How the Five-Year Gap Would Have Changed ASOIAF

[Ser Leftwich]

On 3/20/2022 at 8:38 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

What are your thoughts?

GRRM would have used almost all the same words, just arranged in a different order.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

The problem is that some plotlines are moving forward quicker than others. Characters like Cersei and Brienne are actually past the point in the story where they would have been after the 5-year gap, while the likes of Arya and Bran still aren't there.

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The problem is that some plotlines are moving forward quicker than others. Characters like Cersei and Brienne are actually past the point in the story where they would have been after the 5-year gap, while the likes of Arya and Bran still aren't there.

I think they’re both waiting for other characters to reach them, as is Sansa. Bran and Sansa each only had three chapters in the last two books. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

7 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think they’re both waiting for other characters to reach them, as is Sansa. Bran and Sansa each only had three chapters in the last two books. 

From what I've heard, Cersei's arrest and Brienne's encounter with Lady Stoneheart were supposed to happen after the gap.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

On 3/24/2022 at 10:45 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

She already is married in AFFC.

If I read the books without having any knowledge of what age the characters are supposed to be, I would think they were several years older than they are. And I’ve seen other people make this observation as well, so it isn’t just me.

I like to tell myself that a year in Westeros is a little longer than our own years. I think if you dig enough this can be disproven or at least challenged, but I chose not to dig.

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I like to tell myself that a year in Westeros is a little longer than our own years. I think if you dig enough this can be disproven or at least challenged, but I chose not to dig.

This would probably be the easiest way to age up the characters.

I suspect that in the years to come, fan fiction writers will start producing "alternative versions" of beloved works. We've already seen this with fan edits of the Star Wars prequels and the Hobbit movies, and I remember reading about how some devoutly religious parents would swap out magic terms for religious ones when they read the Harry Potter books to their kids. I think in a few year's time, we'll start seeing fans take it upon themselves to make edits of the books that stretch out the timeline/add the gap/age up the kids, etc. They won't be able to make any money off of it, but when has that ever stopped fans?

[The Bard of Banefort]

Looking at it all laid out like this, I think the way the gap could have worked was by breaking it into three books instead of two: the first book beginning shortly after ASOS and focusing solely on Stannis, the Ironborn and the Dornish (this would presumably be a shorter book), followed by AFFC/ADWD after the gap. That said, I can certainly understand why this would present so much trouble for George, since he wouldn't have had the finished fourth and fifth books as a template (not to mention that he seems very set on seven books). 

And yet, whenever George has talked about why the gap wasn't working, he usually pinned it on Cersei or Dany or Jon, not Stannis, which makes me wonder if he did have an explanation for why Stannis didn't march on Winterfell until ADWD. 

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

And yet, whenever George has talked about why the gap wasn't working, he usually pinned it on Cersei or Dany or Jon, not Stannis, which makes me wonder if he did have an explanation for why Stannis didn't march on Winterfell until ADWD. 

Well, the situation with Jon and Cersei make sense. Because Cersei's story revolves around governance and Jon's story is so closely tied with the realm's defense from the wildlings and the Others.

But Dany's? How does that work?

[The Bard of Banefort]

Cersei killing a bunch of people during the gap wouldn’t even be much of a problem when you consider that it usually isn’t revealed when she does murder someone. The High Septon dies, but we can only infer that she was behind it from context clues. We learn that she ordered Balon Swann to kill Trystane, even though she never thinks of Trystane (or Myrcella) once in AFFC. And she’s still claiming that Melara fell down the well. So all George would have to do is say “this character died” and let the audience figure out whether it was Cersei behind it.

[SeanF]

I don't think that Cersei's government should have fallen apart as rapidly as it did.  And, I think it should have taken the slavers a longer time to assemble such large forces against Dany and her supporters.  Those arcs would have benefitted from the five year gap.  I think that Arya could easily have spent five years at the House of Black and White.  Tyrion could have been serving Dany's government in Meereen easily enough, for a number of years. 

The real difficulty, IMHO, would be with the Northern storyline.  I don't think it's plausible that Jon and Stannis would be hanging around not doing anything much over the course of five years.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I don't think that Cersei's government should have fallen apart as rapidly as it did.

Maybe not, but I still think it would take less than five years

[The Bard of Banefort]

29 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Maybe not, but I still think it would take less than five years

That’s why I think that, in the case of the five year gap, Kevan would originally agree to serve as Hand before stepping down at the beginning of AFFC. The Tyrells would insist on Tommen and Margaery fulfilling their betrothal, and Cersei, now regent and realizing that Tommen is almost of age and she is about to lose power, would spiral out of control.

[BlackLightning]

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

I don't think that Cersei's government should have fallen apart as rapidly as it did.  And, I think it should have taken the slavers a longer time to assemble such large forces against Dany and her supporters.

In any case, five years is too long.

Cersei left to herself is a nightmare. Her government should've and could've lasted longer but five years? No, that's too much of a plot hole.

The Tyrells would not have just sat by and let her remain in power for so long. The problem with the Tyrells as Kevan and Cersei both notice is that they push for too much too quickly. They are a grasping, reaching bunch and...again, they will not just let the Lannisters have complete control of the government during the regency.

They wasted no time with Sansa on account of Willas...and that was when Tywin was in power. and when Varys was tittering about Why would waste time with Tommen on account of Cersei and Kevan without Tywin or Varys to give them pause?

As for Dany, thank you for bringing up this point. Although I have no real problem with it as it is, you're 100% right to say that the slavers couldn't have assembled such large forces against Team Targaryen so quickly. But it shouldn't have taken them five years to do so. And I think Dany would've been able to crush the Sons of the Harpy in five-years-time which means that they wouldn't have worked as a smokescreen to the slavers' activities in Yunkai and Volantis. 

A one- or two-year time gap would've been enough. And it would've made a lot more sense for the story in the North.

17 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Cersei killing a bunch of people during the gap wouldn’t even be much of a problem when you consider that it usually isn’t revealed when she does murder someone. The High Septon dies, but we can only infer that she was behind it from context clues. We learn that she ordered Balon Swann to kill Trystane, even though she never thinks of Trystane (or Myrcella) once in AFFC. And she’s still claiming that Melara fell down the well. So all George would have to do is say “this character died” and let the audience figure out whether it was Cersei behind it.

You would have had to double back and talk about all those murders, plots and intrigues eventually.

Either with flashbacks and dreams intermingled with present events (doesn't work that well in books; works well in TV and movies) or later on at her trial

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

6 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Cersei left to herself is a nightmare.

I'm going to contradict myself a bit here, but I do sometimes get the feeling that Cersei's descent into the dumpster fire was somewhat sped up in AFFC. In the first three books she didn't seem that incompetent. Evil, yes, but not crazy.  

[The Bard of Banefort]

Maybe three years instead.

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I'm going to contradict myself a bit here, but I do sometimes get the feeling that Cersei's descent into the dumpster fire was somewhat sped up in AFFC. In the first three books she didn't seem that incompetent. Evil, yes, but not crazy.  

Yeah, and that’s one of my big complaints with this story. There’s no reason for everything to be so condensed. Just factoring in all the travel time should have made time pass faster.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, and that’s one of my big complaints with this story. There’s no reason for everything to be so condensed. Just factoring in all the travel time should have made time pass faster.

What I'm trying to say is, AFFC Cersei would go down super quickly, which is what happened, but it might not be 100% consistent with AGoT-ASOS Cersei.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

In any case, five years is too long.

Cersei left to herself is a nightmare. Her government should've and could've lasted longer but five years? No, that's too much of a plot hole.

The Tyrells would not have just sat by and let her remain in power for so long. The problem with the Tyrells as Kevan and Cersei both notice is that they push for too much too quickly. They are a grasping, reaching bunch and...again, they will not just let the Lannisters have complete control of the government during the regency.

They wasted no time with Sansa on account of Willas...and that was when Tywin was in power. and when Varys was tittering about Why would waste time with Tommen on account of Cersei and Kevan without Tywin or Varys to give them pause?

As for Dany, thank you for bringing up this point. Although I have no real problem with it as it is, you're 100% right to say that the slavers couldn't have assembled such large forces against Team Targaryen so quickly. But it shouldn't have taken them five years to do so. And I think Dany would've been able to crush the Sons of the Harpy in five-years-time which means that they wouldn't have worked as a smokescreen to the slavers' activities in Yunkai and Volantis. 

A one- or two-year time gap would've been enough. And it would've made a lot more sense for the story in the North.

You would have had to double back and talk about all those murders, plots and intrigues eventually.

Either with flashbacks and dreams intermingled with present events (doesn't work that well in books; works well in TV and movies) or later on at her trial

And if Dany couldn’t crush the Sons of tfe Harpy, I’m sure the freedmen would have taken matters into their own hands.  If people feel the government can’t cope with the situation, then they form pro-state terrorist organisations.

[sifth]

19 minutes ago, SeanF said:

And if Dany couldn’t crush the Sons of tfe Harpy, I’m sure the freedmen would have taken matters into their own hands.  If people feel the government can’t cope with the situation, then they form pro-state terrorist organisations.

I always felt the Sons of the Harpy plot came way too fast. These guys basically just come out of nowhere and are suddenly the biggest threat Dany has to deal with. 

[EggBlue]

Feast /Dance could easily be stretched out up to two years , with some storylines (such as Dany's) starting later in the timeline and some stuck in slow paced travels (such as Stannis's) or slow paced actions (It's utterly stupid that Cersei messes up a new thing every week . that could be reduced to messing up once a month)