UK Politics: Russian Adventures in Toryland

[Spockydog]

nvm

 

 

 

[polishgenius]

HoI, mate, bigotry is evil by definition, but I'm glad to know you're in support of it existing.

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, polishgenius said:

HoI, mate, bigotry is evil by definition, but I'm glad to know you're in support of it existing.

I mean we can't really discuss it on these forums, but if you want to DM me about where said bigotry is then you are welcome. 

[polishgenius]

We can, in fact, discuss it on these forums. I do not think I'd be stopped from saying that the bigotry lies in Glinner, and Rowling, and their allies, from equating trans women to rapists and molesters who want to get into women's bathrooms to commit crimes, or from suggesting there is some kind of campaign to push kids to transition when they're not trans (I'm not sure Glinner has been on this angle so much, but Rowling is heavy on it now and it's all the same movement). You would  find it difficult to claim they're not bigotry without censure or at least heavy negative response, but that's no different from someone claiming the don't say gay bill isn't homophobic.  

[Week]

32 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Oh and here is someone who is happy to support racism and xenophobia as long as it’s the right kind. Good timing 

Weird that you don't defend me then - that's kind of your MO. 

[Heartofice]

12 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

We can, in fact, discuss it on these forums. I do not think I'd be stopped from saying that the bigotry lies in Glinner, and Rowling, and their allies, from equating trans women to rapists and molesters who want to get into women's bathrooms to commit crimes, or from suggesting there is some kind of campaign to push kids to transition when they're not trans (I'm not sure Glinner has been on this angle so much, but Rowling is heavy on it now and it's all the same movement). You would  find it difficult to claim they're not bigotry without censure or at least heavy negative response, but that's no different from someone claiming the don't say gay bill isn't homophobic.  

I DM’d you.

 

4 minutes ago, Week said:

Weird that you don't defend me then - that's kind of your MO. 

Oh so you admit it then.

[A wilding]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Again, here is the key point. You believe his beliefs are evil. That is why you are struggling here. 

This really goes to the heart of pretty much all of these conversations. It's not that someone has a different opinion on a topic, its that they are 'evil' (insert any number of insults). 

Surely it is not a question of whether his beliefs are "evil", and especially not whether he is "evil". The question is whether his actions are. Beliefs are hard to judge. Actions can be objectively measured.

And his actions have surely crossed the line. Though in my personal view he has issues, and his performative victimhood is part of that.

 

[Liffguard]

If a person suffers negative consequences brought upon themselves as a direct result of doing bad things, that might be sad, but it is not exactly unfair or unjust.

If a person suffered negative consequences as a direct result of doing good things, that would be unfair and unjust.

Linehan's life didn't just randomly fall apart one day. He consciously destroyed it himself. I have a certain measure of sympathy for him - he is clearly not well, and needs professional help - but I have more sympathy for the people he attacks, and no one has any obligation to maintain personal or professional relationships with him.

[DaveSumm]

29 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

If a person suffers negative consequences brought upon themselves as a direct result of doing bad things, that might be sad, but it is not exactly unfair or unjust.

Let’s not forget HoI was only ever responding to “Graham Linehan LOL”. Nobody’s gone to bat for his actual beliefs or actions.

[Week]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

Let’s not forget HoI was only ever responding to “Graham Linehan LOL”. Nobody’s gone to bat for his actual beliefs or actions.

It's been noted, the message that it is important to keep the feelings of transphobes and bigots centered has been received and therein the disagreement lies.

[DMC]

I like how people using basic common sense to discern who is deserving of sympathy and who is not is now being peddled as political hypocrisy.

[Werthead]

5 hours ago, polishgenius said:

But in any case you appear to be struggling with the idea of someone getting hounded for evil beliefs being a different scenario for someone getting hounded for unevil beliefs. Like yes if Owen Jones fell apart as bad as Linehan has I would disapprove of his behaviour (like I say, I don't particularly like him as it is), but it would nonetheless be sad rather than funny because he'd not be falling apart in aid of discrimination. 

I'm not sure why hypotheticals are brought up when we have actual examples to draw on.

For example, Joss Whedon was seen as a very progressive, pro-feminist, pro-LGBT writer and figure, an inspiration to millions of people with an enormous platform. When he turned out to be a sexist hypocrite using his position and status to prey on young and vulnerable women whilst simultaneously proclaiming his female-friendly credentials, he was kicked to the curb immediately by most of his own fanbase and has effectively lost his entire career as a result of his actions. His prior political allegiance was immaterial. Spacey and Weinstein were also left-leaning Democrats and were dumped by their own political bedfellows immediately.

[The Anti-Targ]

I don't really get why it's hypocrisy to be sympathetic towards someone you like who suffers a self-inflicted crisis in their personal life and to feel schadenfruede when someone you don't like suffers a similar self-inflicted crisis. That just seems like the default nature of humans, an understandable response to a sense of karmic justice. If one was to be a true Christian and loved thine enemy then one would feel sympathy for the suffering of one's enemy while still working hard to oppose their efforts and ideals. But that does not seem to be the operating moral standard expected to anyone, even among most Christians.

[mormont]

6 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Let’s not forget HoI was only ever responding to “Graham Linehan LOL”. Nobody’s gone to bat for his actual beliefs or actions.

Technically this is true. However, HoI has made several posts over the last couple of days indicating that he shares Linehan's beliefs and that it isn't that he doesn't want to go to bat for them, he just doesn't feel able to. At the very least, he is suggesting that Linehan's beliefs are not bigotry in his eyes:

8 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I mean we can't really discuss it on these forums, but if you want to DM me about where said bigotry is then you are welcome. 

[polishgenius]

Every time I think she couldn't be more dodgy...

[Spockydog]

Why is Patel taking money from an oil trader?

Why were UK energy price rises capped at 54%, while French citizens saw their bills rise by just 4%?

Hmmmm.....

 

 

[Heartofice]

6 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Why is Patel taking money from an oil trader?

Why were UK energy price rises capped at 54%, while French citizens saw their bills rise by just 4%?

Hmmmm.....

 

 

You should ask yourself a couple of questions before wandering off down a conspiracy plug hole

Firstly, what role does Patel have in shaping domestic energy policy, specifically the price cap? 
 

Secondly, how do you think the price cap is calculated? Do you think the calculation has changed recently?

[Spockydog]

38 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

You should ask yourself a couple of questions before wandering off down a conspiracy plug hole

Firstly, what role does Patel have in shaping domestic energy policy, specifically the price cap? 
 

Secondly, how do you think the price cap is calculated? Do you think the calculation has changed recently?

Let's turn that around, shall well.

As you said, she has no role in domestic energy policy. So why is she taking £100k, more than her earnings as an MP, from an oil trader who is currently profiteering out of the energy crisis, as well as the war in Ukraine? A guy who has never before donated a political penny?

In case you've forgot, Patel has a long and grubby history of dodgy dealings and unauthorized, illegal ministerial escapades. 

So this has red flags all over it.

Now, you'll probably handwave this away. As you do everything else. But perhaps if you and your ilk actually tried thinking for yourselves, our country wouldn't be in the state it is today. Time after time, we have seen unequivocal evidence of Tory incompetence and corruption, yet you still think they are fit to lead us and, like a sickly dog going back to its own vomit, will vote for them again in two years time.

And as for the price cap calculation, yes it has changed. However, France seem perfectly willing and able to help its citizens by capping the rise at 4%. This is essentially a £8.4bn windfall tax on EDF, something the Tories are steadfastly refusing to contemplate, while people are being forced to choose between eating or freezing to death.

Now, remind me what the Tories are currently doing to help the British people.

[Heartofice]

 

[Spockydog]

And....?

You really want to get into a conversation about how the Tories continually prioritize the interests of oil companies and their shareholders over those of its own citizens?

As I asked before, what are the Tories actually doing to help British citizens?

This, against the backdrop of just a 4% rise for French citizens.