James Steller Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 Seriously, it's come up more than once that Stannis will become the Night's King and lead the Others in their conquest of the Seven Kingdoms. There's always variations, sure, but the main theme is that Stannis will be revealed as the ultimate bad guy, the one that heroic Jon or heroic Dany or even heroic Brienne has to kill in order to save the world. And it's just baffling to me. And yes, I'm a fan of Stannis as a character, he's my favourite in the story, but no, that doesn't mean I support everything he does. I find him a very compelling and interesting character, one who misunderstood and underrated. To that end, though, turning him into the big bad would come out of left field and make no sense. Yes, he's done some shady things, but so many other characters have done just as bad, if not worse, things than him. And moreover, he is the only king who saw the Others for the threat that they are, and he is determined to fight them in the North to save the realm, and thus prove his worthiness as a leader. That's a very admirable goal, and it would be ridiculous to have him then become the Night's King. Why? Because he's hanging out at the Nightfort and because he's a morally grey character? He is associated with the very god that's indisputably an enemy of the Others. And consider this; if Stannis was going to be the big villain by the end of the story, don't you think those two chuckle*ucks would have put that into the show? It has been clearly documented that they never liked Stannis' character and they did him dirty at every turn. They would have jumped at the chance to make him the monster they wanted him to be. And yet, they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 I hadn’t actually encountered a theory that Stannis is the Big Bad. I’m certain he is not. And there’s no Night King in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 37 minutes ago, James Steller said: To that end, though, turning him into the big bad would come out of left field and make no sense. In ASOIAF ice represents dispassionate calculation, commonly of the mind. An example is the reasoning Varys gives in AGOT for assassinating Dany. Fire is passionate action, commonly of the heart, an example would be Dany saving MMD. ASOIAF argues that the best course of action is sometimes fire and sometimes ice, that it's a matter of judgement depending on the situation and that one should never go wholly one way. ASOIAF is an argument for moderation. ASOIAF is in the process of making the point that It would be better to die to an enemy, for everyone to die to an enemy even, than to sacrifice a child to survive. An intelligent race that would sacrifice their child(ren) to survive do not deserve to survive, they're either so lost to calculation as to be heartless, or so lost to their emotions as to be brainless. Stannis's story is about how a person may come to believe the sacrifice of his child is necessary, right and his duty even. It is about how a person may justify the act. In the belief it is his duty to try to wake a dragon by sacrificing Shireen, Stannis will thematically be going completely to ice and showing himself to have the heart of winter, it will magically lead him to becoming the great enemy of the series. When he dies his true death it will be by being struck by a flaming sword, such a sword is symbolic of justice. The Stannis storyline is highly thematic, will go heavily into the magical/fantasy side of things and doing it correctly will take time. D&D had no interest in any of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted March 28, 2022 Author Share Posted March 28, 2022 43 minutes ago, SeanF said: I hadn’t actually encountered a theory that Stannis is the Big Bad. I’m certain he is not. And there’s no Night King in the books. I'm aware. And I wasn't referring to the Night King, I was referring to the Night's King in the books. It's a theory I've seen brought up several times on this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phylum of Alexandria Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 I haven't encountered people who have pushed outright Stannis-Is-the-Night's-King-Reborn theories, but I imagine people do so because he has some of the clearest Night's King parallels in the story so far: giving his seed and soul to an elemental priestess who births magical abominations, intending to take up the Night Fort, not to mention a clear story buildup based on human sacrifice Spoiler (with the show confirming Shireen's burning as the culmination of that arc) I think it's more the case that Stannis rides the line between heroism and villainy, and I personally assume he'll end up as a tragic failed hero rather than a villain. Still, it's totally possible that his infamy will render him in history as basically indistinguishable from the Night's King (who himself probably also had a more complicated or nuanced set of motivations before the legends flattened his story). As for why Stannis has these NK parallels, my guess is that it's to highlight the links between the NK myth and the AA one. This mythic hero/villain gestalt flip is relevant for the arcs of many of our major players, particularly Dany and Jon. Stannis' arc is in many ways a foil to Dany's, so perhaps his tragic failure will present a useful contrast to Dany's, or at very least highlight the perils that await her as she tries to fulfill her destiny as a savior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 Yep, I haven't heard of any 'Stannis is the big bad wolf in the story' theory yet. My idea is that Stannis WILL die at some point near. GRRM has been frequently describing his physical appearance, and although it matches his personality (stern, rigid, no-bullshit, etc) he also has been particularily attentive to his looks in Dance: he's becoming thinner, his eyes appears to have sunk into his eye sockets. It's like he is slowly fading as his army is, marching to Winterfell amidst snows and cold. But I don't think he'll become the Night King, nor any figure related to ice. He's been 'fathering' shadows (fire magic) and has been supporting a fire related religion nearly from the start of the saga. Who knows? Maybe somehow, if he truly comes back as anything, he'll come back as a Lady Stoneheart kinda character? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loose Bolt Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 There is a possibility that price of magic Stannis had used is his "soul". Or he will lose control of his body and becomes puppet/avatar and whoever will control that puppet S will cause massive collateral damage b4 it will be stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 12 hours ago, James Steller said: Seriously, it's come up more than once that Stannis will become the Night's King and lead the Others in their conquest of the Seven Kingdoms. There's always variations, sure, but the main theme is that Stannis will be revealed as the ultimate bad guy, the one that heroic Jon or heroic Dany or even heroic Brienne has to kill in order to save the world. And it's just baffling to me. And yes, I'm a fan of Stannis as a character, he's my favourite in the story, but no, that doesn't mean I support everything he does. I find him a very compelling and interesting character, one who misunderstood and underrated. To that end, though, turning him into the big bad would come out of left field and make no sense. Yes, he's done some shady things, but so many other characters have done just as bad, if not worse, things than him. And moreover, he is the only king who saw the Others for the threat that they are, and he is determined to fight them in the North to save the realm, and thus prove his worthiness as a leader. That's a very admirable goal, and it would be ridiculous to have him then become the Night's King. Why? Because he's hanging out at the Nightfort and because he's a morally grey character? He is associated with the very god that's indisputably an enemy of the Others. And consider this; if Stannis was going to be the big villain by the end of the story, don't you think those two chuckle*ucks would have put that into the show? It has been clearly documented that they never liked Stannis' character and they did him dirty at every turn. They would have jumped at the chance to make him the monster they wanted him to be. And yet, they didn't. He is starting to resemble an Other: nearly hairless, taught skin over hard bones, deep sunken eye sockets with piercing blue eyes . . . Ironically, this seems to be the result of Mel's fire magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 18 hours ago, James Steller said: Seriously, it's come up more than once that Stannis will become the Night's King and lead the Others in their conquest of the Seven Kingdoms. There's always variations, sure, but the main theme is that Stannis will be revealed as the ultimate bad guy, the one that heroic Jon or heroic Dany or even heroic Brienne has to kill in order to save the world. And it's just baffling to me. And yes, I'm a fan of Stannis as a character, he's my favourite in the story, but no, that doesn't mean I support everything he does. I find him a very compelling and interesting character, one who misunderstood and underrated. To that end, though, turning him into the big bad would come out of left field and make no sense. Yes, he's done some shady things, but so many other characters have done just as bad, if not worse, things than him. And moreover, he is the only king who saw the Others for the threat that they are, and he is determined to fight them in the North to save the realm, and thus prove his worthiness as a leader. That's a very admirable goal, and it would be ridiculous to have him then become the Night's King. Why? Because he's hanging out at the Nightfort and because he's a morally grey character? He is associated with the very god that's indisputably an enemy of the Others. And consider this; if Stannis was going to be the big villain by the end of the story, don't you think those two chuckle*ucks would have put that into the show? It has been clearly documented that they never liked Stannis' character and they did him dirty at every turn. They would have jumped at the chance to make him the monster they wanted him to be. And yet, they didn't. The show made Stan a tragic bad guy. But the novel will not necessarily take him that way. His lie will be slain but it doesn’t have to result in his death. Daenerys is Azor Ahai and as long as Stan can accept that, there is no need to make him an enemy of the protagonists. My opinion, Jon, Arya, and Bran will be the villains before too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted March 29, 2022 Share Posted March 29, 2022 Some things to keep in mind with Stannis. Quote Panting, she squatted and spread her legs. Blood ran down her thighs, black as ink. Her cry might have been agony or ecstasy or both. And Davos saw the crown of the child's head push its way out of her. Two arms wriggled free, grasping, black fingers coiling around Melisandre's straining thighs, pushing, until the whole of the shadow slid out into the world and rose taller than Davos, tall as the tunnel, towering above the boat. He had only an instant to look at it before it was gone, twisting between the bars of the portcullis and racing across the surface of the water, but that instant was long enough. He knew that shadow. As he knew the man who'd cast it. Stannis is taking the form of a shadow birthed from a sorceress and running around in the night killing people, including his own brother. This is some dark horror story stuff as. GRRM wants us to know. Quote "No." Perhaps he should have lied, and told her what she wanted to hear, but Davos was too accustomed to speaking truth. "You are the mother of darkness. I saw that under Storm's End, when you gave birth before my eyes." "Is the brave Ser Onions so frightened of a passing shadow? Take heart, then. Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king's fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him." Melisandre moved closer. "With another man, though . . . a man whose flames still burn hot and high . . . if you truly wish to serve your king's cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make . . ." ". . . a horror." Magic isn't going away, this storyline isn't going away, magic is becoming stronger and will play a bigger and bigger role in the series as it progresses. We are going to find out what will happen when Mel attempts a shadow baby with life drained Stannis, and I suggest it's not going to be sedate. Quote The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers. Mel herself says she's going to be bringing forth some terrible shadows. The other key things is the HOTU overt foreshadowing. Quote Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies There will be a confrontation between Dany and Stannis. This is chunky stuff, it's not going to be low-key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted March 29, 2022 Share Posted March 29, 2022 Stannis is one of the most interesting characters GRRM has ever created. One minute I hate the guy, the next minute I love him. It would honestly be really sad if he ended up as a villain, but at the moment I say it has a 50/50 chance. I think part of why most people think he's evil, is because of the whole shadow baby ordeal and the fact that the guy killed his brother. I'm not sure how much he knew about the shadow creature that came out of Mel, but he knew enough that he sent Davos with Mel, to Storm's End, the night she was going to give birth to one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Maester Posted March 29, 2022 Share Posted March 29, 2022 Stannis in a way serves the enemy of the others. If anything he will become some sort of big servant for rhollr (whatever Melisandre expects from him). From their you decide whether its good or bad. Edit: Also I don’t believe this will happen but if stannis did embrace some sort of evilness, it would be on the side of rhollr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rondo Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 The dude burned his own followers. That should tell you why he is not a good guy. He and Roose will cancel each other out of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James West Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 Stannis brings harm but he is not the "big villain" in the story. That would be love and emotions are the villains. Love guides the human heart. Love for family and pride in family cause the highborn to make damaging decisions which bring harm to most. A classic example is Jon Snow's betrayal of his job at the Wall because of his love for the Starks. This one decision will prove the most harmful to the people of Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon-Snow Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 On 3/28/2022 at 4:43 PM, Moiraine Sedai said: My opinion, Jon, Arya, and Bran will be the villains before too long. Could you elaborate more? Interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finley McLeod Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 GM is not one to create one-sided evil characters. Stannis has done and will further do evil things. He is not yet a villain but he could be. It is how one looks at it and where one stands. He is a villain to Rattleshirt. The soldiers he roasted would see him as a villain. If they have an afterlife. Shireen only sees her father. Melisandre sees a hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 On 3/27/2022 at 9:03 PM, James Steller said: Seriously, it's come up more than once that Stannis will become the Night's King and lead the Others in their conquest of the Seven Kingdoms. There's always variations, sure, but the main theme is that Stannis will be revealed as the ultimate bad guy, the one that heroic Jon or heroic Dany or even heroic Brienne has to kill in order to save the world. And it's just baffling to me. And yes, I'm a fan of Stannis as a character, he's my favourite in the story, but no, that doesn't mean I support everything he does. I find him a very compelling and interesting character, one who misunderstood and underrated. To that end, though, turning him into the big bad would come out of left field and make no sense. Yes, he's done some shady things, but so many other characters have done just as bad, if not worse, things than him. And moreover, he is the only king who saw the Others for the threat that they are, and he is determined to fight them in the North to save the realm, and thus prove his worthiness as a leader. That's a very admirable goal, and it would be ridiculous to have him then become the Night's King. Why? Because he's hanging out at the Nightfort and because he's a morally grey character? He is associated with the very god that's indisputably an enemy of the Others. And consider this; if Stannis was going to be the big villain by the end of the story, don't you think those two chuckle*ucks would have put that into the show? It has been clearly documented that they never liked Stannis' character and they did him dirty at every turn. They would have jumped at the chance to make him the monster they wanted him to be. And yet, they didn't. I am one of the ones who think that Stannis will join the ranks of the Others. It could happen willingly, accidentally or forcibly but yeah... I think Stannis will be among the Others and be on the opposing side of Dany and Jon at the Trident. I think the icily blue-eyed man who cast no shadow that Dany has seen and slain in her dreams and visions is Stannis. That said, I don't think he is the ultimate big bad. In fact, I don't even think that the Others are the bad guys; it's not a black/white/grey morality but rather orange/blue. I think that is going to be Bran's claim to fame--figuring out that the Others have an agenda that is sympathetic or (more likely) rational, that the Others have weaknesses and brokering a truer, lasting peace between Others and humanity. I think the ultimate (human) big bad is either Euron Greyjoy and/or Varys. Most likely both. But I think your love and appreciation of Stannis is blinding you. Stannis is the only one responded of the threat because he was the only one who we know that was explicitly informed about the threat of the Others. Varys seemed to be purposefully obfuscating and manipulating information that reached the Red Keep, Robb was in transit for most of his time in the story and northmen don't really seem to employ maesters and travelling ravenries like southerners too. Besides, Robb was on his way back to the North anyways and Catelyn (the resident POV for Team Robb) had been excluded from council meetings. Even if he cared at all, Balon Greyjoy isn't in a position to do much if he found out and Renly Baratheon died early. And the only reason Stannis found out was because of Davos. The Dragonstone maester (Pylos?) knew full and well about the letter but he intentionally chose not to bring it to Stannis' attention? I'm starting to think that Barbrey Dustin and Marwyn is onto something: I think the Citadel and most of its maesters are not only up to no good but are militantly anti-magic. On 3/28/2022 at 7:23 AM, Jon Fossoway said: Who knows? Maybe somehow, if he truly comes back as anything, he'll come back as a Lady Stoneheart kinda character? That's exactly what myself and others believe will happen. Stannis will fall and fall hard. I think he'll become an icy version of Lady Stoneheart and march with the Others south to root out all his enemies and take the Iron Throne. However, in him doing this, he will be revealing that the Others aren't what we think that they are which Bran -- I think -- will pick up on and utilize to end the War of the Dawn and maybe even restore the seasons to quarterly normalcy. And to become an ice magic version of Lady Stoneheart (or even Moqorro) is essentially to become an Other. Or at least, that's what I think. On 3/28/2022 at 9:25 PM, The Young Maester said: Stannis in a way serves the enemy of the others. If anything he will become some sort of big servant for rhollr (whatever Melisandre expects from him). From their you decide whether its good or bad. Edit: Also I don’t believe this will happen but if stannis did embrace some sort of evilness, it would be on the side of rhollr. Dany is much more likely to become a servant of R'hllor (I'm not convinced that that would be a good thing) than Stannis is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 I could see Stannis becoming an antagonists but he is not important enough to become the Nightking. Bran and Jon are the main candidates to assume the role of the NK, the man who will cause darkness to descend on Westeros. Both of the boys are bitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 1 hour ago, BlackLightning said: Dany is much more likely to become a servant of R'hllor (I'm not convinced that that would be a good thing) than Stannis is. Most of the Red Clergy consider Dany to be God’s champion on earth (and perhaps have viewed her as such, since she was born). She doesn’t seem the sort of person who would believe that of herself, but perhaps she’ll see political advantage in taking that role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 I can't help but wonder if some of it comes down to likability as a character in the eyes of the fans as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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