SeanF Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 12 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Saying that is very easy. If Russia starts flooding the world with video’s of dead Russian civilians… that’s harder to maintain. That’s too bad. Ukraine is very obviously the victim of aggression, here, just as the USSR was in WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 Another climbdown today with Russia pointing out that the payments for gas after the turnaround in rules today are not due until late April, so gas supplies won't be terminated immediately. Quote That’s too bad. Ukraine is very obviously the victim of aggression, here, just as the USSR was in WWII. The USSR was both the instigator of aggression and its recipient in WWII. The USSR did invade both Finland and Poland without due cause earlier in the war. It is of course fair that Russia was justified in sweeping the Nazis out of Eastern Europe, invading Nazi territory and taking Berlin, but it's not possible to argue they were justified in killing millions of civilians in the process and occupying most of Eastern Europe after the war, even countries that did not actually attack them like Bulgaria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 21 minutes ago, broken one said: When it happens Ukrainians, who now imo deliberately underestimate number of their dead civilians, which I believe is several times higher than the official thousand something, may start flooding with their own videos, pictures and stories. Then it looks like tit for tat. To be clear I’m not saying a Ukrainian offensive into Russia isn’t justified. I’m simply saying, politically, it is dangerous for Ukraine to take such action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broken one Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 9 minutes ago, SeanF said: Ukraine is very obviously the victim of aggression, here, just as the USSR was in WWII. USSR was coresponsible for outbreak of the conflict, consciously collaborated with nazi Germany in preparations and benefited from it, so it is far from "obviously". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 14 minutes ago, SeanF said: That’s too bad. Ukraine is very obviously the victim of aggression, here, just as the USSR was in WWII. I agree. But that’s not my point. Ukraine has masterfully controlled the media narrative so far. It will be difficult to continue to do that if the Russians can show dead civilians due to Ukrainian attacks. That doesn’t mean Ukraine is wrong to fight back. It simply means it… could… cause Ukraine problems internationally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 1 minute ago, broken one said: USSR was coresponsible for outbreak of the conflict, consciously collaborated with nazi Germany in preparations and benefited from it, so it is far from "obviously". To clarify, yes the Soviets did collaborate with the Nazis from 1939-41. But, once the Germans attacked them, they were plainly in the right, and the Germans plainly in the wrong, regardless of the level of civilian casualties on either side. In the case of this conflict, Russia would still be in the wrong, even if they took pains to avoid civilian deaths (which they don't). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 5 minutes ago, SeanF said: To clarify, yes the Soviets did collaborate with the Nazis from 1939-41. But, once the Germans attacked them, they were plainly in the right, and the Germans plainly in the wrong, regardless of the level of civilian casualties on either side. Eh? The Soviets had a free hand to kill anyone in their way, military or not, as they invaded Eastern Europe in fighting the Wehrmacht? They… couldn’t… commit war crimes during that counter-invasion? I’m asking for clarification purposes only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 I'm so glad to know that my family and others slaughtered or allowed to die by the Soviets were actually justifiably killed because the two invaders attacked each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 12 minutes ago, polishgenius said: I'm so glad to know that my family and others slaughtered or allowed to die by the Soviets were actually justifiably killed because the two invaders attacked each other. Hence my question above… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 I'll clarify my position that the USSR was very clearly not justified in the war crimes it undertook in reprisal against the Nazi invasion of their territory, especially when those crimes were directed against civilians and people from completely different countries. The USSR's moral high ground at the end of the war is not particularly convincing (not necessarily that the other Allies' were after terror bombings and nuclear attacks, but there was a difference in how the other Allies treated liberated and captured territory). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 Ukraine is now officially denying that they attacked Belgorod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Hence my question above… Yeah no worries my bitter sarcasm wasn't aimed at you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoodedCrow Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 I also could tell stories about victims of war crimes from the Soviets after the Second World War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 I could see the Belgorod attack being a false flag to justify escalating to using limited WMDs on 'military targets'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorn Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, Fez said: Ukraine is now officially denying that they attacked Belgorod I don't really read it as an official "we didn't do it" denial, more like "you reap what you've sown, we're still the defender here". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 Interesting thread on the Belarusian "railway rebels." I have seen some stories that similar sabotage efforts are starting to appear in Russia itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 Big problem Russia has as far as turning the tide of atrocities is that they're a bunch of fucking liars and no one believes them right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Eh? The Soviets had a free hand to kill anyone in their way, military or not, as they invaded Eastern Europe in fighting the Wehrmacht? They… couldn’t… commit war crimes during that counter-invasion? I’m asking for clarification purposes only. I'm distinguishing between just cause and right conduct. the Soviets (and Western allies) plainly had just cause in the fight against the Nazis. That does not justify everything that the Soviets and Western allies did in the conduct of that war. Conversely, atrocities against civilians don't render a cause unjust. Even in terms of conduct, however, there was no Allied equivalent of the Holocaust or Generalplan Ost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3CityApache Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 No one but a large part of their own, brainwashed population, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tongue Stuck to Wall Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 12 minutes ago, Fez said: Ukraine is now officially denying that they attacked Belgorod If I were the Ukrainians, I wouldn't admit to it either. Much better to let people think the Russians are being devious as usual, or at least incompetent - just another industrial accident - rather than disclose you've found weak spots in the Russian air defenses and two of your helicopters were able to sneak through. A little weird for a false flag operation, though. Given the logistical issues the Russians have experienced, blowing up 16,000 cubic metres of your own petroleum at an important depot relatively close to the front to discredit your enemy seems a bit off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.