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Unanswered Questions in Dance of the Dragons


EggBlue

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  •  What were Larys Strong's motivations?
  • Why did Cole and Aemond separate ways after Harrenhall?
  • What was the relationship between Daemon and Nettles?
  • Why did Mysaria and Daemon's alliance fell apart?
  • Who killed Helaena ,if it wasn't suicide? and Why then , if it was?

 

ok, let's discuss..

 

 

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16 minutes ago, EggBlue said:
  •  What were Larys Strong's motivations?
  • Why did Cole and Aemond separate ways after Harrenhall?
  • What was the relationship between Daemon and Nettles?
  • Why did Mysaria and Daemon's alliance fell apart?
  • Who killed Helaena ,if it wasn't suicide? and Why then , if it was?

 

ok, let's discuss..

 

 

Oh, who can say what Larys Strong's motivations were? He's basically Varys.

Cole was the smart one, and Aemond was an unstable moron with a dragon. I think that at some point, Cole decided Aemond was too leaky a vessel to put much hope in, and tried to salvage the situation on his own. Not that it helped him much.

I think Deamon and Nettles had a father/daughter dynamic. I would be dissapointed if they were lovers, because Nettles is such a cool badass, while Deamon is legitmately an awful human being.

I genuinely believe Helena killed herself. Watching her son be brutally murdered, after being forced into a twisted Sophie's Choice situation really did break her. I do not think she wanted to continue living after suffering through those atrocities. And I can think of no way for anyone to gain from killing her. It seems to me that her death was swept under the rug as much as possible, which implies her death was an inconveniance, not something that was planned for. So yeah, Helena probably committed suicide.

That's my take, anyway.

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52 minutes ago, EggBlue said:
  •  What were Larys Strong's motivations?

Pretty much impossible to say, but it seems that his ultimate goal was to be the guy running the show behind the scenes. Trystane Truefyre, the crippled Aegon II, and the broken Aegon III were all very fine puppet/figurehead kings to his Bloodraven.

52 minutes ago, EggBlue said:
  • Why did Cole and Aemond separate ways after Harrenhall?

Pretty much no idea, but I guess the speculation about Alys Rivers might play a role there. She had her own plans for Aemond, so she may have driven a wedge between him and Cole. But basically they didn't separate as such - Aemond decided to abandon Cole and the army and there was nothing they could do to stop him.

52 minutes ago, EggBlue said:
  • What was the relationship between Daemon and Nettles?

Pretty sure they are father and daughter. And that is also why Mysaria turned against Daemon. In their youth Mysaria was pregnant by Daemon and she lost their child because Daemon gave in to Viserys' demands and took the dragon egg back and sent her back to Lys on a ship.

We can assume that Mysaria never forgot that. If she found out/realized that Nettles was another bastard of Daemon's, one he decided to treat now much, much better than their love child ... then this could provide her with sufficient motivation to turn Rhaenyra against Nettles.

One could imagine a very unpleasant conversation between Mysaria and Daemon before the latter left for Maidenpool with Nettles - him telling her about Nettles or her confronting him about the fact that the girl was his daughter. Him either telling her how much it meant to him that he has another child now or her realizing that Daemon loved this child of his more than anybody else.

And then, of course, he could have ended their affair for good when he left for Maidenpool. In fact, that he did leave court with Nettles to hunt Aemond in the first place might actually imply that since it could mean Mysaria was no longer the priority she was while he was at court and shared her bed rather than that of Rhaenyra.

52 minutes ago, EggBlue said:
  • Who killed Helaena ,if it wasn't suicide? and Why then , if it was?

It is almost certain that this was indeed suicide, although it might have been a suicide that was triggered by mental/psychological torture. The idea that Mysaria may have visted to tell her about Maelor's cruel fate sounds like something that may have happened. It could help explain why Helaena killed herself at that time rather than at another time. Considering Helaena's state of mind and the fact that she was always kept in her cell/apartments in Maegor's Holdfast (apparently the same chambers Aegon II and Alicent put her in after Blood and Cheese destroyed her sanity) it is actually not that unlikely that the news about Maelor only reached her ears if somebody visited her and told her directly and repeatedly. Unlike Alicent, Helaena apparently never attended Rhaenyra's court sessions and audiences as a prisoner ... there isn't even a report that the Blacks dragged her out of her chambers to kneel in front of the Iron Throne when Rhaenyra took KL.

Rhaenyra herself is not likely to have commanded or condoned the mental torture of Helaena, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The woman Rhaenyra may have murdered or executed was Alicent - and since she was spared, it makes no sense to assume that Helaena was ever in any real danger from her.

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22 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Oh, who can say what Larys Strong's motivations were? He's basically Varys.

to Varys's credit , he apparently had always had the Perfect Prince Project . I see Larys as Littlefinger+Varys :) 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Pretty much impossible to say, but it seems that his ultimate goal was to be the guy running the show behind the scenes. Trystane Truefyre, the crippled Aegon II, and the broken Aegon III were all very fine puppet/figurehead kings to his Bloodraven.

agreed . however , it's at the beginning that I can't see what he was planning to do. well , not quite the beginning ; obviously he didn't want to end up as Beesbury in the Green Council meeting . but why didn't he switch to Rhaenyra after she took the city? for all he knew , Aegon would have turned back into the un-puppet brainless douche as soon as his burns healed . 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Pretty much no idea, but I guess the speculation about Alys Rivers might play a role there. She had her own plans for Aemond, so she may have driven a wedge between him and Cole. But basically they didn't separate as such - Aemond decided to abandon Cole and the army and there was nothing they could do to stop him.

yes , I think Alys's traces is all over that . I think she had Aemond abandon Cole and the army ( they wouldn't have been crushed if only they had Vaegar)  . it's pretty hard to guess to what end . though, I wonder if it had something to do with battle above God's Eye . was that some sort of sacrifice for whatever Alys wanted? two Targs and two dragons?:dunno:

22 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I think Deamon and Nettles had a father/daughter dynamic. I would be dissapointed if they were lovers, because Nettles is such a cool badass, while Deamon is legitmately an awful human being.

I completely agree , nothing would disappoint me more in the show than seeing Daemon&Nettles as a romantic couple. besides, Nettles's age is perfect to be Daemon's daughter from his adventures in Stepstones.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Pretty sure they are father and daughter. And that is also why Mysaria turned against Daemon. In their youth Mysaria was pregnant by Daemon and she lost their child because Daemon gave in to Viserys' demands and took the dragon egg back and sent her back to Lys on a ship.

We can assume that Mysaria never forgot that. If she found out/realized that Nettles was another bastard of Daemon's, one he decided to treat now much, much better than their love child ... then this could provide her with sufficient motivation to turn Rhaenyra against Nettles.

One could imagine a very unpleasant conversation between Mysaria and Daemon before the latter left for Maidenpool with Nettles - him telling her about Nettles or her confronting him about the fact that the girl was his daughter. Him either telling her how much it meant to him that he has another child now or her realizing that Daemon loved this child of his more than anybody else.

And then, of course, he could have ended their affair for good when he left for Maidenpool. In fact, that he did leave court with Nettles to hunt Aemond in the first place might actually imply that since it could mean Mysaria was no longer the priority she was while he was at court and shared her bed rather than that of Rhaenyra.

sounds about right . 

I still don't understand why Rhaenyra overlooked their affair:/ any idea?

22 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I genuinely believe Helena killed herself. Watching her son be brutally murdered, after being forced into a twisted Sophie's Choice situation really did break her. I do not think she wanted to continue living after suffering through those atrocities. And I can think of no way for anyone to gain from killing her. It seems to me that her death was swept under the rug as much as possible, which implies her death was an inconveniance, not something that was planned for. So yeah, Helena probably committed suicide.

 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is almost certain that this was indeed suicide, although it might have been a suicide that was triggered by mental/psychological torture. The idea that Mysaria may have visted to tell her about Maelor's cruel fate sounds like something that may have happened. It could help explain why Helaena killed herself at that time rather than at another time. Considering Helaena's state of mind and the fact that she was always kept in her cell/apartments in Maegor's Holdfast (apparently the same chambers Aegon II and Alicent put her in after Blood and Cheese destroyed her sanity) it is actually not that unlikely that the news about Maelor only reached her ears if somebody visited her and told her directly and repeatedly. Unlike Alicent, Helaena apparently never attended Rhaenyra's court sessions and audiences as a prisoner ... there isn't even a report that the Blacks dragged her out of her chambers to kneel in front of the Iron Throne when Rhaenyra took KL.

Rhaenyra herself is not likely to have commanded or condoned the mental torture of Helaena, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The woman Rhaenyra may have murdered or executed was Alicent - and since she was spared, it makes no sense to assume that Helaena was ever in any real danger from her.

I agree that Helaena must have taken her own life and that Rhaenyra had nothing to do with it . the idea that she was triggered into it by psychological torture seems to have been what happened and I think it's heavily implied. although , when it comes to Mysaria's role in the affair , I can't see any motivation. for all we know of Mysaria , she wasn't a Tyanna of Tower( who ,as evil as she was, had reasons for doing what she did) ; she also didn't have any personal issue with the broken woman Heleana was. the timing of that incident is quite interesting . oddly enough , it was the Greens who benefited in Helaena's death. over night , she became a martyr , the story of her children were repeated , Rhaenyra became the ultimate villain in the small folk's eyes and Aegon II was free to wed again and produce new princes with a sane woman . that night the riot happened , the next day killing of the dragons and the next morning Rhaenyra fled . we know Larys was behind the rumors about Helaena's death . he might simply had taken advantage in the situation , but what if he was behind her death itself? Eustace( who most definitely hates the harlot) thinks Mysaria chose that day to inform Helaena of her son's death. but what if it was Larys behind that?

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2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

agreed . however , it's at the beginning that I can't see what he was planning to do. well , not quite the beginning ; obviously he didn't want to end up as Beesbury in the Green Council meeting . but why didn't he switch to Rhaenyra after she took the city? for all he knew , Aegon would have turned back into the un-puppet brainless douche as soon as his burns healed .

The problem here simply is that George failed to give us more information/background on Larys' relationship with both the Greens and the Blacks prior to the beginning of the war.

It is quite clear that Larys was no loyal Green - both the Truefyre adventure as well as him masterminding the murder of Aegon II prove that - and thus the question why he never actually joined the Blacks is very odd. He is the main suspect for Daemon's source on the Green Council and in the wake of Aemond's atrocities at Harrenhal there is actually no chance that Larys should remain with the Greens.

It seems also be pretty clear that he lied through his teeth with his blood oath suggestion. He didn't say anything before that suggestion, very much indicating he didn't show his true colors at all ... and only used his suggestion to give the others the impression that he was on Aegon's side.

Then ... he did arrange for the flight of Aegon and his children before the atrocities happened. But that still doesn't explain why he didn't reveal himself to Rhaenyra and won her favor by delivering Aegon II and his children to her. He knew where they had gone, after all.

The overall political situation - meaning the chance that the Green dragons might attack and destroy KL after First Tumbleton - could have contributed to his decision to arrange the riots since the city could likely be spared that fate if Rhaenyra was deposed or forced to leave the city before the Hightower army arrived at KL.

Overall, the character would have worked better if George had bothered giving us hints how he got along with the various Blacks and Greens and Rhaenyra, Daemon, and Alicent specifically ... not to mention his relationship with his father and elder brother or his take on the story that Rhaenyra's elder sons were actually his nephews.

In light of all that it is very odd that Larys seemed to have no interest in the boys nor that the Greens would actually allow this guy to serve as Master of Whisperer when they believed Rhaenyra's immediate heirs were actually closely related to him.

Aemond decides to distrust the Strongs because of this ... but why Alicent and Otto and Aegon II and the other Greens trusted him earlier is not really explained.

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

yes , I think Alys's traces is all over that . I think she had Aemond abandon Cole and the army ( they wouldn't have been crushed if only they had Vaegar)  . it's pretty hard to guess to what end . though, I wonder if it had something to do with battle above God's Eye . was that some sort of sacrifice for whatever Alys wanted? two Targs and two dragons?:dunno:

No idea, but the fact that Aemond first left Alys back at Harrenhal only to save her later when Lady Frey had taken the castle further complicates this issue.

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I completely agree , nothing would disappoint me more in the show than seeing Daemon&Nettles as a romantic couple. besides, Nettles's age is perfect to be Daemon's daughter from his adventures in Stepstones.

Oh, I guess they could also be lovers in addition to being father and son ... but I expect that would be too much incest for the show ;-).

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I still don't understand why Rhaenyra overlooked their affair:/ any idea?

Because she actually loved Daemon and was willing to turn a blind eye to that particular affair.

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I agree that Helaena must have taken her own life and that Rhaenyra had nothing to do with it . the idea that she was triggered into it by psychological torture seems to have been what happened and I think it's heavily implied. although , when it comes to Mysaria's role in the affair , I can't see any motivation. for all we know of Mysaria , she wasn't a Tyanna of Tower( who ,as evil as she was, had reasons for doing what she did) ; she also didn't have any personal issue with the broken woman Heleana was. the timing of that incident is quite interesting . oddly enough , it was the Greens who benefited in Helaena's death. over night , she became a martyr , the story of her children were repeated , Rhaenyra became the ultimate villain in the small folk's eyes and Aegon II was free to wed again and produce new princes with a sane woman . that night the riot happened , the next day killing of the dragons and the next morning Rhaenyra fled . we know Larys was behind the rumors about Helaena's death . he might simply had taken advantage in the situation , but what if he was behind her death itself? Eustace( who most definitely hates the harlot) thinks Mysaria chose that day to inform Helaena of her son's death. but what if it was Larys behind that?

He certainly could also have done something like that ... but Mysaria turning Rhaenyra against Nettles was also a very vile thing to do, something that clearly undermined her war effort, her cause in general, and even her marriage.

As we know, the Mootons actually considered murdering both Nettles and Daemon, and one could imagine that this was something Mysaria may have hoped would happen. If our assumption that Mysaria knew that Daemon was Nettles' father then Nettles' execution would most definitely have destroyed Rhaenyra and Daemon's marriage ... and that could have had devastating repercussions.

Mysaria would have known that and she clearly didn't care. All she seemed to care about there was to hurt Daemon. So we could certainly also see her torturing Helaena ... although we have no idea what her motives would have been there.

Larys couldn't really have reached Helaena in Maegor's Holdfast. There are no secret tunnels in the walls of that part of the castle. Mysaria had freedom of the castle while Larys would have to act through agents among Rhaenyra's guardsmen and servants (and only very few of them would have had access to Helaena's chambers). Thus the idea that Mysaria could reach her is more likely than the idea that Larys may have done that.

I personally like the idea that Mysaria may have her own ties to House Targaryen considering her showing up in Targaryen colors when summoned by Rhaenyra to be questioned about Nettles. Being from Lys, she could have been the firstborn child of Saera. That could give her an ulterior motive to hurt other Targaryen women.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I guess they could also be lovers in addition to being father and son ... but I expect that would be too much incest for the show ;-).

dude! that is also too much incest for the books!:P

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Because she actually loved Daemon and was willing to turn a blind eye to that particular affair.

fair enough

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He certainly could also have done something like that ... but Mysaria turning Rhaenyra against Nettles was also a very vile thing to do, something that clearly undermined her war effort, her cause in general, and even her marriage.

As we know, the Mootons actually considered murdering both Nettles and Daemon, and one could imagine that this was something Mysaria may have hoped would happen. If our assumption that Mysaria knew that Daemon was Nettles' father then Nettles' execution would most definitely have destroyed Rhaenyra and Daemon's marriage ... and that could have had devastating repercussions.

Mysaria would have known that and she clearly didn't care. All she seemed to care about there was to hurt Daemon. So we could certainly also see her torturing Helaena ... although we have no idea what her motives would have been there.

Larys couldn't really have reached Helaena in Maegor's Holdfast. There are no secret tunnels in the walls of that part of the castle. Mysaria had freedom of the castle while Larys would have to act through agents among Rhaenyra's guardsmen and servants (and only very few of them would have had access to Helaena's chambers). Thus the idea that Mysaria could reach her is more likely than the idea that Larys may have done that.

I absolutely agree that Mysaria had the better access and chance to be behind that. however, the lack of motivation gives me pause . her accusation of Nettles was a nasty work ; yet, we could agree that she had a clear personal motivation in that : getting back at Daemon for whatever that had gone between them. her relationship with Rhaenyra , though , isn't the usual mistress-wife situation . I dare say she served her queen well enough until the moment she told on Nettles. the idea of her damaging Rhaenyra's picture just to hurt Daemon in a way doesn't have much weigh , in my view. especially that her own status is secured only in Rhaenyra's regime .   

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I personally like the idea that Mysaria may have her own ties to House Targaryen considering her showing up in Targaryen colors when summoned by Rhaenyra to be questioned about Nettles. Being from Lys, she could have been the firstborn child of Saera. That could give her an ulterior motive to hurt other Targaryen women.

ooh , that's a good theory and completely plausible .a Targaryen bastard could have enough jealousy and resentment for a trueborn Targaryen woman, thinking how different her life is for being born out of wedlock. nice catch with the color of her cloak . although , I guess with that logic, Mance Raider could have ties to Targaryens too . thinking back at it , Saera left Lys as a rich woman and later became so wealthy and powerful that saw nothing in pressing her claim in Great Council . so, I think it's not that logical for her daughter to end up pursuing prostitution and in King's Landing of all places.

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8 hours ago, EggBlue said:

dude! that is also too much incest for the books!:P

Ah, well, they could have fallen in love before they knew they were father and daughter ... or Daemon just didn't care. Aegon IV may have also had an affair with one of his daughters.

8 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I absolutely agree that Mysaria had the better access and chance to be behind that. however, the lack of motivation gives me pause . her accusation of Nettles was a nasty work ; yet, we could agree that she had a clear personal motivation in that : getting back at Daemon for whatever that had gone between them. her relationship with Rhaenyra , though , isn't the usual mistress-wife situation . I dare say she served her queen well enough until the moment she told on Nettles. the idea of her damaging Rhaenyra's picture just to hurt Daemon in a way doesn't have much weigh , in my view. especially that her own status is secured only in Rhaenyra's regime .

Mysaria's actions don't make a lot of sense in any case, nor does her role at Rhaenyra's court after Daemon left with Nettles. I mean, for all we know Mysaria was Daemon's girl, and while it makes sense that Rhaenyra would turn a blind eye to her affair with Daemon for Daemon's sake ... it is odd that she was one of the closest advisers and confidants in Daemon's absence. If Rhaenyra knew about the rekindled affair - as Gyldayn and his sources claim she did - then it would make more sense for her to quietly tolerate the affair ... but not exactly showering Mysaria with favors or trusting her.

Like with Larys Strong, this whole thing would have made more sense if Rhaenyra and Mysaria had had their own story, a connection explaining why Rhaenyra thought she could trust Mysaria despite the fact that she also had an affair with Daemon.

Rhaenyra calling on Mysaria for intel on Nettles and her then exploding when Mysaria tells her that Nettles has an affair with Daemon is weird on a lot of levels. Why would she trust a woman on that who is not just a former mistress of Daemon's but his current mistress according to the account Gyldayn gave us? Are we supposed to assume that Rhaenyra is so stupid she would not view Mysaria as a rival for Daemon's affections, meaning she might lie about Nettles because she was jealous of her? And why would Rhaenyra get so angry about Nettles for fucking Daemon when Mysaria apparently also fucked Daemon a short while ago with Rhaenyra apparently turning a blind eye to it? Yes, Nettles is of lower birth than Mysaria, but not that much - Mysaria is a former whore and known criminal. Both women served her reasonably well during the war - Mysaria with Blood and Cheese and whatever role she played in securing the allegiance of the Goldcloaks and Nettles fought for Rhaenyra in the Gullet and when they took KL - so why would she forget all that because one of those ill-reputed women threw dirt at the other?

Then later we do have Mysaria correctly assessing the dangers the riots posed and we have her stop the Velaryon loyalists from breaking out Corlys - both indicating she did her best to give Rhaenyra sound advice/help her through that crisis.

But when Rhaenyra leaves the capital Mysaria stays behind. Why is that? It is almost as weird as Rhaenyra not taking Alicent or Tyland Lannister with her (or her not at least executing them before she left).

If we go back to the original question then it turns out that Mysaria is such mysterious - or rather weirdly behaving - character, that the idea she might just be tormenting Helaena for 'reasons' isn't exactly *that* mysterious.

8 hours ago, EggBlue said:

ooh , that's a good theory and completely plausible .a Targaryen bastard could have enough jealousy and resentment for a trueborn Targaryen woman, thinking how different her life is for being born out of wedlock. nice catch with the color of her cloak . although , I guess with that logic, Mance Raider could have ties to Targaryens too . thinking back at it , Saera left Lys as a rich woman and later became so wealthy and powerful that saw nothing in pressing her claim in Great Council . so, I think it's not that logical for her daughter to end up pursuing prostitution and in King's Landing of all places.

Well, for the numbers to add up we would have to assume that Mysaria was Saera's firstborn child - she is already a dancer in KL in the early 100s when Daemon becomes Lord Commander of the City Watch. We know that Saera got passage on a ship to Lys, and it is plausible enough that she first became a prostitute to secure that passage, possibly as the mistress of the ship's captain. That could have been the point where she first got pregnant. As she subsequently spent time in the pleasure gardens of Lys - apparently not so much as a slave but an independent whore whose trade turned her into a wealthy woman - it would also make sense that she didn't bother with any children she may have had during that time. She was a psychopath, so it would very much fit her character if she sold whatever children she had into slavery immediately after they were born. If Mysaria was such a daughter she could have easily grown up at a very bad place despite the fact that Saera Targaryen was her mother.

It also seems as if the three bastards of Saera who showed up at the Great Council were there because their fathers or their paternal families sponsored their claims. One was the bastard of a Triarch of Volantis, and we can assume that the other two were also the sons of wealthy Volantene noblemen who could afford to send them all the way to Westeros (Saera herself staying behind indicates she didn't bother either with her sons nor their or her own claim to the Iron Throne). We should also assume that Saera learned to avoid pregnancies once she established herself as a prostitute in Lys - meaning in our hypothetical scenario Mysaria would be her first and the only child she had in Lys whilst she worked at the pleasure gardens. The sons she had in Volantis she wouldn't have had as a prostitute but as a wealthy independent woman who entered into inclusive companionship deals with wealthy Volantenes or else it wouldn't be plausible that those sons would have been acknowledged by their respective fathers. Not to mention that Saera still working as a whore full-time would take care that her trade wouldn't be interrupted by an unwanted pregnancy.

In fact, if we think about Saera's character and trade her having at least three sons doesn't make much sense in context - neither indicates she would have ever wanted to have children or risk her life and health in a pregnancy. Once she was wealthy enough, she would have ensured she never got pregnant again.

Prior to FaB the idea that Saera may have had any children had a very low priority on my list.

Addendum:

Strictly speaking, one could assume that one or even two of the known bastard sons of Saera could have been born in Lys - if we assume she entered into exclusive deals with wealthy patrons while working there ... deals which included her getting pregnant and giving them children. We would assume that the Triarch's bastard was both conceived and born after Saera moved to Volantis, but even that's not necessarily confirmed (the Triarch could have visted Lys and his affair with Saera there could have led to her moving to Volantis with him).

But in general we should assume that while Saera still worked as a whore in the pleasure gardens it would have been very bad for her trade to get pregnant and very difficult/unlikely for her patrons to acknowledge any children they might have fathered on her. Certainly not impossible as folks could have gotten so besotted with her that they would even acknowledge children as theirs they could not be sure were theirs ... but all that isn't very likely.

Not to mention that Saera's original stick to entice her patrons - presenting herself in her Oldtown novice garb and pretending to be a fallen novice of the Faith - wouldn't fit well with a visibly pregnant woman.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ah, well, they could have fallen in love before they knew they were father and daughter ... or Daemon just didn't care. Aegon IV may have also had an affair with one of his daughters.

don't think so.. the only way I can see Daemon realizing about his daughter is that she tells him. she must have also known about her parentage before attempting to ride a dragon and later used that as proof of being a Targaryen bastard. so in any case Nettles wouldn't fall in love with her dad unaware of their relation! 

by the way , wasn't there also a theory about Aegon IV being with his mom? ! I hadn't heard about the daughter one though. how does that go? 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Mysaria's actions don't make a lot of sense in any case, nor does her role at Rhaenyra's court after Daemon left with Nettles. I mean, for all we know Mysaria was Daemon's girl, and while it makes sense that Rhaenyra would turn a blind eye to her affair with Daemon for Daemon's sake ... it is odd that she was one of the closest advisers and confidants in Daemon's absence. If Rhaenyra knew about the rekindled affair - as Gyldayn and his sources claim she did - then it would make more sense for her to quietly tolerate the affair ... but not exactly showering Mysaria with favors or trusting her.

not really , they don't . but I still think the Helaena situation seems too much for her . as far as we know , Misery had no personal issue with Helaena . however , if she had for some reason triggered Helaena's suicide , it would be a good reason for Rhaenyra to leave her behind.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Like with Larys Strong, this whole thing would have made more sense if Rhaenyra and Mysaria had had their own story, a connection explaining why Rhaenyra thought she could trust Mysaria despite the fact that she also had an affair with Daemon.

I agree . Martin could have certainly written a bit more about these characters instead of every single hardship during regency . what bugs me , is that being an intelligent perfectionist writer , he probably has worked out character motivations for himself ; he just likes to be ambiguous , I suppose! :P

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenyra calling on Mysaria for intel on Nettles and her then exploding when Mysaria tells her that Nettles has an affair with Daemon is weird on a lot of levels. Why would she trust a woman on that who is not just a former mistress of Daemon's but his current mistress according to the account Gyldayn gave us? Are we supposed to assume that Rhaenyra is so stupid she would not view Mysaria as a rival for Daemon's affections, meaning she might lie about Nettles because she was jealous of her? And why would Rhaenyra get so angry about Nettles for fucking Daemon when Mysaria apparently also fucked Daemon a short while ago with Rhaenyra apparently turning a blind eye to it? Yes, Nettles is of lower birth than Mysaria, but not that much - Mysaria is a former whore and known criminal. Both women served her reasonably well during the war - Mysaria with Blood and Cheese and whatever role she played in securing the allegiance of the Goldcloaks and Nettles fought for Rhaenyra in the Gullet and when they took KL - so why would she forget all that because one of those ill-reputed women threw dirt at the other?

exactly . that's what made me a bit suspicious of Daemon and Mysaria's romance in the Red Keep . if we could assume that Daemon didn't renew his relationship with Mysaria on the ground of her being a nobody and him not wanting to pursue his old habits ; then , we could assume that Mysaria had indeed thought Nettles/Daemon relationship to be romantic and thus had simply wanted revenge for that .

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Then later we do have Mysaria correctly assessing the dangers the riots posed and we have her stop the Velaryon loyalists from breaking out Corlys - both indicating she did her best to give Rhaenyra sound advice/help her through that crisis.

But when Rhaenyra leaves the capital Mysaria stays behind. Why is that? It is almost as weird as Rhaenyra not taking Alicent or Tyland Lannister with her (or her not at least executing them before she left).

If we go back to the original question then it turns out that Mysaria is such mysterious - or rather weirdly behaving - character, that the idea she might just be tormenting Helaena for 'reasons' isn't exactly *that* mysterious.

not mysterious . but far fetched . yet, George has put it right there in the book:bang:

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, for the numbers to add up we would have to assume that Mysaria was Saera's firstborn child - she is already a dancer in KL in the early 100s when Daemon becomes Lord Commander of the City Watch. We know that Saera got passage on a ship to Lys, and it is plausible enough that she first became a prostitute to secure that passage, possibly as the mistress of the ship's captain. That could have been the point where she first got pregnant. As she subsequently spent time in the pleasure gardens of Lys - apparently not so much as a slave but an independent whore whose trade turned her into a wealthy woman - it would also make sense that she didn't bother with any children she may have had during that time. She was a psychopath, so it would very much fit her character if she sold whatever children she had into slavery immediately after they were born. If Mysaria was such a daughter she could have easily grown up at a very bad place despite the fact that Saera Targaryen was her mother.

It also seems as if the three bastards of Saera who showed up at the Great Council were there because their fathers or their paternal families sponsored their claims. One was the bastard of a Triarch of Volantis, and we can assume that the other two were also the sons of wealthy Volantene noblemen who could afford to send them all the way to Westeros (Saera herself staying behind indicates she didn't bother either with her sons nor their or her own claim to the Iron Throne). We should also assume that Saera learned to avoid pregnancies once she established herself as a prostitute in Lys - meaning in our hypothetical scenario Mysaria would be her first and the only child she had in Lys whilst she worked at the pleasure gardens. The sons she had in Volantis she wouldn't have had as a prostitute but as a wealthy independent woman who entered into inclusive companionship deals with wealthy Volantenes or else it wouldn't be plausible that those sons would have been acknowledged by their respective fathers. Not to mention that Saera still working as a whore full-time would take care that her trade wouldn't be interrupted by an unwanted pregnancy.

In fact, if we think about Saera's character and trade her having at least three sons doesn't make much sense in context - neither indicates she would have ever wanted to have children or risk her life and health in a pregnancy. Once she was wealthy enough, she would have ensured she never got pregnant again.

Prior to FaB the idea that Saera may have had any children had a very low priority on my list.

Addendum:

Strictly speaking, one could assume that one or even two of the known bastard sons of Saera could have been born in Lys - if we assume she entered into exclusive deals with wealthy patrons while working there ... deals which included her getting pregnant and giving them children. We would assume that the Triarch's bastard was both conceived and born after Saera moved to Volantis, but even that's not necessarily confirmed (the Triarch could have visted Lys and his affair with Saera there could have led to her moving to Volantis with him).

But in general we should assume that while Saera still worked as a whore in the pleasure gardens it would have been very bad for her trade to get pregnant and very difficult/unlikely for her patrons to acknowledge any children they might have fathered on her. Certainly not impossible as folks could have gotten so besotted with her that they would even acknowledge children as theirs they could not be sure were theirs ... but all that isn't very likely.

Not to mention that Saera's original stick to entice her patrons - presenting herself in her Oldtown novice garb and pretending to be a fallen novice of the Faith - wouldn't fit well with a visibly pregnant woman.

hmm.. that's well thought . although I'm not sure if Saera was intended as a psychopath (I think that's Vissera) , I wouldn't put it past her to abandon an unwanted child . thinking of how much clue there might be for this connection , I went back to see Mysaria's cloak description again . it was strangely well described . as far as I recall , there weren't that many occasions in F&B that we had description of clothes . there were the clothes in golden wedding , Daenaera's dress and dragon twins' in Maiden Ball , Aegon III's clothes and Green and Black gowns . still , that might simply be representative of bad omen/ dark angel / something like that instead of a Targaryen connection .

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9 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

don't think so.. the only way I can see Daemon realizing about his daughter is that she tells him. she must have also known about her parentage before attempting to ride a dragon and later used that as proof of being a Targaryen bastard. so in any case Nettles wouldn't fall in love with her dad unaware of their relation! 

Yes, of course, I don't consider it very likely, but I'm actually kind of annoyed that the Targaryens restricted the incest thing to sibling incest. Egyptian pharaohs also did marry their daughters, so if you take a page from their book, then take it whole.

Of course that didn't happen as often as sibling incest but it did happen.

9 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

by the way , wasn't there also a theory about Aegon IV being with his mom? ! I hadn't heard about the daughter one though. how does that go? 

Jeyne Lothston may have been Aegon's daughter. The idea that Aegon may have slept with his mother is the weird idea that Serenei of Lys was actually Larra Rogare. But that's clearly nonsense.

9 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

not really , they don't . but I still think the Helaena situation seems too much for her . as far as we know , Misery had no personal issue with Helaena . however , if she had for some reason triggered Helaena's suicide , it would be a good reason for Rhaenyra to leave her behind.

Perhaps, but it is not only Rhaenyra leaving her behind but Mysaria being stupid enough to stay. That makes her far stupider than she appears.

9 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I agree . Martin could have certainly written a bit more about these characters instead of every single hardship during regency . what bugs me , is that being an intelligent perfectionist writer , he probably has worked out character motivations for himself ; he just likes to be ambiguous , I suppose! :P

I certainly can assume he knows more about certain characters than he put into the books, but some things just appear as if he didn't really bother with a coherent plot or a convincing motivation.

9 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

exactly . that's what made me a bit suspicious of Daemon and Mysaria's romance in the Red Keep . if we could assume that Daemon didn't renew his relationship with Mysaria on the ground of her being a nobody and him not wanting to pursue his old habits ; then , we could assume that Mysaria had indeed thought Nettles/Daemon relationship to be romantic and thus had simply wanted revenge for that .

Daemon isn't exactly a very convincing character, either. I mean, why does he abandon Nettles after Maidenpool? Why not run away with her? Why not return to KL to take the government into his hands and force Rhaenyra to see the truth about Nettles? Why throw away his life to kill Daemon if he has at least one helpless son and two young daughters back at court?

The man was a complete failure. It is like Tywin decided on a whim to fight the Mountain in single combat to save Tyrion's life.

9 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

hmm.. that's well thought . although I'm not sure if Saera was intended as a psychopath (I think that's Vissera) , I wouldn't put it past her to abandon an unwanted child . thinking of how much clue there might be for this connection , I went back to see Mysaria's cloak description again . it was strangely well described . as far as I recall , there weren't that many occasions in F&B that we had description of clothes . there were the clothes in golden wedding , Daenaera's dress and dragon twins' in Maiden Ball , Aegon III's clothes and Green and Black gowns . still , that might simply be representative of bad omen/ dark angel / something like that instead of a Targaryen connection .

Saera is pretty much textbook case of a psychopath in her long rant. Not to mention her other behavior. She has no empathy, and follows only her own whims and desires and has no self-control. The idea that she would ever want or care for a child is very unlikely.

Viserra is also written as a kind of psychopath but her actual behavior indicates that's a misconception. If she truly was a cold and calculating evil bitch she wouldn't have gotten drunk while waiting for Baelon, nor would she have appeared to suffer as much as she did suffer from the stupid marriage her mother had arranged for her. Not to mention that her last party which got her killed indicates she was just a normal teenager. There was nothing weird or calculating there, either.

Mysaria's cloak is indeed described in far too much detail for that to not be kind of suspicious ... especially since she isn't actually a member of the royal family who are deserving of such descriptions in a book like that.

And the colors there are clearly the Targaryen colors. If George wanted it to be ominous he should have gone only with blood red, say, or only with pitch black, or perhaps better with ashen-grey and tell us that Mysaria was looking like corpse herself. Something along those lines.

Instead we pretty much get the impression that Mysaria is a Targaryen woman herself, advising the Targaryen queen. That is definitely not an accident.

The idea that she would be Saera's daughter is, of course, just conjecture, but I think the reason why this in the text is that George wanted to indicate something he decided Gyldayn and his sources didn't know or figure out. And that would be that Mysaria is more than just a Lysene whore who was the mistress of a Targaryen prince for a time. She could also be the bastard (descendant) of a different Targaryen.

In context we should also assume that Mysaria having a Targaryen background would also be something that would make her most attractive to Daemon.

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Do we really know that it was Queen R who wrote that letter to Manfryd Mooton? Or I suspect that letter was actually written by somebody else who wanted to cause problems to Her Majesty. So there is a possibility that queen did not actually wanted to kill Nettles.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, of course, I don't consider it very likely, but I'm actually kind of annoyed that the Targaryens restricted the incest thing to sibling incest. Egyptian pharaohs also did marry their daughters, so if you take a page from their book, then take it whole.

maybe George feared to cross that line . the one guy in the series who beds his daughters is one of the most loathed . besides, there's still the theory about Rhaegar and Rhaella , so, maybe George has adopted Egyptian customs in his books completely!

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jeyne Lothston may have been Aegon's daughter.

how so?

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Aegon may have slept with his mother is the weird idea that Serenei of Lys was actually Larra Rogare. But that's clearly nonsense.

oh , I fully agree.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Perhaps, but it is not only Rhaenyra leaving her behind but Mysaria being stupid enough to stay. That makes her far stupider than she appears.

well , Misarya did try to run away on her own 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I certainly can assume he knows more about certain characters than he put into the books, but some things just appear as if he didn't really bother with a coherent plot or a convincing motivation.

Mysaria and Larys are too important characters for him to just not bother about . but who knows?

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Daemon isn't exactly a very convincing character, either. I mean, why does he abandon Nettles after Maidenpool? Why not run away with her? Why not return to KL to take the government into his hands and force Rhaenyra to see the truth about Nettles? Why throw away his life to kill Daemon if he has at least one helpless son and two young daughters back at court?

The man was a complete failure. It is like Tywin decided on a whim to fight the Mountain in single combat to save Tyrion's life.

still Daemon is more convincing than some other characters . I read Daemon as something like Jaimie (rather than Tywin) : complex , spontaneous and maybe with some melancholy but a lot more calculating and ambitious ( two qualities that cannot be said about Jaimie . that is not to say the characters are alike, rather there is a room for misunderstanding in both characters) .

imagine Jaimie was written in a history book :  heir to the richest lord . successful squire . fights the outlaws . knighted by the most famous knight in the realm . fucks his sister . joins the kingsgaurd . disobeys his father. kills the king he should protect . cuckolds the other king he should protect . commits high treason with his own sister and queen by siring princes. is a total jerk to absolutely everyone . yet, as a one handed man jumps in bear pit to save some girl . what would you make of that? ... I mean , with all his worst reputations, Daemon has more good qualities to be included in a history book .

although , I find it bothersome that we don't have any scene with Daemon interacting with his kids . we also don't have much information about Daemon after his marriages to Laena and especially later to Rhaenyra . considering it's Daemon that sees an attack to Kings Landing by dragons unwise,  the Rogue Prince persona is completely gone at the beginning of the dance. a transition we didn't see at all . 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Saera is pretty much textbook case of a psychopath in her long rant. Not to mention her other behavior. She has no empathy, and follows only her own whims and desires and has no self-control. The idea that she would ever want or care for a child is very unlikely.

Viserra is also written as a kind of psychopath but her actual behavior indicates that's a misconception. If she truly was a cold and calculating evil bitch she wouldn't have gotten drunk while waiting for Baelon, nor would she have appeared to suffer as much as she did suffer from the stupid marriage her mother had arranged for her. Not to mention that her last party which got her killed indicates she was just a normal teenager. There was nothing weird or calculating there, either.

I don't know if Saera's a textbook psychopath or not but for some parts she sure seems like one. I meant that George may have intended for Vissera to be read as a psychopath with George's "good" queen wanting to get rid of her (something that just wasn't the case for all the reasons you mentioned above) and Saera to be read like an overindulgent emotionally-neglected girl with septon Barth's writings of her . in light of Saera's escape after a year and a half instead of a week or so, I viewed her as more of an angry arrogant spoiled girl who does anything to attract attention . George may have just dropped the ball with those two characters.  

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Mysaria's cloak is indeed described in far too much detail for that to not be kind of suspicious ... especially since she isn't actually a member of the royal family who are deserving of such descriptions in a book like that.

And the colors there are clearly the Targaryen colors. If George wanted it to be ominous he should have gone only with blood red, say, or only with pitch black, or perhaps better with ashen-grey and tell us that Mysaria was looking like corpse herself. Something along those lines.

Instead we pretty much get the impression that Mysaria is a Targaryen woman herself, advising the Targaryen queen. That is definitely not an accident.

The idea that she would be Saera's daughter is, of course, just conjecture, but I think the reason why this in the text is that George wanted to indicate something he decided Gyldayn and his sources didn't know or figure out. And that would be that Mysaria is more than just a Lysene whore who was the mistress of a Targaryen prince for a time. She could also be the bastard (descendant) of a different Targaryen.

interesting idea. though in that case George has gone too far into Gylidayn role and has forgotten that at the end of the day , he should put more clues for people to figure out his story:P... or arguably he's just a genius who has kept us talking about cloaks and clues! 

 

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10 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Do we really know that it was Queen R who wrote that letter to Manfryd Mooton? Or I suspect that letter was actually written by somebody else who wanted to cause problems to Her Majesty. So there is a possibility that queen did not actually wanted to kill Nettles.

well , we don't know that she didn't . at the very least we could be sure that she wanted Nettles arrested since that was the fate waiting for Addam . I read the passage again and some parts are credited to septon Eustace but since the rest of it wasn't credited to any of the unreliable chronicles , we have absolutely nothing to base our suspicions on . although, I must say , Rhaenyra's words about Nettles not being blood of dragon due to her looks doesn't actually sound like Rhaenyra who supposedly had three both-sided blood of the dragon sons who looked absolutely nothing like Valerians!   

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11 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Do we really know that it was Queen R who wrote that letter to Manfryd Mooton? Or I suspect that letter was actually written by somebody else who wanted to cause problems to Her Majesty. So there is a possibility that queen did not actually wanted to kill Nettles.

That was an idea I put forth prior to FaB. But now the lengthy deliberation they have about both Addam and Nettles and Mysaria's role in all that - as well as Daemon's conclusion that Mysaria is the one behind Rhaenyra's command - makes it very unlikely that Rhaenyra didn't write that letter.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

maybe George feared to cross that line . the one guy in the series who beds his daughters is one of the most loathed . besides, there's still the theory about Rhaegar and Rhaella , so, maybe George has adopted Egyptian customs in his books completely!

Of course, but it is something that should have come up at least as a possibility. A widowed king could have considered to marry his unmarried daughter rather than looking for a bride elsewhere. If Rhaenyra was older that could have been something Viserys I considered after the death of Queen Aemma.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

how so?

Jeyne's mother Falena Stokeworth was Aegon's first mistress and he continued to sleep with her even after she had married to new Lord of Harrenhal. We don't know when exactly Jeyne was born, so it is merely possible but not confirmed that Aegon was or could have been her father.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

well , Misarya did try to run away on her own 

Yes, but it makes little sense she apparently actually believed Rhaenyra's guys in KL could stop the rioteers. She was the spy mistress, remember?

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

still Daemon is more convincing than some other characters . I read Daemon as something like Jaimie (rather than Tywin) : complex , spontaneous and maybe with some melancholy but a lot more calculating and ambitious ( two qualities that cannot be said about Jaimie . that is not to say the characters are alike, rather there is a room for misunderstanding in both characters) .

imagine Jaimie was written in a history book :  heir to the richest lord . successful squire . fights the outlaws . knighted by the most famous knight in the realm . fucks his sister . joins the kingsgaurd . disobeys his father. kills the king he should protect . cuckolds the other king he should protect . commits high treason with his own sister and queen by siring princes. is a total jerk to absolutely everyone . yet, as a one handed man jumps in bear pit to save some girl . what would you make of that? ... I mean , with all his worst reputations, Daemon has more good qualities to be included in a history book .

although , I find it bothersome that we don't have any scene with Daemon interacting with his kids . we also don't have much information about Daemon after his marriages to Laena and especially later to Rhaenyra . considering it's Daemon that sees an attack to Kings Landing by dragons unwise,  the Rogue Prince persona is completely gone at the beginning of the dance. a transition we didn't see at all . 

That is an interesting comparison, but if we compare Daemon's final decisions to what Jaime would do he behaves like a Jaime who abandons both Rhaenyra (Cersei) and Brienne (Nettles) to get himself killed in single combat against, say, Garlan Tyrell.

That comes completely out of the left field. We can see how Nettles may have caused Daemon to radically reassess his life's priorities ... but then he abandons her, too. And unlike Jaime's children, Aegon III as well as the girls were children who grew up with their father. We cannot assume he didn't care about them or their well-being.

By going to Harrenhal to get himself killed - and that was definitely Daemon's goal as per the narrative we get: he went there to kill Aemond and Vhagar at the cost of his own life - Daemon abandons pretty much everybody. His wife and queen, his former lover, Nettles, and his children.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

I don't know if Saera's a textbook psychopath or not but for some parts she sure seems like one. I meant that George may have intended for Vissera to be read as a psychopath with George's "good" queen wanting to get rid of her (something that just wasn't the case for all the reasons you mentioned above) and Saera to be read like an overindulgent emotionally-neglected girl with septon Barth's writings of her . in light of Saera's escape after a year and a half instead of a week or so, I viewed her as more of an angry arrogant spoiled girl who does anything to attract attention . George may have just dropped the ball with those two characters.  

Oh, Saera is how an actual psychopath behaves. They are not all super smart Littlefinger-like people. They are good at manipulation but they cannot (or see no reason) to not do what they want if they think they can get away with it. Saera is completely empty inside, doesn't love any of her suitors and only fucks them because it is fun. She also doesn't care about any of her friends, etc.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

interesting idea. though in that case George has gone too far into Gylidayn role and has forgotten that at the end of the day , he should put more clues for people to figure out his story:P... or arguably he's just a genius who has kept us talking about cloaks and clues!

Well, the cloak description there can be compared to the kind of clue we get for Sarella or Sandor at Quiet Isle or even Lysa ranting about tears. So far certain things in the novels haven't been confirmed yet. For FaB there won't be any confirmation, of course, because it is just a history book, but if we were to imagine George writing a history book about the War of the Five Kings he would also include some clues for the reader to get, perhaps, a glimpse at some of Littlefinger's or Varys' deeds even although the historical consensus would likely not blame them for most of the things they actually did.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, but it makes little sense she apparently actually believed Rhaenyra's guys in KL could stop the rioteers. She was the spy mistress, remember?

well , we don't know if she stayed behind because she thought Rhaenyra's guys could stop the rioting . she might have thought she'll be safe enough in the Red Keep , she might have deliberately left out by Rhaenyra or she might have had a good plan for her escape but was outsmarted by Larys when his guy , Flea, arrested her. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That is an interesting comparison, but if we compare Daemon's final decisions to what Jaime would do he behaves like a Jaime who abandons both Rhaenyra (Cersei) and Brienne (Nettles) to get himself killed in single combat against, say, Garlan Tyrell.

no , I don't think it's like that.  Aemond was definitely a threat to Rhaenyra , her regime and Daemon's children . had he left with Nettles , he would have effectively been abandoning his family for his own sake. had he returned to Kingslanding , he would have just made yet another hurdle there . a coup by Daemon at that point would have weakened the Blacks significantly . by killing Aemond and sending Nettles away he did the best he could. as for Nettles, she would have been safe with her dragon and without Daemon and with war in every corner , Rhaenyra wouldn't have jumped on Syrax trying to find her ; as Daemon must have known. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, the cloak description there can be compared to the kind of clue we get for Sarella or Sandor at Quiet Isle or even Lysa ranting about tears. So far certain things in the novels haven't been confirmed yet. For FaB there won't be any confirmation, of course, because it is just a history book, but if we were to imagine George writing a history book about the War of the Five Kings he would also include some clues for the reader to get, perhaps, a glimpse at some of Littlefinger's or Varys' deeds even although the historical consensus would likely not blame them for most of the things they actually did.

makes sense . yet , for the book to work on its own , I personally think there should have been more clues left. I cannot imagine people who haven't been among the fandom pick up and fully enjoy FnB on its own. 

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On 3/30/2022 at 8:09 PM, EggBlue said:

well , we don't know if she stayed behind because she thought Rhaenyra's guys could stop the rioting . she might have thought she'll be safe enough in the Red Keep , she might have deliberately left out by Rhaenyra or she might have had a good plan for her escape but was outsmarted by Larys when his guy , Flea, arrested her. 

Well, it is both odd that Rhaenyra fled the city but left a garrison behind expecting to keep the Red Keep in her name. If she thought that could work ... why not stay behind herself?

But while we can assume that Rhaenyra and some of her captains might have an inaccurate or incomplete picture of the situation in the city ... Mysaria should have had an accurate and (much more) complete picture due to her profession as a spy mistress in close contact with the shadier elements of the city.

On 3/30/2022 at 8:09 PM, EggBlue said:

no , I don't think it's like that.  Aemond was definitely a threat to Rhaenyra , her regime and Daemon's children . had he left with Nettles , he would have effectively been abandoning his family for his own sake. had he returned to Kingslanding , he would have just made yet another hurdle there . a coup by Daemon at that point would have weakened the Blacks significantly . by killing Aemond and sending Nettles away he did the best he could. as for Nettles, she would have been safe with her dragon and without Daemon and with war in every corner , Rhaenyra wouldn't have jumped on Syrax trying to find her ; as Daemon must have known. 

Aemond was a threat, but not a big threat. All he did was terrorizing the Riverlands. He was too craven to attack KL directly or face two dragonriders in combat. If Aemond could continue his terror tactics for months and years this might eventually undermine Rhaenyra's rule ... making her appear weak and unwilling to defend her people.

But Aemond didn't have the means to attack Rhaenyra directly or depose her. The real danger was the Hightower army at Tumbleton.

As for Daemon staging a coup - we don't talk about Daemon deposing Rhaenyra but simply taking the government into his hands in Rhaenyra's name and ensuring that mad acts like the execution of Nettles do not happen again.

Not to mention that - assuming Nettles was Daemon's daughter - the entire situation could have been simply resolved by Daemon telling Rhaenyra about this. She wouldn't have thought that Daemon's daughter would betray her ... most definitely not by having an affair with her father.

On 3/30/2022 at 8:09 PM, EggBlue said:

makes sense . yet , for the book to work on its own , I personally think there should have been more clues left. I cannot imagine people who haven't been among the fandom pick up and fully enjoy FnB on its own. 

Well, we do have such voids also for Larys Strong or Rhaena's decision not to help Aegon the Uncrowned at the Gods Eye.

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On 4/2/2022 at 12:44 AM, Lord Varys said:

Well, it is both odd that Rhaenyra fled the city but left a garrison behind expecting to keep the Red Keep in her name. If she thought that could work ... why not stay behind herself?

But while we can assume that Rhaenyra and some of her captains might have an inaccurate or incomplete picture of the situation in the city ... Mysaria should have had an accurate and (much more) complete picture due to her profession as a spy mistress in close contact with the shadier elements of the city.

that doesn't necessarily suggest having an inaccurate picture. I assumed leaving behind a garrison was both wishful thinking and maintaining a certain appearance . if she had left the keep all to itself , it would have been admitting defeat which is not exactly a Targaryen move . moreover , upon leaving, she was murmuring about needing another dragon . to her knowledge, Dragonstone housed two full grown dragons and dozens of dragon eggs . maybe she wanted to come back with either Cannibal or Grey Ghost ; something she should have done before with Syrax (and probably Joffery wanted to do) . I mean , it's understandable that she didn't want to burn her people but at least after Largent's death , she should have scared the mob off . George had her pull a complete Aenys... she didn't even have to burn them , just flying above them would have shown them who's the boss, she could also kill shepherd if necessary .

On 4/2/2022 at 12:44 AM, Lord Varys said:

Aemond was a threat, but not a big threat. All he did was terrorizing the Riverlands. He was too craven to attack KL directly or face two dragonriders in combat. If Aemond could continue his terror tactics for months and years this might eventually undermine Rhaenyra's rule ... making her appear weak and unwilling to defend her people.

But Aemond didn't have the means to attack Rhaenyra directly or depose her. The real danger was the Hightower army at Tumbleton.

Aemond was a wild card for all Daemon knew . he could fly above Kingslanding and burn everyone and everything while Rhaenyra's dragons were either chained in the yard or in Dragonpit . off course the smarter and more beneficial move for Rhaenyra would have been doing what Addam Velaryon did . but it's not the first time a character fails to see the bigger picture .

On 4/2/2022 at 12:44 AM, Lord Varys said:

As for Daemon staging a coup - we don't talk about Daemon deposing Rhaenyra but simply taking the government into his hands in Rhaenyra's name and ensuring that mad acts like the execution of Nettles do not happen again.

it would have undermine the queen though .

On 4/2/2022 at 12:44 AM, Lord Varys said:

Not to mention that - assuming Nettles was Daemon's daughter - the entire situation could have been simply resolved by Daemon telling Rhaenyra about this. She wouldn't have thought that Daemon's daughter would betray her ... most definitely not by having an affair with her father.

and that takes us back to the first question ! this detail is the one that still makes me unsure about Nettles/Daemon relationship ... again, Daemon's character development that we never saw is frustrating . we knew the Rogue Prince but then he changed into a more experienced wiser version and then to a depressed one .. and we never saw what happened . I hope George touches on these points in the show.. Daemon's his favorite Targaryen after all!  

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and a couple of more questions: 

  • why aren't there more dragons in Dragonpit and Dragonstone?
  • what was Marston's role in the events leading to siege of Maegor's Holdfast? and why did he obeyed Aegon at the end?
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5 hours ago, EggBlue said:

that doesn't necessarily suggest having an inaccurate picture. I assumed leaving behind a garrison was both wishful thinking and maintaining a certain appearance . if she had left the keep all to itself , it would have been admitting defeat which is not exactly a Targaryen move . moreover , upon leaving, she was murmuring about needing another dragon . to her knowledge, Dragonstone housed two full grown dragons and dozens of dragon eggs . maybe she wanted to come back with either Cannibal or Grey Ghost ; something she should have done before with Syrax (and probably Joffery wanted to do) . I mean , it's understandable that she didn't want to burn her people but at least after Largent's death , she should have scared the mob off . George had her pull a complete Aenys... she didn't even have to burn them , just flying above them would have shown them who's the boss, she could also kill shepherd if necessary .

Yes, the garrison as such isn't the problem ... but Mysaria's actions are.

Not to mention - you know - Rhaenyra's unwillingness to resolve the Corlys situation. She wanted to return to Dragonstone ... so why not free her former Hand from the dungeons, apologize to him, and take one of his ships back to the island? Not trying to reconcile with him but leaving him in the Red Keep meant she could neither use him as a hostage nor an ally ... and it included the risk that he might be used by or join her enemies should they ever take the castle before she returned.

Basically, these people act as if George has them on autopilot towards moronity at that particular point in the story.

It could have even made some sense if he had Gyldayn tell us more about the general feeling of panic at Rhaenyra's court, that they never paused to think, and basically just ran ... but the situation wasn't dire enough for that. The castle wasn't under attack yet and Rhaenyra could leave the city easily enough with her retinue.

5 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Aemond was a wild card for all Daemon knew . he could fly above Kingslanding and burn everyone and everything while Rhaenyra's dragons were either chained in the yard or in Dragonpit . off course the smarter and more beneficial move for Rhaenyra would have been doing what Addam Velaryon did . but it's not the first time a character fails to see the bigger picture .

There is no indication that Daemon ever feared Aemond would attack KL directly. In fact, it is actually implied that he thought him craven since the dialogue at Harrenhal implies that Aemond only came to Harrenhal because Daemon was the only dragonrider there. He would have never faced him had Nettles or another dragonrider been with him.

We also know that Aemond's 'great plan' was to kill Rhaenyra's dragonriders one by one. He never intended to attack KL directly.

Rhaenyra looking for dragons is also kind of weird. She must have known Baela was on the island and a dragonrider already, so when she wrote to Dragonstone from Duskendale she should have commanded that her niece join her on the mainland.

5 hours ago, EggBlue said:

it would have undermine the queen though .

Not more than the usual back and forth. Rhaenyra was also absent from her own government while she was grieving, with first Corlys and Rhaenys, then Jace, and the finally Jace and Corlys (after the latter was made Hand) calling the shots.

5 hours ago, EggBlue said:

and a couple of more questions: 

  • why aren't there more dragons in Dragonpit and Dragonstone?

If I had to guess then because George wrote the Dance material before the Jaehaerys material, and then did not revise it again. From the Jaehaerys material there should have been lots of riderless dragons at the Dragonpit. And there is little reason to assume that anyone would bother moving riderless dragons to Dragonstone for no good reason.

On Dragonstone the Cannibal seems to be the explanation why the number of riderless and wild dragons was reduced. He attacked the hatcheries and killed and ate many young dragons.

5 hours ago, EggBlue said:

what was Marston's role in the events leading to siege of Maegor's Holdfast? and why did he obeyed Aegon at the end?

That is difficult to answer. The book gives us two versions - either Marston had little to no clue about what was going on and was used as a clueless stooge by the conspirators or he was one of the ringleaders who doubled back at the last moment because he realized he wouldn't get away with it.

I think he is decent enough to not have been involved in the earlier murder of Queen Jaehaera - especially since he was made a KG by Aegon II himself, and would thus likely have felt a strong sense of duty to protect his only surviving child.

But we do know that Waters was never a favorite of Aegon III and as the king was approaching his sixteenth nameday he may have started to think about his future under Aegon III. Jaehaerys I didn't keep any of Maegor's KG, and Waters was right there when Aegon II had Rhaenyra murdered.

I'm not convinced that the Peake gang directly involved him their plot to poison Aegon III and Daenaera to replace the king with Viserys II - who was at Lys for most of the Dance and thus had no direct bad experiences with most of Aegon II's surviving henchmen - but he may have been quietly on board with this.

That he was stupid enough to actually besiege his own king because of whatever the other guys told him and/or after he himself authorized the arrest and torture of Rowan I don't really understand. The only way for the conspirators to get away with their madness was if they actually killed Aegon III and Viserys. Demanding that they give up Larra didn't work ... and if it had worked in the end they would have remembered that, resulting in cruel revenge once Aegon III was in charge of his government.

Nobody could have weaseled out of that by trying to say 'But we were trying to protect against the evil Larra inside the castle who didn't actually do anything to you during the Secret Siege.'

It seems clear that Waters understood that in the end and then tried to pretend he was mislead the entire time.

But we just don't know what he did know or correctly guessed.

In general, I think the point of the poisoning attempt was clear - kill Aegon III and Jaehaera, put Viserys II on the throne, and blame the murder on the Rogares so Viserys II is free to marry a Westerosi woman (i.e. the Peake girl). Once that failed the idea to topple Rowan and arrest/kill the Rogares may have been a plot that only slowly developed after Rowan and the Rogares fucked things up in the Vale and showed weakness. The goal of the conspirators there may have been to restore the Regency/Handship to Unwin Peake and also to free Viserys from his Rogare wife ... but not including another attempt on the life of Aegon III/Daenaera at that time. That may have then come later, once Unwin was safely back in power.

The fact that Aegon III and Viserys protected Larra in Maegor's Holdfast made such a thing impossible, and it seems that Waters eventually realized that he was stuck in a dead end.

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On 3/31/2022 at 2:07 AM, Lord Varys said:

We don't know when exactly Jeyne was born, so it is merely possible but not confirmed that Aegon was or could have been her father.

Jeyne is 14 in 178, so was born in 164. Thus, conceived after Baelor had sent Aegon to Braavos in 161 or 162. Of course, the playboy prince wasn't in Braavos for all of his cousin's reign thereafter, as he fathered Daemon on Daena in early 170 - nearly a year before Baelor fasted himself to death (or was poisoned, perhaps by Aegon himself).

We'll have to wait & see if F&B V2/Blood & Fire says anything about Aegon visiting Westeros in 163-ish; whether KL, Dragonstone, the riverlands, or somewhere else Lucas the Pander could (continue to) earn his moniker. Or possibly even the Lothstons travelling to Braavos, & Aegon hooking up with Falena again there - especially if Bellegere was off on a voyage, or in some other port with her local 'husband'.

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