (especially our preset layer selections... ugh). There are work arounds but it's such a pain. Probably should see if I can dig up an old Paintshop Pro CD to try and run the old software again.

https://winworldpc.com/product/paint-shop-pro/5x Not sure if this one works, looks legit to me. Anyway, one need a virtual machine to run it, so it's not too dangerous to try.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

17 hours ago, Ran said:

Well, yes, George sent us quite a few back in the day, many as yet unusued in the books. The Daynes were one he shared later, but as I said, because he wasn't really happy with it we decided not to publish them.

So you're basically sitting on a small treasure trove. 

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

So you're basically sitting on a small treasure trove. 

Oh, no, we've published all of them on Westeros. Dayne and maybe one other (and that may be my memory playing tricks on me) are the only ones we haven't shared.

[The Bard of Banefort]

One thing I don’t get is why George doesn’t just release the parts of TWOW he already has written. The only reasons I can think of are a) he’s so attached to the seven-book plan that he’s determined to condense the rest of the story into two books, or b) he’s still undecided on future plot points that would require him to edit TWOW depending on which route he takes. It could also just be anxiety.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One thing I don’t get is why George doesn’t just release the parts of TWOW he already has written.

Because the book isn't finished yet, and he rewrites so much that the story isn't done until it's done. He said that he's even rewriting some of the preview chapters that have been released.

[The Bard of Banefort]

6 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

He said that he's even rewriting some of the preview chapters that have been released.

How long ago did he say that?