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Craster's Daughters


Curled Finger

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15 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Another possibility is that WW are ruled by a queen and she do not want any competition.

In Sandkings the maws which may be analogous to the Others or the king/queen Other were female even though they were called kings. The males were the nasty bugs.

Women seem to bring the armies in ASOIAF. Stannis would be nothing without his 'Queen's men', Margery brings the armies of the reach with her as her dowry, Visenya instituted the Kingsguard, Dany's army seems to grow in an almost supernatural manner (like the brotherhood without banners does, which started life as a notable exception but are now under the sway of LSH) and I'm sure there are more examples that aren't coming to mind right now.

If we do get some sort of King Other in this story I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was in fact a Queen Other.

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I don't think it matters that Craster is running his bloodline out of existence by giving up the boys. The Long Night is coming and I doubt the Others were going to feed the people of Craster's Keep or shelter them from the cold. I'm willing to bet that every woman and girl at the keep is dead at this point. 

Whatever the Others' objectives are/were, whatever they were biding their time for, the Others, imo, weren't going to need Craster or his wives anymore once the Long Night fell. The mutiny by the Night's Watch precipitated things.

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4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Wiz, you were here long before I showed up so I am certain you are familiar with every theory ever dreamed up!  It is the recall I often stumble on and imagine your wonderful mind can only keep so much at a time. 

Thank you kindly. :D

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Others searching for PwP instead of a Stark is new thinking to me and I appreciate that and the logic involved.

I think it was Joe Magician that first pointed out the Others study Waymar & his sword in particular before daring to attack & kill him. Why? Joe came to the conclusion that the Others thought Waymar may have been a threat because of who he potentially was & the weapon he was potentially weilding. Once they realised he was a mere mortal they felt comfortable enough to attack.

So who would they be scared of? TPtwP is a good candidate. If they are aware of prophecy, or have their own prophecy, then perhaps they know there will be another saviour with a magic sword that will fight & could potentially beat them. The fact Waymar looks a bit like Jon Snow helps the theory. 

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Still, we know everyone, even a magical maester, was wrong about AA.

Do you mean that AA was an evil  character? Who was the magical maester that was wrong? Apologies, my mind wonders.

But yes, AA was hailed as a hero in the texts but I think there is much evidence to say he was a villain. Murdering ones wife is not cool. 

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

That Starks may be the only human who can transform into others is a great idea.

Thanks. ☺

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Why would The Others want creatures with their own blood?  Maybe an infusion of spicy Stark magic? 

Because their own blood will be the end of them.

If you know a male from your family will kill you in the future it would make sense for you to eliminate each & every male ever born within your family so as protect your own life. No male relative, no death for you. 

So the Others may be on the lookout for the PtwP or the magical Stark that is a danger to them. Explains the interest in Waymar (Northern Highborn with nice sword) & why they want Craster's sons (if they have Stark blood)

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

If Craster is a Stark without the magical talents we see in the contemporary Starks, what would it matter if he gave his daughters?   Magic is as strong in Arya as Jon and Jon is the presumed Dude here

They don't want or care about his daughters because they can't be a Prince. 

It's a male who is prophesied to be the 'Prince'twP, if they know this then they wouldn't be bothered about Craster's daughters. 

However, why the Others would be happy with a sheep or a dog instead I cannot answer. :D

There's so much to talk about when it comes to AA, Nissa Nissa, the weirnet, a prince that was promised potentially being a child stolen from the Others back in the day, Stark relationship with the Others, blood lines etc. It would take a huge essay to really explain these things with text to back up the theories. :)

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4 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 

I don't think it matters that Craster is running his bloodline out of existence by giving up the boys. The Long Night is coming and I doubt the Others were going to feed the people of Craster's Keep or shelter them from the cold. I'm willing to bet that every woman and girl at the keep is dead at this point. 

Whatever the Others' objectives are/were, whatever they were biding their time for, the Others, imo, weren't going to need Craster or his wives anymore once the Long Night fell. The mutiny by the Night's Watch precipitated things.

Not precisely the quote I was looking for but it serves:

The woman's mouth hung open, a wet pink cave, but Craster only gave a snort. "We've had no such troubles here . . . and I'll thank you not to tell such evil tales under my roof. I'm a godly man, and the gods keep me safe. If wights come walking, I'll know how to send them back to their graves. Though I could use me a sharp new axe." He sent his wife scurrying with a slap on her leg and a shout of "More beer, and be quick about it."  ACOK Jon III

I thought Craster giving his reasons for weirdness was a good place to start.   As you said earlier there may be no real agreement with the Others.  I took the implication to be that Craster's sacrificed sons are more due to a wives tale or superstition than any real knowledge.   Plenty of folks north of the Wall gone now at Others' hands.  Apologies if that was not your implication. 

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4 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Do you mean that AA was an evil  character? Who was the magical maester that was wrong? Apologies, my mind wonders.

But yes, AA was hailed as a hero in the texts but I think there is much evidence to say he was a villain. Murdering ones wife is not cool. 

There's so much to talk about when it comes to AA, Nissa Nissa, the weirnet, a prince that was promised potentially being a child stolen from the Others back in the day, Stark relationship with the Others, blood lines etc. It would take a huge essay to really explain these things with text to back up the theories. :)

Thanks Wiz.  No, my list was stressing how even a Targaryen maester of the royal blood didn't suspect a girl would be PwP.  PwP is used interchangeably with AA so I am never entirely sure there is a difference between the heroes.  Since you bring Joe Magician up I see the direct correlation to his ideas about The Others interaction with Waymar.  I think like any character in story, PwP, AA and TLH will all have warts, particularly if they are a character in this world.   Except Brienne who would simply be heroic and believe her effort isn't enough.   Sorry, couldn't resist.  I used to have an idea about AA related to Nissa Nissa...kinslaying--that's what it was!  So I never understood why AA was a good guy in the 1st place, magic sword be damned.   

Let's get writing Wiz.  By the looks of this little topic folks want to talk about this stuff! 

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4 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

The only thing I get from this is doubt that Craster's kids directly grow up to be Others.

Yah, you get to deep thinking something you took for granted from your own 1st reading and understand and these guys blow your mind.   There are some great ideas out there.  I would like to know what really happens to the babies, too.  

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9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I thought Craster giving his reasons for weirdness was a good place to start.   As you said earlier there may be no real agreement with the Others.  I took the implication to be that Craster's sacrificed sons are more due to a wives tale or superstition than any real knowledge.   Plenty of folks north of the Wall gone now at Others' hands.  Apologies if that was not your implication. 

I think my point was that Craster and his wives were protected as long as Craster provided sons. Regardless of the reason the Others chose him to be their baby factory, once the Long Night came, I don't think they were going to need him or his wives anymore. And now that he's dead, they don't need the women. Craster's "human" line (if his sons are really turned into Others) was going to die out regardless.

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I used to have an idea about AA related to Nissa Nissa...kinslaying--that's what it was! 

I don't know that they are related, but I think that she does have king's blood. And the Azor Ahai prophecy has two moving parts to it.

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

So I never understood why AA was a good guy in the 1st place

I wouldn't necessarily say that he's a good guy or a bad one. I think he falls right in the middle. I think that he is someone who did what was required of him in the moment. You have to have people who are willing to make the hard choice and he was that person. 

In a sense, and for me, this goes back to Maester Aemon's parting words to Jon Snow when he told him to kill the boy. He also told him that he thought that Jon has the strength in him to do what must be done and I think that this is the type of character AA was

AA sacrificed Nissa Nissa's life for the greater good, but I think that the larger story is that Nissa Nissa willingly sacrificed herself for the greater good. The real hero of the story for me, is Nissa Nissa. If there's no Nissa Nissa, then there is no sword that the Others cannot stand against and AA wouldn't have entered the realm of legends.

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

AA sacrificed Nissa Nissa's life for the greater good, but I think that the larger story is that Nissa Nissa willingly sacrificed herself for the greater good. The real hero of the story for me, is Nissa Nissa. If there's no Nissa Nissa, then there is no sword that the Others cannot stand against and AA wouldn't have entered the realm of legends.

I've long been of the suspicion that a) 'Nissa' will be revealed to mean sister and b) that there are 2 of them, that's why the name is repeated. The cry of agony and ecstasy is in fact 2 cries, agony from the killed and ecstasy from the one who manipulated AA into running a sword through his wife's heart. Why? If AA's forging of Lightbringer is in fact echoed throughout the story most of the principal AA stand ins we see are flanked by 2 women (sometimes even sisters, even his). If the sun did in fact once have 2 moons and 1 shattered to birth dragons after moving too close to that sun then I'm tempted to believe that AA had two wives.

But I also suspect that the whole prophesy thing is a grift and that people like Mel who are looking for an AA reborn to end the long night are being led down something of a garden path. We don't even have a long night to end(unless the gap between Dance and Winds is a sort of performance art representative of such an event and Martin's going full on multimedia for us) and we don't have time in 2 remaining books to have and resolve one. Mel and Targs, the people who tell us about AA (other than of course Saan who retells the folk tale), receive their information from sources that we can't call reliable. 

Anyway that's a lot of unsupported speculation but I thought I'd throw it in there anyway.  Maybe Nissa Nissa was a self sacrificing hero, but I suspect that the woman we refer to as NN was a victim of her evil sister and easily led brother/ husband.

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21 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Yeah, if this were an effective baby sacrifice factory Craster would be saving some portion of the sons to relive some of his own responsibilities and expand the potential of the entire operation. Just by saving 1 son per breeding cycle he could have (starting in year 12 because that bastard Craster isn't going to wait until they're old enough to drive) exponentially increased his production potential.  If someone had six sigma'd the thing 15 to 20 years ago the Others could have been over the Wall before Robert got gored.  Sure, that's a bit of a joke, but is the fact that Craster is working at the pace he's working despite the fact that he has the means and materials to increase production an indication that his production was being deliberately paced? 

I think it's as simple as a son would end up being a rival who could supplant him.

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The NW vow says:

I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.

Benjen and Jeor remind Jon, however:

A man of the Night's Watch takes no wife and fathers no sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor. And you are the only sons we shall ever know.

So you may be onto something in questioning the distinction between Craster's sons and daughters.

Other clues about the son/daughter distinction may come from:

Quote

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

ASoS, Bran IV

I wonder whether the giving of seed is part of the explanation. Is seed always symbolic of the male contribution to procreation? Does the Night's Queen want only seed? Not literally, as you point out, because infants would not be able to have sex. Maybe the Others raise up the infants, though, like The Borg keeping humanoid babies in drawers and gradually hooking them up to the cyber implants until they are mature.

I suspect that Gilly's baby, Monster, will lead us to new insights about the sacrifice of Craster's sons. Instead of giving him to the Others, Jon Snow gives him to Val, sister of Dalla, who seems like a pretty good approximation of the Night King's Corpse Queen. Will he continue Craster's blood sacrifices when he is old enough?

And the binding of brothers may also be part of the logic behind Craster's sons being sacrificed but not his daughters. I think we are supposed to compare the young men "sacrificed" to the NW with the Craster babes sacrificed to the others.

Quote

Ser Alliser fixed him with a reptile stare. "They will call you men of Night's Watch now, but you are bigger fools than the Mummer's Monkey here if you believe that. You are boys still, green and stinking of summer, and when the winter comes you will die like flies." And with that, Ser Alliser Thorne took his leave of them.

AGoT, Jon V

Many in this forum see "war is bad" as a central theme of the series. The author also likes irony. So the point of the sons turning into Others may be that the NW and the Others are enemies but it's just random luck that a boy serves on one side or the other. Craster's father was a man of the NW but he was raised among the wildlings. Mance's father was a man of the NW, iirc, but he was raised to be a recruit for the black brothers. Now Craster's son by Gilly and Mance's son seem to have switched places.

When Jon Snow lets the Wildlings through the Wall and signs them up to join the NW, he admits a few women into the ranks. Maybe this shows that he would sacrifice daughters to the Others as easily as sons.

I also wonder whether Melisandre's use of king's blood for some spells is another clue. It's always a boy she wants to burn, isn't it? Or a boy's blood? Why wouldn't queen's blood have the same value?

While we are on the subject of hidden villains, I wonder whether we should be discussing the Silent Sisters? They seem creepy to me, with their bone-boiling hobby. How many bones disappear before reaching their destination, and get used in glamor magic or Rattleshirt haute couture or are piled at the feet of the Balor the Blessed statue? Or what do they do with the sloughed-off flesh that they remove from the bones? Are the Silent Sisters yet another parallel to the Others and do they take human sacrifices 'neath the guise of preparing bodies for last rites?

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7 minutes ago, Seams said:

The NW vow says:

I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.

Benjen and Jeor remind Jon, however:

A man of the Night's Watch takes no wife and fathers no sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor. And you are the only sons we shall ever know.

So you may be onto something in questioning the distinction between Craster's sons and daughters.

Other clues about the son/daughter distinction may come from:

I wonder whether the giving of seed is part of the explanation. Is seed always symbolic of the male contribution to procreation? Does the Night's Queen want only seed? Not literally, as you point out, because infants would not be able to have sex. Maybe the Others raise up the infants, though, like The Borg keeping humanoid babies in drawers and gradually hooking them up to the cyber implants until they are mature.

I suspect that Gilly's baby, Monster, will lead us to new insights about the sacrifice of Craster's sons. Instead of giving him to the Others, Jon Snow gives him to Val, sister of Dalla, who seems like a pretty good approximation of the Night King's Corpse Queen. Will he continue Craster's blood sacrifices when he is old enough?

And the binding of brothers may also be part of the logic behind Craster's sons being sacrificed but not his daughters. I think we are supposed to compare the young men "sacrificed" to the NW with the Craster babes sacrificed to the others.

Many in this forum see "war is bad" as a central theme of the series. The author also likes irony. So the point of the sons turning into Others may be that the NW and the Others are enemies but it's just random luck that a boy serves on one side or the other. Craster's father was a man of the NW but he was raised among the wildlings. Mance's father was a man of the NW, iirc, but he was raised to be a recruit for the black brothers. Now Craster's son by Gilly and Mance's son seem to have switched places.

When Jon Snow lets the Wildlings through the Wall and signs them up to join the NW, he admits a few women into the ranks. Maybe this shows that he would sacrifice daughters to the Others as easily as sons.

I also wonder whether Melisandre's use of king's blood for some spells is another clue. It's always a boy she wants to burn, isn't it? Or a boy's blood? Why wouldn't queen's blood have the same value?

While we are on the subject of hidden villains, I wonder whether we should be discussing the Silent Sisters? They seem creepy to me, with their bone-boiling hobby. How many bones disappear before reaching their destination, and get used in glamor magic or Rattleshirt haute couture or are piled at the feet of the Balor the Blessed statue? Or what do they do with the sloughed-off flesh that they remove from the bones? Are the Silent Sisters yet another parallel to the Others and do they take human sacrifices 'neath the guise of preparing bodies for last rites?

Ah Seams, you always bring the unexpected to a conversation.  I would think many groups point to other groups in this story.  But to Craster's girls specifically...Sam stole Gilly and her baby as you described.  Now we know Sam really is a BAMF despite his protestations.  In my estimation this is a parallel not only to wildling mating ritual but to the stealing of valuable assets.   Sam isn't an Other of course, but Gilly and the baby are something very special I imagine.  As a brother of the NW Sam has pulled off something of an NK move in taking Gilly and sex aside, simply loving her and the boy.  The brothers at Castle Black certainly had to put up with her residing with them, which they weren't all particularly happy about.  The contribution of seed doesn't happen for 2 more books!  But there is something in this love affair with Gilly and her living among the brothers.   You know full well I can't put my finger on it, but I know it's there.  

Craster is very clear about telling the visiting NW brothers not to even speak to his wives.   He was protecting them from er infiltration no doubt, but I wonder if there wasn't more in that too.   Something beyond or bigger than the women being impregnated by well strange.   As in not Craster.    Whatever the deal was it was his deal.   NK seems to have bent his brothers to his will and got them to participate in his unholy practices, whether that is giving their seed or children or something so awful I have not yet imagined it.   This is plenty bad enough. I know we are supposed to see NK in Craster, but it isn't perfect according to legend.   The real NK had help doing whatever he was doing while Craster was really a 1 man show...until Sam showed up at any rate.  

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21 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 

I don't think it matters that Craster is running his bloodline out of existence by giving up the boys. The Long Night is coming and I doubt the Others were going to feed the people of Craster's Keep or shelter them from the cold. I'm willing to bet that every woman and girl at the keep is dead at this point. 

Whatever the Others' objectives are/were, whatever they were biding their time for, the Others, imo, weren't going to need Craster or his wives anymore once the Long Night fell. The mutiny by the Night's Watch precipitated things.

No, it doesn't likely matter, still I would like to know what he thought he was doing--where and how he learned about the sacrifices.  

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2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I nominate Cersei

See I think she was one Nissa when Jamie was banging her and Bran was the other when Jamie defenestrated him 'for love'. I think the author sometimes emasculates males so they can play that moon/ wife/ sister role, but emasculation doesn't always equal feminization. A child would fit, so would a half man or a eunuch for example. (nothing original from me here this is pretty much all lml) 

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On 3/23/2022 at 12:00 PM, Curled Finger said:

In ACOK Gilly informs us:  "For the baby, not for me. If it's a girl, that's not so bad, she'll grow a few years and he'll marry her. But Nella says it's to be a boy, and she's had six and knows these things. He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That's why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep's gone too. Next it will be dogs, till . . ." She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly.   Jon III

Craster is a nasty thing.  Still I wonder if this passage isn't telling us something else.   Sons are the primary sacrifice then sheep then dogs, but no daughters?  Why wouldn't the daughters be an acceptable sacrifice?   Is this telling us daughters are more or less valuable than dogs?  Could daughters be sacrifices as a last resort or are they simply unacceptable?

The White Walkers, the Starks, and Craster are related. 

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On 3/24/2022 at 12:02 AM, Curled Finger said:

I am aware of the idea, but it is by no means canon.   We don't know what the Others are or want.  We don't know they can't breed.   Back when I was just reading without the benefit of so many ideas and opinions I thought the Others were somehow eating or drawing life force from the sons.  

I don't think that's it. The only realistic possibility if the Others can't breed is that Crasters sons have special blood, and if I had to guess, it's Targaryen in nature? Bloodraven is probably his father, seems the most likely candidate. 

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