Craster's Daughters

[Jon-Snow]

On 3/24/2022 at 10:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

Thank you for you thoughts.    I don't know what the Others are doing and fail to recognize the higher value in a male soldier in any army.  There are roughly a million and a half soldiers in the US military.   That military is comprised of nearly 15% women with an additional 18% or so in the reserves.   Small, true, but not insignificant.  We see 1 Other in a group of 6 I think in the prologue of AGOT.   That 1 Other appears to make very short work of Waymar Royce with superior skill and weaponry.  6 well trained fighters of either gender could have killed Waymar with little effort yet only 1 stepped up to the plate.    The truth is we don't know what we are dealing with in the Others.  

It was six Others, not one Other, and five wights. They were expecting Jon Snow, and a real tough fight. Once Waymars wound smoked, indicating he had hot blood, and sword broke against theirs, they taunted him, and it was cold butchery.

"Who's this one now? He has the look of a Stark." Craster most likely told the Others about Waymar when he came through before the Prologue, and about Benjen who was investigating his disappearance. Also, not long after leaving Crasters, they're attacked yet again... Clearly Craster is communicating with them somehow?

[Rondo]

The White Walkers are a sausage club.  They want Craster's sons for their skinchanging blood.  Craster got his genes from the Starks.  This gene is probably passed down through the males.

[Curled Finger]

On 3/28/2022 at 3:33 PM, Jon-Snow said:

I don't think that's it. The only realistic possibility if the Others can't breed is that Crasters sons have special blood, and if I had to guess, it's Targaryen in nature? Bloodraven is probably his father, seems the most likely candidate. 

That's actually interesting.  Why would you think Targaryen blood would be valuable to The Others? I don't see that often related.  It is possible I see end game where The Others are concerned, but not so much where Dragons be.  Fire as a driving life force where Ice is more a preservation of the same.  Best I can immediately come up with is that much (human) needed frozen fire, but I can't see others wanting any of that around.  

[Curled Finger]

On 3/29/2022 at 6:21 PM, Rondo said:

The White Walkers are a sausage club.  They want Craster's sons for their skinchanging blood.  Craster got his genes from the Starks.  This gene is probably passed down through the males.

Ok, I'll bite.  What do The Others actually want or need skin changer blood for?  The Starks' blood contains far more magic than skin changing.  They are wildly psychic. Seems to me whatever the possession of dead bodies is called it is much like skin changing so far as I can see the skill suits what I have seen of The Others.  

[Curled Finger]

On 3/28/2022 at 3:54 PM, Jon-Snow said:

It was six Others, not one Other, and five wights. They were expecting Jon Snow, and a real tough fight. Once Waymars wound smoked, indicating he had hot blood, and sword broke against theirs, they taunted him, and it was cold butchery.

"Who's this one now? He has the look of a Stark." Craster most likely told the Others about Waymar when he came through before the Prologue, and about Benjen who was investigating his disappearance. Also, not long after leaving Crasters, they're attacked yet again... Clearly Craster is communicating with them somehow?

But how is the real question here.   Early in the thread it was discussed how really unlikely any real communication is with The Others.  Still there is some ancient knowledge that may have been preserved in the tales of a single father husband with a captive audience.   We know all the people of Westeros relish their histories and legends.   We loathe Craster for many reasons, it's very easy to overlook any honest or true quality he may have had.   Perhaps this portion of what I imagine could be some part of the Pact and the preservation of the ritual sacrifice is the only true we get from this character.   I read the term soul memory used in conjunction with instinct.  Perhaps conditions as vital as those possibly outlined in the pact of the Children and 1st Men may have some fundamental role to play in the making of this culture.   Why not?   I think the 3rd son to the Watch may be a thing like this and wonder if there is not more to the legend of Brave Danny Flynt.   Sorry, didn't mean to digress here.   

[Rondo]

On 4/2/2022 at 4:28 PM, Curled Finger said:

Ok, I'll bite.  What do The Others actually want or need skin changer blood for?  The Starks' blood contains far more magic than skin changing.  They are wildly psychic. Seems to me whatever the possession of dead bodies is called it is much like skin changing so far as I can see the skill suits what I have seen of The Others.  

Skin changing is how they control the wights.  This is how the Others control their army of the dead.  

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, Rondo said:

Skin changing is how they control the wights.  This is how the Others control their army of the dead.  

May be a case of chicken or egg here.   Necromancy is raising the dead, not skin changing though I don't discount skin changing animates the dead.  Nonetheless, my understanding of the histories indicates that The Others were doing their thing long before House Stark was even established.  The kings of winter had many er talents including skin changing but certainly not limited to skin changing.  Perhaps the Others have lost one of the other magical talents?  Bran is right there in the thick of things surrounded by COTF and seemingly protected from the Others in his place.   Perhaps dead is all The Others can affect with whatever their power is and they want to conquer the living employing all the talents the Starks possess--greensight, necromancy, skin changing, clairvoyance and whatever magic the Red Kings possessed.   

[LynnS]

If the White Walkers are made of snow and ice and cold; can be killed with dragonglass to break the spell holding them together;  I'm not sure they can breed or that they are human.  The Others is a flexible term that can be used to describe the wildlings or one group of people from another.  Breeding with the Others to produce half-human children sounds like the offspring are skinchangers and wargs to me.  

The story of the Night King and Queen could be an outsider's version of the wildling tradition of chasing down and capturing your mate, thus giving the Others/wildlings your offspring/half-human children. 

Not sure what it means to sacrifice to the Others if they are the white walkers in the current story.  Sacrificing to the Weirwood or Old Gods could also be attributed as sacrificing to the Others.  

We don't really know what happens to Craster's sons or who is taking them or why Craster's women are concentrating the bloodline through inbreeding.  Gilly is the only female who flees to the Wall.  The rest did not.  Where did they go?  Not all of them stayed at Craster's Keep.  

[Jon-Snow]

On 4/2/2022 at 4:37 PM, Curled Finger said:

But how is the real question here.   Early in the thread it was discussed how really unlikely any real communication is with The Others.  Still there is some ancient knowledge that may have been preserved in the tales of a single father husband with a captive audience.   We know all the people of Westeros relish their histories and legends.   We loathe Craster for many reasons, it's very easy to overlook any honest or true quality he may have had.   Perhaps this portion of what I imagine could be some part of the Pact and the preservation of the ritual sacrifice is the only true we get from this character.   I read the term soul memory used in conjunction with instinct.  Perhaps conditions as vital as those possibly outlined in the pact of the Children and 1st Men may have some fundamental role to play in the making of this culture.   Why not?   I think the 3rd son to the Watch may be a thing like this and wonder if there is not more to the legend of Brave Danny Flynt.   Sorry, didn't mean to digress here.   

not at all, that's also very interesting! I'm not sure I can guess how they communicate? Maybe "the Old Tongue" such as the Giants use, or being Bloodravens line, he's a greenseer(can't remember if he has a Weirwood Tree?). But I find Waymars death, Benjen's disappearance(and his dead cohorts), and then the Fist attack points directly to the old goat! Somehow, I think Bran is with the actual "bad guys"???

[Jon-Snow]

On 4/2/2022 at 4:25 PM, Curled Finger said:

That's actually interesting.  Why would you think Targaryen blood would be valuable to The Others? I don't see that often related.  It is possible I see end game where The Others are concerned, but not so much where Dragons be.  Fire as a driving life force where Ice is more a preservation of the same.  Best I can immediately come up with is that much (human) needed frozen fire, but I can't see others wanting any of that around.  

I'm not quite sure yet? I suspect that the "dragon riding" ability, and the "warging" ability are the same thing? Bloodraven would have a double dose being a Blackwood and Targaryen...  I also don't think it's an accident that GRRM just so happens to never have had a Stark marry a Targaryen, to throw us off of the scent? Or I'm a complete idiot, but I don't care, the speculation, fan theory is part of the fun!

[Curled Finger]

On 4/5/2022 at 12:28 PM, LynnS said:

If the White Walkers are made of snow and ice and cold; can be killed with dragonglass to break the spell holding them together;  I'm not sure they can breed or that they are human.  The Others is a flexible term that can be used to describe the wildlings or one group of people from another.  Breeding with the Others to produce half-human children sounds like the offspring are skinchangers and wargs to me.  

The story of the Night King and Queen could be an outsider's version of the wildling tradition of chasing down and capturing your mate, thus giving the Others/wildlings your offspring/half-human children. 

Not sure what it means to sacrifice to the Others if they are the white walkers in the current story.  Sacrificing to the Weirwood or Old Gods could also be attributed as sacrificing to the Others.  

We don't really know what happens to Craster's sons or who is taking them or why Craster's women are concentrating the bloodline through inbreeding.  Gilly is the only female who flees to the Wall.  The rest did not.  Where did they go?  Not all of them stayed at Craster's Keep.  

Wow LynnS, great input as usual.  Thank you so much!  I need to know if your opening paragraph indicates that The Others are just a band of Wildlings?  That's a first if so.  If I have misunderstood, please elaborate!  We know the NW made sacrifices to -------? under NK's er, dominion, but to be honest I have a really hard time with NQ being OK with her babies being disposed of.   Perhaps it was not babies sacrificed.  If not, have you any guess as to what the sacrifices may have been?  

See, I think having those 3rd sons go off to the NW is a strange thing and ancient practice, but it seems there are shields from many many houses in the Shield Hall.  Always considered this as First Men's sacrifices for the defense of the land.   I believe Benjen was always intended to join the Watch, just as Waymar went after him.  Defense requires sacrifice.  We bandy about ideas for the emergence of The Others.  I think it is far less to do with births of prophecy than negligence of The Pact with the COTF.   If over thousands of years First Men's families have forgotten their promise or promises while remaining protected...The COTF seem to be keeping pretty much to their areas.

I confuse the books and show so I will leave you to the text as to the fates of those unfortunate Craster survivors.   I remember a fire and a small group of them going away not wishing to stay at the keep.  

It's good to see you.  

[Curled Finger]

On 4/5/2022 at 3:50 PM, Jon-Snow said:

not at all, that's also very interesting! I'm not sure I can guess how they communicate? Maybe "the Old Tongue" such as the Giants use, or being Bloodravens line, he's a greenseer(can't remember if he has a Weirwood Tree?). But I find Waymars death, Benjen's disappearance(and his dead cohorts), and then the Fist attack points directly to the old goat! Somehow, I think Bran is with the actual "bad guys"???

Ah thanks.  The Others have their own language:

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.  AGOT Prologue

You cannot reason with or exchange insults with someone you can't understand.  However, there does appear to be inflection with intent in whatever the Other said.  I've read a ton of ideas about the COTF being the ultimate baddies in the story, but I think they are probably somewhere between good and bad.  Maybe they did create the Others or maybe they have simply existed with them and understand them.   Either way, the COTF are in much better shape than humans.   Who knows?   Maybe the Others' reappearance has nothing do do with humans at all.  Maybe there are so few COTF left they are unable to fulfill an agreement like The Pact only with The Others.   I can see where the COTF struck a bargain with The Others on behalf of humans, who would be no more than meat with metals they hate.   Maybe beating hearts stink?  Someone somewhere in all the madness of Westeros done dropped a ball.  Then again, you could be absolutely correct about the COTF being the real bad guys.  I resigned myself to no happy endings in this tale.  

[Curled Finger]

On 4/5/2022 at 3:53 PM, Jon-Snow said:

I'm not quite sure yet? I suspect that the "dragon riding" ability, and the "warging" ability are the same thing? Bloodraven would have a double dose being a Blackwood and Targaryen...  I also don't think it's an accident that GRRM just so happens to never have had a Stark marry a Targaryen, to throw us off of the scent? Or I'm a complete idiot, but I don't care, the speculation, fan theory is part of the fun!

Sorry, I hit the submit reply before finishing above.  1st things 1st!  Yes, the Blackwoods have an enormous tree at their home, Raventree Hall.   Thousands of ravens flock to it though it has been dead for many years.   Those lousy Brackens...

Ah ha--a most curious and fun mystery that whole Pact of Ice and Fire deal.  We do, however, have the possibility of a union between the bastard sister of Lord Stark and one of Rhaenyra's sons.   Love it!  Not a Stark, but the Blackwoods are First Men and our Bloodraven is at least north/south First Men/Targ match his own bad self.  

We would have nothing to do if we did not have delicious speculation!  

[LynnS]

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I need to know if your opening paragraph indicates that The Others are just a band of Wildlings?

Describing a group as Other than your group pf people or distinct from yourself in some way is a catch all term and it depends on who is telling the story.  In the case of the Night King, this sounds like an Andalized tellng of the tale especially since records were apparently destroyed so that we don't even know his name.  The conflict between the Watch and wildlings centers around religious beliefs and refusal to kneel to any king; and so the Wildlings become the Others/enemy/alien to the NW. . 

I don't think that was always the case.  The Night Fort being the first and oldest fort suggests that the Watch and the Wildlings were closer in their beliefs at one point, until the arrival of the Andals at the Wall.  Discovering that the NK 'sacrificed' to the Others/Gods of the Wood was the cause of conflict and demise of the NK.   

Naming someone king or queen is an Andal construct.  Stannis does the same thing with Val.  Even though we know she is not a queen and Mance is not a king, these titles don't have the same meaning across cultures.  Mance is a war lord and Val may be a wood witch or priestess.  Chasing and capturing a wildling woman is the standard form for pairing in the Wildling culture; so I think we can say the NQ was a wilding woman and not a supernatural white walker.  He give her his seed/offspring for some reason, purposed in a similar way to Craster. 

It's not really clear what happens to the sons or why Craster's bloodline is so important that the Watch and the Wildlings overlook the abomination of incest.  Craster bears a heavy curse and he is a monster in everyone's eyes but apparently a necessary evil.  Gilly's baby is meant to be Craster's replacement, another monster.  And so Craster was raised by his own mother for that purpose. Craster is brought up to believe that his daughters will be his wives and his sons will be given to the gods and that gives him protection and the favor of the gods.  In what ever way he is being used by the gods, that is enough to give him immunity from prosecution by the Watch and the Wildlings.  His bloodline is favored for some reason.

We don't really know much about Wildling religion or practices other than sacrifices to the trees something that Bran sees in his wierwood travels and something Jon sees on the way to Molestown in DwD.  I'm referring to the drunken ash, the old chestnut and the oak tree; all with new carved faces.  There must be something that is a bit more organized than the odd wood witch.

The village of Whitetree is the place where Craster's mother originates.  It's a place of old power; with a tree that frightens the men of the Watch.  It's massive mouth filled with burnt offerings including sheep and human bones.  It's strange to feed the tree this way.  Why does it contain sheep bones?   Why does Craster give his sons and livestock to the gods?  Sounds more like provisioning to me considering that winter is upon them. 

Craster isn't as isolated as we imagine.  He is visited by the Watch and the Wildings for news and for trade.  Perhaps this is how he acquires his livestock and perhaps the Wildlings help provide for his wives.  Perhaps Craster is also required to provide for his boys and their keepers.  I suspect the brothers were being raised at Whitetree for an unknown reason.  And I think that the people of Whitetree and what remains of Crasters women, those who fled, are now hidden with the COTF in underground caverns.

I think there has been more contact between Craster's Keep and Whitetree than we are told.  How else do the Brothers who collect the newborn sons know about pregnancies outside of supernatural means.  Are these brothers some kind of priesthood?  Was the origial NW a priesthood?

What has Gilly been told? She believes the Brothers come for the newborn sons but I'm not sure she knows much about WWs.  After all she thinks Small Paul has come after her son and he's an ice zombie. So she knows some of the tales; but given that Othor was  sent specifically for Mormont:  it's just as likely that Small Paul was sent to stop Sam.  He's the one carrying the lethal dragonglass back to the Wall. 

.  

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On 4/5/2022 at 11:50 PM, Jon-Snow said:

not at all, that's also very interesting! I'm not sure I can guess how they communicate? Maybe "the Old Tongue" such as the Giants use, or being Bloodravens line, he's a greenseer(can't remember if he has a Weirwood Tree?). But I find Waymars death, Benjen's disappearance(and his dead cohorts), and then the Fist attack points directly to the old goat! Somehow, I think Bran is with the actual "bad guys"???

Hi @Jon-Snow 

Regarding the language of the Others, I think they are talking in the True Tongue, the language of the Singers and the greenseers. 

Quote

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.  (AGOT, Prologue)

The two key phrases here are I think...

1) In a language that Will did not know.

&

2) The voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake.

‐-------------------

1. An unknown language

There have been a couple of characters experience this feeling that they're hearing an unknown language.

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He heard the dark red leaves of the weirwood rustling, whispering to one another in a tongue he did not know. The starlight itself seemed to stir, and all around them the trees groaned and creaked. (ASOS, Samwell III)

The Tongue or language Sam did not know was the leaves rustling in the trees. The trees being described as groaning and creaking suggests it was windy, enabling the rustling of those leaves. The sounds of nature, the True Tongue.

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The trees, the endless trees, soldier pines and sentinels, beech and ash and ancient oaks, chestnut trees and ironwoods and firs. The sound they made was softer than the sea, and she heard it only when the wind was blowing; then the sighing seemed to come from all around her, as if the trees were whispering to one another in some language that she could not understand. (ADWD, The Wayward Bride)

Again the language a human ear can't decipher is that of the wind in the trees and those leaves rustling. 

Grrm gave us a hint about the wind and rustling leaves as speech back in AGOT.

Quote

Bran listened. "It's only the wind," he said after a moment, uncertain. "The leaves are rustling."

"Who do you think sends the wind, if not the gods?" She seated herself across the pool from him, clinking faintly as she moved. Mikken had fixed iron manacles to her ankles, with a heavy chain between them; she could walk, so long as she kept her strides small, but there was no way for her to run, or climb, or mount a horse. "They see you, boy. They hear you talking. That rustling, that's them talking back." (AGOT, Bran VI)

So in conclusion, a language that humans can't understand is the language of nature, the language of the old gods, the Singers, the greenseers. So what else can we learn about that?

-------------

2.Voice cracking like ice on a winter lake.

Let's take a closer look at the True Tongue and what it sounds like.

Quote

The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak. (ADWD, Bran III)

There's that language no human can understand again. This time the reader is told straight up that it's the True Tongue. It's the language of the CotF, the Singers. Delving into the World book, we're told what that language of the CotF/Singers (or True Tongue) sounds like.

Quote

The Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day. (TWoIaF)

Stones in a brook, rain upon water and there's that wind and rustling leaves again. The language of the CotF & Singers that no human can understand is the True Tongue and its based upon the sounds of nature, the sounds they hear every day. 

This is an ancient language that is long forgotten by man. But that passage says Brandon learned how to comprehend the language of the CotF but that the tale isn't worth repeating. Well I think its not worth repeating because we're already reading it. One must become a human greenseer to comprehend it and eventually speak it. I think that's what Brandon the Builder did to understand the True Tongue, he became a greenseer. So what about current timeline Bran?

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"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. (ADWD, Bran III)

Our Brandon is also learning the True Tongue.

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The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon." (ADWD, A Ghost in Winterfell)

Notice how the night was windless yet the leaves were still rustling Theon's name. I think this is Bran being in total control of the tree. Leaves as hands. Anyway, I digress.

The point being that the sounds of nature are what the True Tongue sounds like. So to bring this back full circle, are there are any examples that we can link to the AGOT Prologue passage about the voice sounding like the cracking of ice on a lake? Well yes.

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And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air. "Where are the rest of you?" Bran asked Leaf, once. (ADWD, Bran III) 

Their voices in the True Tongue were as pure as winter air. Kind of like the Others voices sounding like a cracking of ice on a lake. Certainly the cracking of ice on a lake could be described as a sound of nature and one they would hear in their natural surroundings.

To conclude, any time we hear a language long forgotten, a tree with its leaves rustling, or in this case a living (or not ) being speaking with what sounds like the sounds of nature, it's the True Tongue in my opinion. 

For what's it's worth, ravens and wolves speak it too.

Quote

The True Tongue that no human man could speak. The ravens could speak it, though. Their small black eyes were full of secrets, and they would caw at him and peck his skin when they heard the songs. (ADWD, Bran III)

They even whisper it to Coldhands, who obviously understands it. (Coldhands being the closest thing we have in the story to an Other, this is good evidence that the Others language is indeed the True Tongue.)

Quote

From a nearby oak a raven quorked, and Bran heard the sound of wings as another of the big black birds flapped down to land beside it. By day only half a dozen ravens stayed with them, flitting from tree to tree or riding on the antlers of the elk. The rest of the murder flew ahead or lingered behind. But when the sun sank low they would return, descending from the sky on night-black wings until every branch of every tree was thick with them for yards around. Some would fly to the ranger and mutter at him, and it seemed to Bran that he understood their quorks and squawks. They are his eyes and ears. They scout for him, and whisper to him of dangers ahead and behind. (ADWD, Bran I)

And the wolves.

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Of late, he often dreamed of wolves. They are talking to me, brother to brother, he told himself when the direwolves howled. He could almost understand them . . . not quite, not truly, but almost . . . as if they were singing in a language he had once known and somehow forgotten. (ACOK, Bran I)

I think this means that Bran will be able to converse with the Others. He'll be able to speak and comprehend the True Tongue. And of course that the CotF can also converse with them, and have probably been able to for thousands of years. 

Can't wait for Winds, Bran's arc is going to be incredible. 

Cheers    

[Jon-Snow]

On 4/10/2022 at 11:17 AM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hi @Jon-Snow 

Regarding the language of the Others, I think they are talking in the True Tongue, the language of the Singers and the greenseers. 

The two key phrases here are I think...

1) In a language that Will did not know.

&

2) The voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake.

‐-------------------

1. An unknown language

There have been a couple of characters experience this feeling that they're hearing an unknown language.

The Tongue or language Sam did not know was the leaves rustling in the trees. The trees being described as groaning and creaking suggests it was windy, enabling the rustling of those leaves. The sounds of nature, the True Tongue.

Again the language a human ear can't decipher is that of the wind in the trees and those leaves rustling. 

Grrm gave us a hint about the wind and rustling leaves as speech back in AGOT.

So in conclusion, a language that humans can't understand is the language of nature, the language of the old gods, the Singers, the greenseers. So what else can we learn about that?

-------------

2.Voice cracking like ice on a winter lake.

Let's take a closer look at the True Tongue and what it sounds like.

There's that language no human can understand again. This time the reader is told straight up that it's the True Tongue. It's the language of the CotF, the Singers. Delving into the World book, we're told what that language of the CotF/Singers (or True Tongue) sounds like.

Stones in a brook, rain upon water and there's that wind and rustling leaves again. The language of the CotF & Singers that no human can understand is the True Tongue and its based upon the sounds of nature, the sounds they hear every day. 

This is an ancient language that is long forgotten by man. But that passage says Brandon learned how to comprehend the language of the CotF but that the tale isn't worth repeating. Well I think its not worth repeating because we're already reading it. One must become a human greenseer to comprehend it and eventually speak it. I think that's what Brandon the Builder did to understand the True Tongue, he became a greenseer. So what about current timeline Bran?

Our Brandon is also learning the True Tongue.

Notice how the night was windless yet the leaves were still rustling Theon's name. I think this is Bran being in total control of the tree. Leaves as hands. Anyway, I digress.

The point being that the sounds of nature are what the True Tongue sounds like. So to bring this back full circle, are there are any examples that we can link to the AGOT Prologue passage about the voice sounding like the cracking of ice on a lake? Well yes.

Their voices in the True Tongue were as pure as winter air. Kind of like the Others voices sounding like a cracking of ice on a lake. Certainly the cracking of ice on a lake could be described as a sound of nature and one they would hear in their natural surroundings.

To conclude, any time we hear a language long forgotten, a tree with its leaves rustling, or in this case a living (or not ) being speaking with what sounds like the sounds of nature, it's the True Tongue in my opinion. 

For what's it's worth, ravens and wolves speak it too.

They even whisper it to Coldhands, who obviously understands it. (Coldhands being the closest thing we have in the story to an Other, this is good evidence that the Others language is indeed the True Tongue.)

And the wolves.

I think this means that Bran will be able to converse with the Others. He'll be able to speak and comprehend the True Tongue. And of course that the CotF can also converse with them, and have probably been able to for thousands of years. 

Can't wait for Winds, Bran's arc is going to be incredible. 

Cheers    

wow, that was amazing! yea, it seems like the Others speak a language, and it sounds like whats described over and over as long as you pay attention! I'd say Craster, or an intermediary of his is brokering their deal...

[Wizz-The-Smith]

16 hours ago, Jon-Snow said:

wow, that was amazing!

Hey @Jon-Snow 

Thank you kindly, I love everything old gods, greenseer, CotF, the North etc. Bran especially.

16 hours ago, Jon-Snow said:

I'd say Craster, or an intermediary of his is brokering their deal...

Well, there was obviously a deal made or agreed, but I'm not sure there would be any sort of communication or verbal agreement. I tend to think this is something Craster was aware of, an old wives tale so to speak.

There have certainly been sacrificial offerings made to the Others in the past. 

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He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.  (ASOS, Bran IV)

The Night's King was found to have been sacrificing to the Others after his downfall. It's interesting that it says all records were destroyed, Old Nan seems to know the tale. How so? 

Well, the passage also tells us that it was the Stark of Winterfell and the King beyond the Wall, Joramun of the wildlings, who combined their forces to defeat him. So if any remnants of this tale is to have been passed down or remembered it would have to be by word of mouth and the most likely candidates to have done this would be the Stark household and the wildlings. 

The Stark family may have been telling these stories for thousands of years, explaining why Old Nan knows these details. But more importantly for our purposes, the wildlings have never kept records but told their histories in songs and stories. It is likely therefore that the wildlings would have potentially heard these tales of sacrificing to the Others many times. If this information was to be remembered thousands of years later then then the Free Folk are the best candidates to hold this ancient knowledge. 

There are still many questions, is the blood important? Why not the daughters? Why don't other wildlings sacrifice to keep the Others at bay? Etc.

But regards a deal being brokered, my thoughts are that Craster knew of this practise and realised that there was a good chance that sacrificing his sons would appease the cold gods. 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hey @Jon-Snow 

Thank you kindly, I love everything old gods, greenseer, CotF, the North etc. Bran especially.

Well, there was obviously a deal made or agreed, but I'm not sure there would be any sort of communication or verbal agreement. I tend to think this is something Craster was aware of, an old wives tale so to speak.

There have certainly been sacrificial offerings made to the Others in the past. 

The Night's King was found to have been sacrificing to the Others after his downfall. It's interesting that it says all records were destroyed, Old Nan seems to know the tale. How so? 

Well, the passage also tells us that it was the Stark of Winterfell and the King beyond the Wall, Joramun of the wildlings, who combined their forces to defeat him. So if any remnants of this tale is to have been passed down or remembered it would have to be by word of mouth and the most likely candidates to have done this would be the Stark household and the wildlings. 

The Stark family may have been telling these stories for thousands of years, explaining why Old Nan knows these details. But more importantly for our purposes, the wildlings have never kept records but told their histories in songs and stories. It is likely therefore that the wildlings would have potentially heard these tales of sacrificing to the Others many times. If this information was to be remembered thousands of years later then then the Free Folk are the best candidates to hold this ancient knowledge. 

There are still many questions, is the blood important? Why not the daughters? Why don't other wildlings sacrifice to keep the Others at bay? Etc.

But regards a deal being brokered, my thoughts are that Craster knew of this practise and realised that there was a good chance that sacrificing his sons would appease the cold gods. 

Hey Wiz, it's always great to read your posts.  No arguments here only a small point for consideration insofar as wildlings sacrificing...

We read in the World Book that there are wildlings who worship strange gods.   Further, we read about the 1st Men having their own strange gods they brought with them to Westeros.  In that the wildlings are said to be true remnants of the 1st Men perhaps those strange gods are the very gods they brought, perhaps they are the Others and maybe they are weirwoods, but it's just left without further elaboration.   Rereading the passages got me wondering if the 1st Men didn't bring the Others over.    Just for fun thought!~ 

[Curled Finger]

On 4/7/2022 at 7:17 AM, LynnS said:

Describing a group as Other than your group pf people or distinct from yourself in some way is a catch all term and it depends on who is telling the story.  In the case of the Night King, this sounds like an Andalized tellng of the tale especially since records were apparently destroyed so that we don't even know his name.  The conflict between the Watch and wildlings centers around religious beliefs and refusal to kneel to any king; and so the Wildlings become the Others/enemy/alien to the NW. . 

I don't think that was always the case.  The Night Fort being the first and oldest fort suggests that the Watch and the Wildlings were closer in their beliefs at one point, until the arrival of the Andals at the Wall.  Discovering that the NK 'sacrificed' to the Others/Gods of the Wood was the cause of conflict and demise of the NK.   

Naming someone king or queen is an Andal construct.  Stannis does the same thing with Val.  Even though we know she is not a queen and Mance is not a king, these titles don't have the same meaning across cultures.  Mance is a war lord and Val may be a wood witch or priestess.  Chasing and capturing a wildling woman is the standard form for pairing in the Wildling culture; so I think we can say the NQ was a wilding woman and not a supernatural white walker.  He give her his seed/offspring for some reason, purposed in a similar way to Craster. 

It's not really clear what happens to the sons or why Craster's bloodline is so important that the Watch and the Wildlings overlook the abomination of incest.  Craster bears a heavy curse and he is a monster in everyone's eyes but apparently a necessary evil.  Gilly's baby is meant to be Craster's replacement, another monster.  And so Craster was raised by his own mother for that purpose. Craster is brought up to believe that his daughters will be his wives and his sons will be given to the gods and that gives him protection and the favor of the gods.  In what ever way he is being used by the gods, that is enough to give him immunity from prosecution by the Watch and the Wildlings.  His bloodline is favored for some reason.

We don't really know much about Wildling religion or practices other than sacrifices to the trees something that Bran sees in his wierwood travels and something Jon sees on the way to Molestown in DwD.  I'm referring to the drunken ash, the old chestnut and the oak tree; all with new carved faces.  There must be something that is a bit more organized than the odd wood witch.

The village of Whitetree is the place where Craster's mother originates.  It's a place of old power; with a tree that frightens the men of the Watch.  It's massive mouth filled with burnt offerings including sheep and human bones.  It's strange to feed the tree this way.  Why does it contain sheep bones?   Why does Craster give his sons and livestock to the gods?  Sounds more like provisioning to me considering that winter is upon them. 

Craster isn't as isolated as we imagine.  He is visited by the Watch and the Wildings for news and for trade.  Perhaps this is how he acquires his livestock and perhaps the Wildlings help provide for his wives.  Perhaps Craster is also required to provide for his boys and their keepers.  I suspect the brothers were being raised at Whitetree for an unknown reason.  And I think that the people of Whitetree and what remains of Crasters women, those who fled, are now hidden with the COTF in underground caverns.

I think there has been more contact between Craster's Keep and Whitetree than we are told.  How else do the Brothers who collect the newborn sons know about pregnancies outside of supernatural means.  Are these brothers some kind of priesthood?  Was the origial NW a priesthood?

What has Gilly been told? She believes the Brothers come for the newborn sons but I'm not sure she knows much about WWs.  After all she thinks Small Paul has come after her son and he's an ice zombie. So she knows some of the tales; but given that Othor was  sent specifically for Mormont:  it's just as likely that Small Paul was sent to stop Sam.  He's the one carrying the lethal dragonglass back to the Wall. 

.  

Sorry it took me so long to reply you know my mind was spinning with questions!   LynnS, I wonder what it could mean if Crasters women did go underground.  They didn't seem totally happy with the way they left their home.  Most of use anticipate Bran will make use of the underground tunnels and rivers to get away from BR's cave.   You've got me imagining the women capturing Bran and trying to give him over to the Others.    What stops that train from derailing is Gilly not wanting to lose her baby.  Her sweet mother's love was focused on the living human being as opposed to some distant sacrifice.  She really did everything she could to keep that boy which sounds nothing like the talk she was given about the well, unopposable sacrificing.  How exactly did Craster women feel about the sacrifices?   

Like you I believe places are significant here.  Beyond the Wall we've got far fewer places to zoom in on.    Whitetree is as good a place as any for ancient arcane knowledge to be stored and passed generation to generation.  Make Craster's back story pregnant with just the worst possibilities.   

My head's going to explode with crazy ideas about the Others.  

[TheLastWolf]

The Others are feminists

Spoiler

Couldn't resist the lame semi-wit CF, forgive me, and its good to be back and see you ol' friends post new stuff!