Ukraine 9: Where does it go from here

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, broken one said:

I also do not think Trump is very representative for the whole picture nor that one can cancel all American politics of last years because of him.  

Nobody said that -- except we are living in the politics of these last years, which were -- and still are in the destabilization of the USA groups, such as the many who laid siege to the Capitol, who are outright racist and women haters, who wish to destroy the government of the USA, so they can kill anybody they feel like killing whenever they feel like it -- they really want to, and expect to, go back to the way everything worked in the southern states before slavery was abolished.  They even say this. So your remark is irrelevant and incorrect.

We literally are under attack in the USA by these forces, which are in favor of and collusion with Putin -- have received payment/reward/assistance out of Russia to destroy the elements here in the US they want eradicated and destroy the government and whatever forces are in their way, still.  They tell us this.  Believe what they say!  Like believe what Putin says.

 

[JoannaL]

25 minutes ago, Kalibuster said:

And yeah, I think its patently obvious that aside from the Borat jokes no one in the US or Europe would give two shits if what is happening in Ukraine happened in Kazakhstan. The amount of implicit racism in people on display has opened a lot of eyes I think. 

Sucks if you're Syrian or Afghani or Yemeni, but maybe the next massive humanitarian crisis will be a bit more empathetically received 

(It won't but its nice to think that)

I think this is an unfair assesment. If the West IS interested and does something -like in afganistan- it is critized permanently for imperalism and colonisation. It is implied by western critics and the states in question that bringing democracy is something bad. Indeed Afganistan (their not fighting the Taliban at all) showed that not all countries and cultures embrace our way of life (which is their right). So when should the West be involved and when shouldnt it? Surly it is not racism to be more involved for people who want you to be involved?

[Corvinus85]

19 minutes ago, Toth said:

Great that you bring that up! The "Who considers the Baltics part of Europe?" nonsense earlier instantly evoked in me the feeling that people who are so dismissive of them were never slapped around by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in EU4. I still have nightmares from that.

When it comes to strategy video games we are all Putin.

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

I think this is an unfair assesment. If the West IS interested and does something -like in afganistan- it is critized permanently for imperalism and colonisation. It is implied by western critics and the states in question that bringing democracy is something bad. Indeed Afganistan (their not fighting the Taliban at all) showed that not all countries and cultures embrace our way of life (which is their right). So when should the West be involved and when shouldnt it? Surly it is not racism to be more involved for people who want you to be involved?

This is a lot of words to say that you're comfortable with the racism 

[Werthead]

It looks like the Ukrainians have retaken Irpin to the NW of Kyiv, which is good news.

[RhaenysBee]

9 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

I think this is an unfair assesment. If the West IS interested and does something -like in afganistan- it is critized permanently for imperalism and colonisation. It is implied by western critics and the states in question that bringing democracy is something bad. Indeed Afganistan (their not fighting the Taliban at all) showed that not all countries and cultures embrace our way of life (which is their right). So when should the West be involved and when shouldnt it? Surly it is not racism to be more involved for people who want you to be involved?

I think the west should just be self-aware enough to know what it’s doing, for what reasons, to what effect and at what cost. And then own it. 

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

10 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

I think this is an unfair assesment. If the West IS interested and does something -like in afganistan- it is critized permanently for imperalism and colonisation. It is implied by western critics and the states in question that bringing democracy is something bad. Indeed Afganistan (their not fighting the Taliban at all) showed that not all countries and cultures embrace our way of life (which is their right). So when should the West be involved and when shouldnt it? Surly it is not racism to be more involved for people who want you to be involved?

What?  The West cares so little for Afghanistan that it invaded it for revenge and left it starving.  And nobody really gave a shit.

The US didn't go into Afghanistan to spread democracy.

That being said, the shrivelled little husk of a pollyanna inside me is hoping that all the people who have expressed concern and horror for what's happening in Ukraine will be similarly caring and concerned about similar atrocities when they happen elsewhere.  

 

 

[JoannaL]

6 minutes ago, Kalibuster said:

This is a lot of words to say that you're comfortable with the racism 

No, I say this is no racism. We should let the states be which want to be left alone and help the ones which share our values? So no imperalism and interference when it is not wished from our side.

[JoannaL]

1 minute ago, Larry of the Lake said:

What?  The West cares so little for Afghanistan that it invaded it for revenge and left it starving.  And nobody really gave a shit.

The US didn't go into Afghanistan to spread democracy.

That being said, the shrivelled little husk of a pollyanna inside me is hoping that all the people who have expressed concern and horror for what's happening in Ukraine will be similarly caring and concerned about similar atrocities when they happen elsewhere. 

The US brought free elections to Afganistan, and schooling for women. These are no small things. And Afganistan is starving now, because the Taliban rule it, it wasnt starving last year.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, JoannaL said:

No, I say this is no racism. We should let the states be which want to be left alone and help the ones which share our values? So no imperalism and interference when it is not wished from our side.

Okay, I'll get into this more because your vomitous word salad spewing makes no sense.

Why is helping Syrian refugees have anything to do with imperialism? Who would claim this?

Why does not supporting Saudi attacks in Yemen mean imperialism? 

What does invading Afghanistan after a major attack have to do with wanting to push western values?

And what does ANY of that have to do with, say. Russia invading Kazakhstan and western countries actually caring about that invasion?

If I'm being vaguely charitable it sounds like you are somehow equating "people caring" with "people invading and overthrowing" which is bizarre, but just to be clear that isn't what I'm talking about. I'll put it more bluntly - the western countries would never sanction Russia like they have if Russia invaded Kazakhstan. They would not send billions of dollars in military aid to Kazakhstan. And it would get almost no news either.

[JoannaL]

1 minute ago, Kalibuster said:

If I'm being vaguely charitable it sounds like you are somehow equating "people caring" with "people invading and overthrowing" which is bizarre, but just to be clear that isn't what I'm talking about. I'll put it more bluntly - the western countries would never sanction Russia like they have if Russia invaded Kazakhstan. They would not send billions of dollars in military aid to Kazakhstan. And it would get almost no news either.

Ok, lets say the people of Kazakhstan share western values and just want to live in a western style democracy. Please explain why you think, that under these conditions, the West wouldnt care as much? How do you know that? I think we would care as much. Please show me proof why you think it is not so.

My point with afganistan was that there are cases that countries just want us gone. And then thats fine as well. And I mentioned afganistan because you mentioned it as sign of western rascism.

[RhaenysBee]

1 minute ago, Kalibuster said:

I'll put it more bluntly - the western countries would never sanction Russia like they have if Russia invaded Kazakhstan. They would not send billions of dollars in military aid to Kazakhstan. And it would get almost no news either.

And I would also be curious to see the press in the alternate reality in which not-Russia invades Ukraine. I have feeling that a huge part of the west’s reaction is fueled by the historically rooted hostility toward and fear of Russia, not just the plight of Ukraine. In other words, it’s not so much Ukraine the west cares about, but the west itself. (Which is not a problem, it’s the natural way of things. The problem is the narrative that pretends otherwise) 

[DMC]

23 minutes ago, Kalibuster said:

What does invading Afghanistan after a major attack have to do with wanting to push western values?

Dubya's neocons absolutely wanted to push western values in Afghanistan.  Dude compared rebuilding Afghanistan to the Marshall Plan.

[Kalbear]

20 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

Ok, lets say the people of Kazakhstan share western values and just want to live in a western style democracy. Please explain why you think, that under these conditions, the West wouldnt care as much? How do you know that? I think we would care as much. Please show me proof why you think it is not so.

Can you show me proof of the west caring about it at, like, any time at all?

Even one example?

Because I can show you a few in just the last few years where the west didn't give a shit. Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan (which we STILL don't care about), Iraq. Did the west even pay attention to the fact that there was an actual war between Armenia and Azerbaijan two years ago?

And the whole 'western democracy' thing should ALSO not be a thing to care about, right? Like, let's say Kazakhstan just wants to not be under Russian orbit and wants to go to Turkey. Should it be okay to kill hundreds of thousands of people and cause a massive refugee crisis because they have, I dunno, an Emperor of Kazakhstan?

20 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

My point with afganistan was that there are cases that countries just want us gone. And then thats fine as well. And I mentioned afganistan because you mentioned it as sign of western rascism.

I mention the humanitarian crisis of doing fuckall to help Afghanis as a sign of western racism. Not the actual, ya know, invasion. Afghanistan is an especially shitty example because we were totally fine invading the country, taking it over, but when it became even a little bit hard we peaced out and left it to get fucked. 

 

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

Dubya's neocons absolutely wanted to push western values in Afghanistan.  Dude compared rebuilding Afghanistan to the Marshall Plan.

I get that, and I even supported that idea to some degree. But that's not what I'm talking about when I'm talking about the racism present in the West with respect to humanitarian crises. 

[Kalbear]

21 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

And I would also be curious to see the press in the alternate reality in which not-Russia invades Ukraine. I have feeling that a huge part of the west’s reaction is fueled by the historically rooted hostility toward and fear of Russia, not just the plight of Ukraine. In other words, it’s not so much Ukraine the west cares about, but the west itself. (Which is not a problem, it’s the natural way of things. The problem is the narrative that pretends otherwise) 

I'm sure that's part of it too - but I also think that the welcoming of Ukrainian refugees with open arms isn't happening in Poland if they look like Afghanis. I think the demands of the US to give Ukraine more weapons and more support don't happen if it's Yemeni. 

[JoannaL]

12 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

And I would also be curious to see the press in the alternate reality in which not-Russia invades Ukraine. I have feeling that a huge part of the west’s reaction is fueled by the historically rooted hostility toward and fear of Russia, not just the plight of Ukraine. In other words, it’s not so much Ukraine the west cares about, but the west itself. (Which is not a problem, it’s the natural way of things. The problem is the narrative that pretends otherwise) 

I get what you want to say but I believe it is not so, at least not in Germany. Our perception of the Russians is friendly . We like to think the best of them, there is no hostility. (Which means we were willfully blind the last 20 years). I think what really got us to see the error of our way and to care for the Ukrainians was the way they stood up and started fighting for their right to determine their fate, for their right to western values. We are often so saturated that we do not have any longer the clear and decisive way of speech like the Ukranian leader. He is admirable and brave and the Ukranian people are admirable and brave. And we should have seen in 2014 what was going on and we didnt (exactly because we are not hostile to the russians and also because it was so comfortable to stay blind and to take their gas).

[3CityApache]

20 minutes ago, Kalibuster said:

 the welcoming of Ukrainian refugees with open arms isn't happening in Poland if they look like Afghanis.

Isn't happening among current shitty government offcials, that's for sure. Wouldn't it be hapenning among regular folks, who are responsible for the bulk of this welcoming Ukrainians now? I wouldn't be so sure. Are there rasists in Poland? Sure, and the current shitty government gives them room and opportunity to crawl under their rocks and into the spotlight. Are Poles rasists? I wouldn't say so, at least no more so than any other nation. I would gladly help refugees no matter how they look like and where they're from. 

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, 3CityApache said:

Isn't happening among current shitty government offcials, that's for sure. Wouldn't it be hapenning among regular folks, who are responsible for the bulk of this welcoming Ukrainians now? I wouldn't be so sure. Are there rasists in Poland? Sure, and the current shitty government gives them room and opportunity to crawl under their rocks and into the spotlight. Are Poles rasists? I wouldn't say so, at least no more so than any other nation. I would gladly help refugees no matter how they look like and where they're from. 

I don't honestly know about Poland specifically, but given how many refugees from Syria have been turned away by all of Europe I don't know if it matters about how welcoming Poles would be to them if they came. Ultimately a better point is not that they would say 'no way' - instead, what they will say if their government says no to the refugees is 'eh'. 

Most of them won't raise any fuss about it.

And I can guarantee you since we've actually seen it that that is not the case if governments turned away Ukrainians. 

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, JoannaL said:

Ok, lets say the people of Kazakhstan share western values and just want to live in a western style democracy. Please explain why you think, that under these conditions, the West wouldnt care as much? How do you know that?

Because Kal has some basic knowledge of world history? Or even of current events?
The West almost never puts its principles before its interests (that's why it's so wealthy in the first place, duh!). Though of course, our governments are perfectly fine doing the right thing if it can benefit them, or, at least, if it doesn't cost them much.
Another way of putting it is that "benevolent geopolitics" is a myth, a contradiction in terms. There has never been a truly benevolent superpower... There are superpowers who cultivate their "soft power," which is a different thing.

Edit: oh, and btw, the right-wing nutjobs are delighted by the fact that many Uktrainian transgender people are denied any border crossing when their sex and gender do not match, and people born male are then asked to join the military.

[DMC]

34 minutes ago, Kalibuster said:

when I'm talking about the racism present in the West with respect to humanitarian crises. 

Sure.  I mean, that's even apparent within the Ukraine refugee crisis.

...and now I see you basically mentioned this in your next response.