How the Five-Year Gap Would Have Changed ASOIAF

[Daeron the Daring]

2 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

I am ambivalent about ages of Stark children and especially Daenerys, on the one hand it heightened emotional impact and was necessary for some aspects of the story, Sansa not being beddable in the AGOT is the foremost of them, while on the other hand some of the characters do seem young for the roles thrust upon them. Daenerys and Stark boys could all have been a bit older and still fulfill the same roles and make for a more pleasurable and realistic read, even though story works fine just as it is.

That said age ship has sailed long ago and five year gap was by far the worst notion Martin ever had, it would be atrocious and degrade the quality and the flow of the writing by a lot, I can't fathom how people think constant flashbacks would work out in the context of realistic and believable character development. There was no good way to implement it, yeah it sounds fine for characters to have the time to cut their teeth on ruling (Jon, Daenerys) assassinating (Arya) intriguing (Sansa) greenseering (Bran) or maestering (Sam) but the narrative up until end of ASOS made it clear there is no time, winter is coming, said the Stark words. But it goes further, years of improvement are antithetical to the overall tone, where inexperienced youths must sink or swim in the face of calamities beyond their understanding. Not to mention they already had plenty of practice in the choice domains so additional skill threatens to make them too competent for the stakes of the story. 

Martin made a right choice there to work with what he has, but that being said his insistence on filling the timeline to the brim with major characters minor adventures is really grinding my gears in ADWD, young ones could have easily gain some sufficient additional knowledge and experience off stage while Stannis marches, Victarion sails or Arienne, Davos and Cersei chill in confinement. Say Jon ships Sam and next chapter is like five months had passed since Sam left, of course we knew Jon did some ruling in the mean time, he wasn't just chilling in LC Tower drinking mulled wine, Stannis isn't likely to report every step to Jon so whole North business could have been made to work nicely. News do travel slowly and armies even more so and that fact allows for such luxuries while maintaining tight overall schedule.

You kinda convinced me, but on the other hand, if TWOW's won't be at least 2 year long, I don't know how we get any weight of winter and time actually passing, with characters actually aging for once.

[Rondo]

It is a coming of age story.  The point of view characters grow up.  Some for the better (Daenerys, Samwell, Gilly) while others flip over to the dark side (Arya, Bran).  The Song is about the characters themselves.  The plot is just the backdrop.  Grown up characters are already plentiful.  We have Jorah, Tyrion, Barristan for the adults who experienced a life-crisis and turned their lives around.

[Equilibrium]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

You kinda convinced me, but on the other hand, if TWOW's won't be at least 2 year long, I don't know how we get any weight of winter and time actually passing, with characters actually aging for once.

Time in absolute sense in character development is unimportant now in my opinion given that almost all characters hit the needed biological development landmarks (not many people are looking forward to the bedding of Arya Stark and I doubt her story will take us there).

On the account of winter things will go south fast, there are already stockpile and supply chain issues  and snow several feet deep, biting cold and eventual ice zombies will make situation apocalyptic in weeks if not days.

So we will feel the weight even in the much shorter time frame, like we already do in the North. 

[csuszka1948]

On 3/21/2022 at 2:38 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

 

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• The Griffs: Few changes necessary. Why they waited to invade until now could just come down to it taking longer to assemble an army.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Griffs were specifically invented after George scrapped the 5-year-gap to replace Daenerys Targaryen's invasion with another Targaryen invasion (+Euron's invasion in the Reach) as the 'second threat to the peace of Westeros'. The dragonhorn was probably introduced in Feast to bring dragons to Westeros without the need for Dany to go there.

Here is an interview from 2000, in which GRRM revealed that Dany will arrive to Westeros in the 4th book:

"NG: Three more volumes of A Song of Ice and Fire wait to be written. What shape do you expect them to take, and are their titles finalized as yet?

GRRM: Yes, three more volumes remain. The series could almost be considered as two linked trilogies, although I tend to think of it more as one long story. The next book, A Dance With Dragons, will focus on the return of Daenerys Targaryen to Westeros, and the conflicts that creates. After that comes The Winds of Winter. I have been calling the final volume A Time For Wolves, but I am not happy with that title and will probably change it if I can come up with one that I like better."

Yes, the 'cloth dragon' was part of the visions in ACOK, but it probably referred to a different subplot. 

 

This is just one example, but there are many other ones. For example, Dorne waiting 5 years to send Quentyn to Dany or the fighting on the Riverlands 'restarting' after 5 years makes little sense. The characters of Arianne, Hizdahr and Harry the Heir and probably the concept of the Kingsmoot were invented in Feast. 

The story would be VERY different if the 5-year gap was successfully implemented. 

 

The biggest problems I see are:

1. The Wall storyline: why didn't Jon bother to send any evidence of the Others' or the wights' existence to the Iron Throne or if he did, why did they absolutely ignore it?

2. Dany has just smashed the slave trade by destroying Astapor and forcing Yunkai to give up slavery. Why don't the slavemasters react? She also has dragons. Why doesn't half the world tries to get her hand? I think GRRM worked these out pretty well in ADWD, but the problem is that the entire slavery subplot feels too big for the scope of ASOIAF (it should really be a separate series on its own) and George isn't very good at writing Essosi characters and societies (compare the Dothraki or slavers with the wildlings!), often leaning into Orientalist tropes.

3. Tyrion not doing anything for 5 years

4. Northern storyline, Ironborn struggle, Brienne's journey accross the Riverlands: I think these could to be released in a separate, smaller novel (perhaps called Feast for Crows)

 

Overall, the best storyline in AFFC and ADWD - the Northern campaign - would be much-much worse, but the Southern storyline and the story of Dany would be better received.

 

However, it's astonishing to me that the biggest problems for GRRM - the reasons why he abandoned the 5-year gap - were Cersei's ruling and the Dornish storyline.

Cersei as portrayed in the first 3 books (before the Maggy's prophecy retcon) wasn't staggeringly incompetent. Why does every hand she goes through need to be explained in detail? Aerys has gone through 3-4 Hands in a year and we barely know anything about them.

The Dornish are even weirder. Doran has waited 15 years with implementing his plans and cannot wait 5 more?

Edited June 10, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Alden Rothack]

I am in favour of making some of the characters older to begin with but not having a five year time gap, that can work in some series but its too hard to make it work in this with the series sense of growing urgency.

[csuszka1948]

6 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

I am in favour of making some of the characters older to begin with but not having a five year time gap, that can work in some series but its too hard to make it work in this with the series sense of growing urgency.

 

I think the characters could be aged up 1-3 years and the pace of the story could be slower.

It doesn't make much sense that the War of the 5 Kings is finished within a year in a continent the size of Westeros. Approximately 2.5 years passed between the death of Jon Arryn and the death of Jon Snow, and if you double that time (5 years instead of 2.5) and add 1-3 years into the starting age of the characters it starts to make more sense.

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

I am in favour of making some of the characters older to begin with but not having a five year time gap, that can work in some series but its too hard to make it work in this with the series sense of growing urgency.

I agree. I think it would ruin the flow. For example, the Others, who have been slowly but surely moving closer to the Wall, would have to stop/slow down during the gap. Flashbacks would not have the same effect of conveying the growing threat.

[Alden Rothack]

6 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I think the characters could be aged up 1-3 years and the pace of the story could be slower.

Easily if not more

6 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

It doesn't make much sense that the War of the 5 Kings is finished within a year in a continent the size of Westeros. Approximately 2.5 years passed between the death of Jon Arryn and the death of Jon Snow, and if you double that time (5 years instead of 2.5) and add 1-3 years into the starting age of the characters it starts to make more sense.

yes, wars lasting years were not unknown and the seven kingdoms are much bigger than their anglo-saxon counterparts.

 

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree. I think it would ruin the flow. For example, the Others, who have been slowly but surely moving closer to the Wall, would have to stop/slow down during the gap. Flashbacks would not have the same effect of conveying the growing threat.

I'd drop the gap but make the WO5K longer to even things out, if you want any extra time its there not later where you have to fill it in with flash backs

[Curled Finger]

There are things about characters being so young that utterly horrify my senses, oddly, Mercy wasn't one of them.  Arya, little devil that she is, has spent the last year of her life interacting with and enjoying the company of sex workers.  They are her friends.  This Bobono creature is able to touch her and make lewd remarks (if not demands) to her in front of people they work with and no one says a thing despite her age.  Despite her tender years, Arya is no stranger to sex and seduction.  It's all part of her world.  

Many times I have wished characters were older.  Then I wonder if I would have the same reaction to the circumstances they find themselves in.  Sansa's non-bedding, Arya's anger at the gods, Hotpie's bully façade, Tommen's kittens.  The children are clearly children and this punctuates every slap, punch, kick and insult they take.  I don't know that I would have been so keenly aware of the vow the children Meera and Jojen give to 7 year-old Bran had they all been in their 20s or 30s.  Honestly, could anyone stand a sulky brooding Jon Snow as a 20 year-old?  How about some of the more impulsive decisions and older Dany would have made?    I can't see her putting on a breast exposing dress in Qaarth as a grown woman.  Just can't.  

Would Sam have been able to pull off the whole craven thing with an older Jon?  Sam was 18 for crying out loud!  No, I think there is something magical about the band of brothers, of boys on the cusp of manhood at the Wall that wouldn't be present with older characters.  Precisely where a scared chubby boy fits perfectly.  

While a 5 year gap may have been more comfortable it would not be the same story.  I like this story just the way it is, come what may.