Ukraine 11: Russian lies, guns, and money

[Loge]

4 minutes ago, Werthead said:

No, it isn't. Collective punishment is illegal and a war crime under the Geneva Convention.

If someone attacks you and is trying to kill you, you are entitled to defend yourself with lethal force. You're not entitled to go down the street and kill the next ten people you meet as well.

I'm not an expert and therefore can't give you references but from what I have heard it definitely is legal to kill the next ten people. it only becomes a war crime if you kill eleven.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, Loge said:

If that opposition is armed, then it does. Again, there are rules. Civilians taking part in the fight are supposed to be marked and carry their weapons openly. They're then basically under the same rules as the armed forces. More covert operations can be regarded as terrorism and the gloves come off. IIRC, up to ten civilians killed for each member of the occupation force killed in that kind of operation is considered legitimate. 

Wert is correct.  That’s not okay.  The Germans attempted that in Belgium during WWI and were castigated internationally for the “Rape of Belgium”.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, Loge said:

I'm not an expert and therefore can't give you references but from what I have heard it definitely is legal to kill the next ten people. it only becomes a war crime if you kill eleven.

Where did you hear that?  

[Werthead]

In more positive news, it looks like units in central Ukraine no longer in any danger of direct combat may be freed up to redeploy to areas where fighting is still taking place.

The Oryx website also seems reasonably certain that Russia has lost at least 3 vehicles/aircraft for every 1 that Ukraine has lost, and possibly that many in men as well. That requires Russia to bring a much greater preponderance of force to bear on a smaller area to be sure of victory, which of course frees up Ukrainian forces not engaged elsewhere to reinforce that small area, or even attack elsewhere on its flanks.

It sounds like most European countries supplying weapons to Ukraine are now ready to send heavier equipment, including Soviet-era tanks and heavier antiship weapons, including ones with 100+ mile ranges and can engage over the horizon.

[Loge]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Where did you hear that?  

I think it was a podcast run by people who are experts on this stuff. Not sure. But there is also some stuff about combatants vs. non-combatants etc on Wikipedia.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, Werthead said:

In more positive news, it looks like units in central Ukraine no longer in any danger of direct combat may be freed up to redeploy to areas where fighting is still taking place.

The Oryx website also seems reasonably certain that Russia has lost at least 3 vehicles/aircraft for every 1 that Ukraine has lost, and possibly that many in men as well. That requires Russia to bring a much greater preponderance of force to bear on a smaller area to be sure of victory, which of course frees up Ukrainian forces not engaged elsewhere to reinforce that small area, or even attack elsewhere on its flanks.

It sounds like most European countries supplying weapons to Ukraine are now ready to send heavier equipment, including Soviet-era tanks and heavier antiship weapons, including ones with 100+ mile ranges and can engage over the horizon.

How much will that help with the threat of Russian coming down from Belarus still in place?  The Ukrainian Army is still holding in the East… but they’ve got to be under stress.

[DMC]

41 minutes ago, Fez said:

So theoretically couldn't Russia be kicked out the same way?

26 minutes ago, Fez said:

Taiwan was kicked out.

Again, legally speaking, what's the difference here? 

The rationale/justification used was that the were not "kicked out," but rather it was a decision on which government to recognize as the legitimate government of China.  That is the important legal distinction - because if the ROC were "kicked out," that should have required assent from the security council.

Could this happen to Russia?  Theoretically, sure.  Just find another government the majority of the General Assembly is willing to recognize as the legitimate representative of Russia.  Easy peasy.  I mean, it is of course possible if there's an internal struggle, putsch, coup, etc...

 

[polishgenius]

24 minutes ago, Fez said:

Taiwan was kicked out.

Again, legally speaking, what's the difference here? 

I understand that the real difference is that Russia has nuclear weapons and Taiwan didn't.

Taiwan was kicked out to appease China, sure, but the difference between that and this idea is that Taiwan was officially kicked out because both China and Taiwan were (and are) essentially claiming to be the same country, both claiming China's original seat, and the 1971 resolution was about the UN knuckling down and choosing which one was to be considered the legitimate heir to that seat. Whether the right choice was made in legitimacy terms is open to argument and always will be, but that's what it came down to.

The other difference here is that at the time it was causing diplomatic issues with neither nation recognising anyone who'd treat with the other, closing all sorts of diplomatic channels. The resolution was presented essentially with the argument that it must be the PRC that is recognised if the UN is to fulfill its purpose since you'd never get anything internationally important done without acknowledging China. The opposite would be true here; as Mormont and Wert have been saying, kicking Russia out would achieve the precise opposite effect and close all sorts of diplomatic channels. 

 

[Werthead]

The Ukrainians are reporting a major breakthrough in Sumy, Russian forces are falling back from the city. Interesting because the city has resisted a major siege from the very start of the invasion, and it was not listed as one of the areas Russia was going to withdraw from. Chernihiv, which is supposed to be withdrawn from, is reporting some clashes continuing sporadically on the outskirts.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

24 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The Ukrainians are reporting a major breakthrough in Sumy, Russian forces are falling back from the city. Interesting because the city has resisted a major siege from the very start of the invasion, and it was not listed as one of the areas Russia was going to withdraw from. Chernihiv, which is supposed to be withdrawn from, is reporting some clashes continuing sporadically on the outskirts.

Interesting that Sumy borders Russia and not Belarus.

[Werthead]

Russian space agencies are suspending cooperation with NASA and the ESA on the International Space Station.

Lithuania has expelled the Russian ambassador.

Biden has said that Putin should face a war crimes tribunal.

Prepare for very stormy diplomacy ahead.

Amazing, Zelensky is saying that negotiations are still the way forwards, although they are now "harder."

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Russian space agencies are suspending cooperation with NASA and the ESA on the International Space Station.

I hope Trump's Space Force is ready.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Russian space agencies are suspending cooperation with NASA and the ESA on the International Space Station.

Lithuania has expelled the Russian ambassador.

Biden has said that Putin should face a war crimes tribunal.

Prepare for very stormy diplomacy ahead.

Amazing, Zelensky is saying that negotiations are still the way forwards, although they are now "harder."

Will the Russians restrict themselves to Russian portions of Izzy?

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

A State News organization in Russia publising an Op-ed that is expressly endorsing the mechanisms of genocide:

 

Same horror as Hitler's overt policies and orders to his commanders in 'the East.'  "There is no place for compassion or sympathy -- kill them all, including the children."

[Werthead]

One bizarre story doing the rounds: a Russian soldier looted a Macbook from a private residence and, unable to find another way of hiding it, used it to replace a plate in his body armour. This proved to be a Very Bad Idea because, it turns out Macbooks are less effective at stopping you from being shot.

[HoodedCrow]

Someone stole a friend’s iPhone. He tracked it and eventually got it back!

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

11 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Same horror as Hitler's overt policies and orders to his commanders in 'the East.'  "There is no place for compassion or sympathy -- kill them all, including the children."

And a Russian media organization thinks this is a good thing to publish… is terrifying.

[Fez]

Mikhail Prokhorov, one of the handful of oligarchs not under any sanctions, is reported to now be in Israel and has applied for citizenship there under the law of return. I'm going to guess any assets he still has in Russia are about to be seized, if they haven't already.

He is one of the more Western-visible oligarchs, as the former owner of the Brooklyn Nets, so it makes sense that there might be more news about him then some of the others. It makes me wonder if most/all the other oligarchs who might oppose Putin have already fled as well.

[Rippounet]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

There’s a danger in framing things as more morally grey than they are are or at least all positions with regards to a conflict as having some validity. It allows them to be apathetic to any power grabs from any actual deplorable elements of society.

Funny. I tend to think those who are incapable of raising ethical concerns when it comes to killing fellow humans and/or quick to brush such concerns aside, are also those who are more likely to fall prey to simplistic narratives whose aim it is to support or bolster illegitimate power structures.

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

A State News organization in Russia publising an Op-ed that is expressly endorsing the mechanisms of genocide:

 

And the projection never ends.