The maimed singers of ASOIAF

[Seams]

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There are no heroes, and she remembered what Lord Petyr had said to her, here in this very hall. "Life is not a song, sweetling," he'd told her. "You may learn that one day to your sorrow." In life, the monsters win, she told herself, and now it was the Hound's voice she heard, a cold rasp, metal on stone. "Save yourself some pain, girl, and give him what he wants."

The last case was a plump tavern singer, accused of making a song that ridiculed the late King Robert. Joff commanded them to fetch his woodharp and ordered him to perform the song for the court. The singer wept and swore he would never sing that song again, but the king insisted. It was sort of a funny song, all about Robert fighting with a pig. The pig was the boar who'd killed him, Sansa knew, but in some verses it almost sounded as if he were singing about the queen. When the song was done, Joffrey announced that he'd decided to be merciful. The singer could keep either his fingers or his tongue. He would have a day to make his choice. Janos Slynt nodded.

AGoT, Sansa VI

Do the maimed singers represent the three iterations of Lightbringer? Forged in water, a lion and in the heart of Nissa Nissa?

I've done some tentative exploring of the possibility of Joffrey as a symbolic Azor Ahai. Sansa's observation that there are no heroes, just before the anecdote of the maimed singer, makes me think that GRRM's love of irony is in play here: we think of Azor Ahai as a legendary hero, but we know the author likes to undermine our expectations about good and evil or all kinds of absolutes or ideals. It's all about the eye of the beholder, subverted expectations and grey areas. So what about the forgers of Lightbringer manifesting as people who torture and destroy singers? This might help to explain that "Song" part of the ASOIAF title. We know that ice and fire relate to swords in the series. If singers personify swords that can be forged or reforged, this would tie the songs back to the central symbol of the hereditary swords. 

The Plump Tavern Singer

I believe the unnamed plump tavern singer is the first of the brutalized singers, if there is a pattern linking them. He doesn't seem to have a lot of obvious water symbolism in this brief mention of his role in the story. The word "plump" may be linked to Varamyr Sixskins, who was known as Lump when he was a child. I believe that plums may be associated with Bloodraven (Ser Maynard Plumm and Plummer, the master of the games at Ashford Meadow). I have not considered what it means when plum and lump come together to make plump. But I do wonder whether the word "tavern" is a thinly-disguised reference to a raven. 

The pig symbolism links him to Joffrey's wedding feast, where the mummer jousters ride a pig and a dog.

The water aspect of the first forging could come from the song's reference to the queen: Cersei. Even though the symbolism seems counter-intuitive, I suspect there is "Ice" symbolism in Cersei's name, possibly linked to "Winter" symbolism when combined with Tywin and/or Tyrion. If ice is frozen water, the might account for the first attempt to forge Lightbringer in water. I do think that Jaime is GRRM's archetype for the flawed hero and that Joff is a "mini" version of Jaime. Jaime and Joff have relationships with Cersei, Tywin and Tyrion that could represent the hero attempting to both love and slay the season (winter). 

Cover your ears and run away if you hate wordplay and symbolism, but I'm also wondering anew about the word "verse" as a pair with "serve." The "all men must serve" translation of valar dohaeris seems important but I could never figure out why serving is so important, on a par with Valar morghulis, "all men must die." If "serve" contains a hidden allusion to the verses of a song, perhaps the motto of the Faceless Men compares life to song, similar to Shakespeare comparing life to an hour upon a stage. Maiming a singer might then be a way of destroying life. Looking at search results for the word "singer," I am seeing that singers seem to determine who the heroes are: if they sing a song about you, you get the glory. So maybe there is a yin / yang relationship between singers and heroes, each playing a role in "forging" the other. 

As Joffrey sits in judgment over the plump tavern singer, Janos Slynt with his frog demeanor, sits nodding at Joffrey's side. I think this could be the frog / forge wordplay telling us that Joffrey is doing some "forging" of a sword.

Symon Silver Tongue

The next maimed singer is Symon Silver Tongue, I believe. He wants to perform at Joffrey's wedding but instead ends up in bowls of brown:

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The last time Tyrion had seen the man, a sharp word had been enough to set him sweating, but it seemed the singer had found some courage somewhere. Most like in that flagon. Or perhaps Tyrion himself was to blame for this new boldness. I threatened him, but nothing ever came of the threat, so now he believes me toothless. He sighed. "I am told you are a very gifted singer."

"You are most kind to say so, my lord."

...

"At King Joffrey's wedding feast," the man said, "there is to be a tournament of singers."

"And jugglers, and jesters, and dancing bears."

"Only one dancing bear, my lord," said Symon, who had plainly attended Cersei's arrangements with far more interest than Tyrion had, "but seven singers. Galyeon of Cuy, Bethany Fair-fingers, Aemon Costayne, Alaric of Eysen, Hamish the Harper, Collio Quaynis, and Orland of Oldtown will compete for a gilded lute with silver strings . . . yet unaccountably, no invitation has been forthcoming for one who is master of them all."

"Let me guess. Symon Silver Tongue?"

...

Bronn was waiting with the horses at the mouth of the alley. He helped Tyrion into his saddle. "When do I take the man to Duskendale?"

"You don't." Tyrion turned his horse. "Give him three days, then inform him that Hamish the Harper has broken his arm. Tell him that his clothes will never serve for court, so he must be fitted for new garb at once. He'll come with you quick enough." He grimaced. "You may want his tongue, I understand it's made of silver. The rest of him should never be found."

ASoS, Tyrion IV

The sword symbolism is fairly clear with Symon: those who have read as far as Brienne's encounter with Biter know that tongues are like swords because Brienne thinks that Biter's long tongue is coming at her, mistaking Gendry's sword, coming through the back of Biter's head, with the monster's tongue. 

Symon's role in the story is intertwined with discussion of singing, eating and entertainment at Joffrey's wedding feast. As Joffrey is about to mysteriously die at the wedding feast - probably because of something he ate - we should pay close attention to Symon, even though - on a literal level - we are told that Symon does not achieve his dream of participating in the tourney of singers.

There's a lot of interesting symbolism at work here. Tyrion tells Bronn that he may want to keep Symon's silver tongue. This is the symbolic giving of a sword. Usually swords are given by fathers to sons in ASOIAF, so this is a key moment where the author wants us to see a father / son (or rebirth) relationship between Tyrion and Bronn. As Bronn will eventually name his son Tyrion, we know there is an ongoing motif between the two characters. 

The silver element is also important. Just before he drops dead, Joffrey takes up Ser Ilyn Payne's silver sword. Is he symbolically taking up the dismembered singer? 

Note: we did have Littlefinger once tell Cat and Ned that opening a pie means that birds begin to sing (and that Varys wouldn't like that). So there is another tie between singing, eating pigeon pie and the silver sword (used to cut the pie at Joffrey's feast) and the death of the "hero" (Joffrey). The "pigeon" pie may tie back to the pig in the song sung by the plump tavern singer as well. Wordplay on "pig" and "pig eon". 

Tyrion refuses to serve as Joffrey's champion in the mummer jousting at the wedding. But Bronn was a champion for Tyrion. This gets a little complicated: if the silver sword represents Bronn's sword (and Symon's tongue), does that mean that Tyrion's champion slayed Joffrey? 

I also have a new thought about Cersei's seven singers having a tournament at the wedding feast. This is so similar to Sansa / Alayne having a tournament to recruit seven guards for Sweetrobin. (And I'm guessing that Joffrey's fate at his wedding feast probably foreshadows something that will happen at the tourney Alayne has suggested in the Vale.) 

Long story short: Tyrion is forging a sword when he directs Bronn to kill Symon and sell his body to the pot shops of Flea Bottom. I long ago saw a connection between Tobho Mott and "hot tomb," inferring a relationship between tombs and forges as places where weapons are made. By adding singers (or maimed singers) into the mix with tombs and forges, we can gain understanding about the way that magic swords are created: music or singing is required. 

This would also explain the wordplay connection between "Leaf" and the "Flea" of Flea Bottom: the children of the forest call themselves singers. Leaf is one of the children who interacts with Bran (probably helping to forge him into a new or better sword). So Tobho Mott may operate a hot tomb, but Flea Bottom as a whole may be more of a Leaf Tomb. This would tie in with the earth fertility cycle I've been seeing in a lot of GRRM's symbolism, with falling leaves turning to topsoil to nourish the next generation of plant growth. I'm sure it's not a coincidence that the plump tavern singer and Symon both play the woodharp.

Marillion

Tyrion is also tied to another maimed singer: Marillion. 

On the road to the Eyrie, Tyrion wins a shadowcat cloak from Marillion in a dice game. This probably ties back into that Varamyr Sixskins allusion I mentioned earlier. Tyrion wears the cloak at the Eyrie (almost losing it to the jailer, Mort, who probably symbolizes death) before Bronn wins the trial by combat that allows Tyrion to go free. (The last time we see Tyrion in the cloak, he is visiting the underground wild fire storage area of the alchemists. This probably links to the tomb symbolism for making weapons.) 

Marillion is later blamed for the death of Lysa Arryn. He is imprisoned and tortured but Sweetrobin can still hear his music coming from the sky cells. 

I haven't forgotten about the Azor Ahai story, and I suspect that the name MarilLION may be a hint for us about this singers = swords motif. Is Maril"LION" the slain lion that represents the second attempt to forge Lightbringer? 

Marillion's downfall or demise is brought about by Littlefinger, for the most part. Although maybe we should be looking at Alayne, who is complicit in allowing the blame to fall on Marillion. Sansa was closely linked to Joffrey, as his former betrothed, and to Tyrion, as his wife (although their relationship was not consummated). Since Joffrey and Tyrion are the two sword-forgers who maimed the first two singers, maybe she represents the Azor Ahai figure in the Marillion stage of the story.

Theon

One of the reasons this topic came to mind was my recent thought that Theon / Reek might represent "Abel" in the Winterfell scenes in ADwD. We never see the singer Abel, although we know that the washerwomen are his agents, helping him with the mission to get fArya/Jeyne away from Ramsay. Instead. we see those washerwomen working with Theon, who has been badly maimed like the singers I described. 

We also see Theon in the "forge" (crypt, another word for tomb) at Winterfell. While he is in the crypt, Lady Dustin tells him about her love affair with Brandon Stark, who liked to get blood on his "sword" by deflowering virgins. This could be our Nissa Nissa symbolism. Brandon of the Bloody Blade indeed. Instead of being a victim who dies, Lady Dustin is a Nissa Nissa who is an active participant in the forging of the sword. She is the one who helps Theon to stop being Reek and become Theon again. And we know that Theon is a symbolic sword who is linked to the contemporary Bran Stark, perhaps having a psychic link through the weirwood in the Winterfell gods wood. 

Spoiler

In the preview chapters, we see Theon hanging on the wall where Stannis is conducting business. At last, it seems that Stannis has "Lightbringer" in his possession. Will he be able to wield the sword? What the hand dare seize the fire?

As the mistress of Barrowtown, Lady Dustin may also command thousands of "forges" in the form of tombs. Maybe this links back to the detail that has always puzzled me about Aegon the Conqueror leaving the swords of the northern bannermen unbent, unbowed and unbroken - he did not melt them into the Iron Throne. North men do not worship the new gods and their swords remain in a state closer to the old gods, symbolically buried in the barrows of the north, waiting to be reborn.

Lancel, The Blue Bard, Puppeteers

There are lots of interesting details if the "maimed singers = Lightbringer" motif is accurate. Lancel Lannister sings for Cersei when he become her lover. He also looks like a young Jaime, iirc. (And I already mentioned that Joffrey is a mini-Jaime.) So Cersei may be forging a sword in the form of Lancel but then Tywin goes and betroths Lancel to Gatehouse Aimee, the Frey / Darry / Crakehall (boar) hybrid. Lancel does not consummate the marriage, however, and he joins the religious brotherhood that was empowered by - CERSEI. We have yet to see how the religious fanatics will meld with Cersei's plans as queen regent, but it seems as if Lancel may have returned to her. As for his maiming, doesn't Lancel wear a hair shirt or whip himself as part of his religious devotion? 

Cersei and Qyburn also put some special effort into maiming and torturing the Blue Bard, who is a singer in Margaery's entourage. As blue is closely associated with Brienne, it is interesting to try to connect Brienne's platonic bond with Jaime and Cersei's passionate sexual bond with Jaime. By torturing the blue singer, Cersei may be trying to "reforge" her rival. Will her effort backfire? 

I don't think GRRM wants us to equate puppeteers with singers, but they are probably closely related. They both seem to suffer punishment from highborn people when they tell truths the highborn people do not want revealed. Tanselle suffers a broken finger in The Hedge Knight. Qyburn uses puppeteers as ingredients in his Ser Robert Strong recipe. The invention of Ser Robert Strong seems consistent with the forging or re-forging of a weapon. (I bet wordplay on "Senelle," the name of Cersei's handmaid and "Lancel," the cousin who is a singer and her lover, might account for the singer ingredient needed for the recipe. As Ser Robert Strong will become a member of the King's Guard and Cersei's champion for her upcoming trial, this also ties back to the tournament of singers and the king's guard symbolism mentioned in connection with Joffrey's wedding feast, earlier in this thread.)

[Mourning Star]

On 3/30/2022 at 1:24 PM, Seams said:

The "all men must serve" translation of valar dohaeris seems important but I could never figure out why serving is so important, on a par with Valar morghulis, "all men must die."

This is a fun one to play with.

All men must die. All men must serve.

It’s the conclusions we draw from it that are so interesting to me.

First, these are descriptions of the human condition. Everyone dies, and also serves others as well as being servants to their own needs and desires.

If we use these phrases to reflect on ourselves further, we might consider that since we are all mortal, and eventual death is inevitable, there are more important things than just trying to stay alive, namely the service we preform in life, which can affect the world long after we have died. I think this sentiment is repeatedly highlighted throughout the series.

If we look at these phrases and apply them to others, we can form a different interpretation. One I would describe as expressing equality. Mortality is the great equalizer, and also that we men, despite being imperfect, will just have to do (“must serve”). I can almost hear Stannis through gritted teeth saying that his followers are all fools and lickspittles, but they will just have to be enough. While I’m talking about a grander purpose than who wears a crown, the image works for me. We’re all going to die, but until then, we are the best we’ve got.

I think there is the literal cynical view. Interpreting these phrases as vengeance against mankind and a wish to enslave them. Particularly given that the Others are using literal dead men as servants. I would see this as the view that should be opposed, the inhuman view.

In a less fantastical sense one could argue that all life is built on death, and it’s the service of the innumerable generations who died before us that sees us where we are today.

At the end of the day, perhaps these phrases are one of the big lessons of the series. Life is temporary and what is most important is the service we can do others in the time we have. 

As for the word play… well, I’ll make another comment!

[Evolett]

 

On 3/30/2022 at 7:24 PM, Seams said:

Do the maimed singers represent the three iterations of Lightbringer? Forged in water, a lion and in the heart of Nissa Nissa?

I think they accompany the 3 forgings rather than represent them. The first forging takes place that fateful day when  Arya and her butcher's boy are interrupted by the arrival of Sansa and Joffery and the fateful events that follow. The chance meeting takes place at or near the Ruby Ford, where Robert killed Rhaegar with his great war hammer - a location laden with history and meaning. Rhaegar himself is associated with singing, sad songs in particular and he played the harp. Joffery is the singer here. Shortly before reaching the place, he sings to Sansa:

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Joffrey sang for her as they rode, his voice high and sweet and pure. aGoT, Sansa I

The prince certainly appears to have a good voice. At the beginning of their outing, Joff had proudly shown Sansa his sword, named Lion's Tooth (though for some reason, both Arya and Sansa remember the sword's name as Lion's Paw). So, Arya eventually hurls Lion's Tooth into the water - the first forging gone wrong. The sword is lost to the waters. So Arya, who sometime thinks of herself as a 'water dancer' and practices for hours at swordsmanship, screws up the first forging. The symbolism here suggests that the Starks, represented by Arya here, a family that has some kind of connection to the Others, actively try to thrawt the forging of the sword that represents the defeat of the Others. 

On 3/30/2022 at 7:24 PM, Seams said:

When the song was done, Joffrey announced that he'd decided to be merciful. The singer could keep either his fingers or his tongue. He would have a day to make his choice. Janos Slynt nodded.

AGoT, Sansa VI

Much later, when Joffery is king, he gives the singer a choice between keeping his tongue or his fingers. The singer also needed his fingers because like Rhaegar, he played a harp to accompany his songs, thus the fingers that play the instrument are also of importance.  

Marillion accompanies the second forging at the Eyrie and I would say he is more connected to Tyrion than to other characters. He offers to sing for Tyrion at the Inn but Tyrion isn't interested in songs. Tyrion is then captured by Catelyn and the party heads for the Eyrie. Marillion crashes with his horse during the attack from the mountain clans and Tyrion comes to his aid but intentionally treads on the singers fingers and is satisfied when hears them crunch. So Marillions fingers are injured even before he gets to the Eyrie. Tyrion is the Lion in the second forging while the Azor Ahai figure is Ser Vardis, Lysa's champion. The forging in the Lion also fails - Bron fights as Tyrion's champion and defeats Ser Vardis. We also note that Lysa gave Vardis a new sword, one she had made for Jon Arryn before his death. 

Later, Littlefinger pushes Lysa out the Moon Door and Marillion has to confess to the murder. He keeps on singing but presumably without his woodharp because we learn that his fingers are badly mutilated through further torture.  

 

On 3/30/2022 at 7:24 PM, Seams said:

The next maimed singer is Symon Silver Tongue, I believe. He wants to perform at Joffrey's wedding but instead ends up in bowls of brown

I think this is a working example to let us know that the instrument is as important as the song / tongue. Symon of the Silver Tongue wants to perform at the wedding because of the prize offered: a lute with silver strings (so again we think of Rhaegar with his silver-stringed harp). But Symeon is silenced and so is the Blue Bard. 

So, I'm not quite sure but perhaps while the sword does the dirty but necessary work (like Bronn),  the singing in harmony with the instrument is what brings the balance to smoothe things out (the seasons). Neither Dany as the representative of a summer extreme (fire) nor the Starks (the winter extreme) keep a singer. Bael the Bard is one of the few singers to visit Winterfell and he exchanges his songs for a blue winter rose. Blue winter roses grow in the glass gardens of Winterfell where it is quite hot. A kind of frozen fire, the two extremes united. When Robb, newly minted King in the North is murdered, the accompanying music is totally discordant. The musicians play tunes to which the words of different songs are sung. Rhaegar loved his songs and composed music but he found out he had to be a warrior as well. Perhaps in the end we will see a warrior-bard to save the day. Or a warrior accompanied by a bard who plays his instrument in harmony with his songs.

 

[Evolett]

6 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I think there is the literal cynical view. Interpreting these phrases as vengeance against mankind and a wish to enslave them. Particularly given that the Others are using literal dead men as servants. I would see this as the view that should be opposed, the inhuman view.

In a less fantastical sense one could argue that all life is built on death, and it’s the service of the innumerable generations who died before us that sees us where we are today.

At the end of the day, perhaps these phrases are one of the big lessons of the series. Life is temporary and what is most important is the service we can do others in the time we have. 

Well said, I like this  

[Mourning Star]

On 3/31/2022 at 8:14 PM, Evolett said:

Well said, I like this  

I’m going to go ahead and credit Gandalf, haha!

“I wish it need not have happened in my time,” said Frodo. “So do I,” said Gandalf, “and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

[Evolett]

On 3/30/2022 at 7:24 PM, Seams said:

So what about the forgers of Lightbringer manifesting as people who torture and destroy singers? This might help to explain that "Song" part of the ASOIAF title. We know that ice and fire relate to swords in the series. If singers personify swords that can be forged or reforged, this would tie the songs back to the central symbol of the hereditary swords. 

 

I've been thinking of the forging of swords in relation to songs/singers, Lightbringer and Azor Ahai you bring up here. What comes to mind is that swords often "sing" in the books:

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• Outside the armory, Iron Emmett was still urging on his charges in the yard. The song of steel on steel woke a hunger in Jon. It reminded him of warmer, simpler days, when he had been a boy at Winterfell matching blades with Robb under the watchful eye of Ser Rodrik Cassel.
   
• For the first time all day, Selmy felt certain. This is what I was made for, he thought. The dance, the sweet steel song, a sword in my hand and a foe before me.
   
• Swords rode on their hips, singing their soft steel song as they rattled in their scabbards.
   
• This time Bronn stood his ground. The swords flew at each other, and their steel song filled the garden and rang off the white towers of the Eyrie.

So swords sing and singers need their tongue to be able to sing at all - the tongue is vital to'forging' the song and perhaps in terms of forging swords, the song is vital to the forging of the sword. There may also be wordplay on tongue / tong / song as in songs and tongs are essential to forging  swords/tongues or a lightbringer sword in particular. You can't grasp hot metal without tongs. In Jon's quote, the song of steel reminds him of warmer days. 

Going back to the prologue to aGoT, Ser Waymar holds his sword high and his hand trembles - this probably causes the sword to tremble as well, or at least to vibrate and perhaps produce a sound, a steel song. The Other examined the sword before the "Dance" began. Could it be it was listening for a 'song', rather than looking at the sword? Recall there is Gared and his ears which he lost to the cold which could be a pointer to ears or hearing being important. ¹

The Blue Bard certainly has a connection to Azor Ahai. His all blue attire is described as "azure," a tone of blue. Azure is very close to "Azor." I began to think of "Ahai" in terms of "a high." So Azor Ahai could stand for a high tone or a high note. Incidentally, Brienne is associated with blue as well as azure and she knows the lyrics to all the songs, though we have not heard her sing so far. 

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The arms of Tarth were quartered rose and azure, ...

The Blue Bard is however tortured, maimed and made to sing a new song (or reforged) and the new song is a false song which he keeps singing:

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My whisperers tell me that they are whipping him, but so far he is still singing the same sweet song we taught him.”

The "sweet song" may be a false song, one that cannot empower a Lightbringer sword. 

But perhaps all these hints about the steel song in connection with the forging of a lightbringer sword are really pointing to the forging of a lightbringer person, suggested by Brandon's bloody blade:

On 3/30/2022 at 7:24 PM, Seams said:

We also see Theon in the "forge" (crypt, another word for tomb) at Winterfell. While he is in the crypt, Lady Dustin tells him about her love affair with Brandon Stark, who liked to get blood on his "sword" by deflowering virgins. This could be our Nissa Nissa symbolism. Brandon of the Bloody Blade indeed. Instead of being a victim who dies, Lady Dustin is a Nissa Nissa who is an active participant in the forging of the sword.

Forging a sword - forging a baby. Aemon Steelsong. Elsewhere there is that fun scene where Asha declares an axe her husband and her dirk her suckling babe. How about a sword, that is really a suckling babe? Sam sings to Gilly's baby and perhaps also to Dalla's baby. Dalla's baby certainly gets his fair share of singing on the journey to Oldtown:

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The only thing Kojja Mo loved better than her bow was bouncing Dalla’s boy upon her knee and singing to him in the Summer Tongue.

There's a lot more going on here of course but that's it in a nutshell. 

EDIT - addition - see 1

[Seams]

5 hours ago, Evolett said:

Could it be it was listening for a 'song', rather than looking at the sword? Recall there is Gared and his ears which he lost to the cold which could be a pointer to ears or hearing being important.

I like this a lot. 

This is going to be a jumble of symbols but they may be relevant. 

As you point out, Qyburn and Cersei teach the Blue Bard (a symbolic sword) to sing a "sweet" song. 

We know that "sweet" and "bitter" are opposites (and GRRM has said that ASOIAF will have a bitter-sweet ending). 

So Cersei and Qyburn are on team "sweet," wanting the singer to sing a sweet song. 

The ancestral sword of House Royce is Lamentation. I believe there is wordplay here, resulting in an "attain lemon" anagram.

A "lemon" sword would be the opposite of the "sweet" sword (song) that Cersei and Qyburn want. Lemon sword = bitter steel?

Even though Ser Waymar is not carrying the Royce family sword when he goes ranging beyond the Wall, the Royce symbolism would be associated with team "bitter," sending out a sour song.

Tyrion and Bronn kill Symon Silver Tongue and put his body into bowls of brown, the "singer stew" that Tyrion will joke about when he meets Penny.

At Joffrey's wedding feast, Joffrey uses a silver sword - the only sword specifically described as silver, I believe - to open the cold pie. Littlefinger had told Catelyn and Ned that Varys wouldn't want the pie opened because then the birds would sing. (Readers assumed Littlefinger was speaking metaphorically.) Here we have a singer's tongue (silver) associated with a sword: also silver and bright with runes. In other words, the sword is covered with words, like the Royce armor (and sword). Are the runes representative of song lyrics? The song and the sword are one. 

Ser Ilyn Payne is mute because Aerys had his tongue cut out, similar to Tyrion having Symon's tongue removed. (And maybe similar to Joffrey torturing the plump tavern singer and Littlefinger or Alayne torturing Merillion.) But Ser Ilyn is still a skilled swordsman (who will later work with Jaime) and he holds the title of King's Justice. 

I've written elsewhere that I think Ser Ilyn's sword is literally or symbolically the agent of Joffrey's death. (And that Ser Ilyn is loyal to Tywin.) If it is "a justice song" or a "bitter steel" song that kills Joffrey, that would explain a few things about the tournament of singers at the wedding feast. Everything is building up to Ser Ilyn handing Joffrey the "song" that will kill him.

It might also show that Aerys is getting revenge on the Lannisters: Jaime killed Aerys with a gold sword; the "King's Justice" kills Joffrey (mini Jaime) with a silver sword. 

And the lemon / sweet motif might also be included in the slaying of Joffrey: a serving man puts a "spoon of lemon cream" on the hot pigeon pie just before Joffrey eats it. 

(Of course, as the fan of lemon cakes, Sansa wants to embrace both the bitter and the sweet.) 

Like the Summer Islander singing to the baby Aemon Steelsong, Jalabhar Xho gives Joffrey a groom's gift of a bow and arrows. A bow is part of the wordplay involving rainbows but probably also the kind of bow that is used with a string instrument such as a violin or cello. But Joffrey never gets a chance to use the bow and arrows. Jalabhar tries to talk to Sansa (but she cannot understand him) and he later tries to teach Margaery and her companions how to speak the summer tongue. 

Jalabhar is strongly associated with red and green, so it's interesting that he may be teaching Margaery a red and green song just as she is about to lose her Blue Bard companion to Qyburn and Cersei's torture chamber. I think there's a tension among red, green and blue as the three forks of the Trident River, but it had never occurred to me that a character could change fork colors. (if that is what Margaery is doing after Joffrey's death. Interesting to note that GRRM never reveals whether Garlan Tyrell's wife is a green or red apple Fossoway.)

If songs and swords are linked symbols, this could also explain why Darkstar Dayne cuts off Myrcella's ear. It's part of the larger symbolism of a song/sword killing one Lannister heir and taking the ear (ability to hear music) of another. Also the Payne / Dayne wordplay is a parallel. (Maybe Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne because he represents the King's Justice.) 

Anyway. Your observation was about the Others listening for a specific sound from Ser Waymar's sword - a song of lemon ( = bitter steel)? or runes? or a color? In addition to Lamentation, House Royce is associated with armor and a sigil covered with runes. I suspect that the name Royce might be wordplay on the French "roi," meaning king. So that first prologue chapter is giving us the death (or, at least, the transformation into a zombie) of a "king." Later, the symbolic Royce/Roi zombie strikes back (if you can call Ser Ilyn a zombie) and kill Joffrey. 

We're circling back to the heavy Royce presence at the Vale and the upcoming tourney there. Sansa loves singers as well as true knights. If her idea for a tourney turns out like Cersei's idea for a tournament of singers at Joffrey's wedding feast, someone is going to die like Joffrey. If it was Ilyn's sword / the lemon cream that killed Joffrey, it may be something sweet that kills the parallel character in the Vale. And you can bet that a song will be playing in the background when the death occurs. 

Interesting that Sansa saw a broken sword over the fireplace at the Fingers when she went there with Littlefinger to meet Lysa. This goes to the sword / song link because the singer Merillion soon tries to rape Sansa but she is saved by Lothor Brune. Ser Lothor is associated with the color brown, like Dick Crabb (who is very dirty) and with Crackclaw Point, where Brienne (our blue character who does NOT sing Qyburn and Cersei's sweet song) is on her quest for Sansa. He also takes on apple symbolism when he kills and captures some Fossoways at the Blackwater. I believe apples and Fossoways are associated with kings or kingmakers. 

Ser Lothor getting the better of Merillion may be a symbolic way of showing another round of the "tournament of singers." In the Hand's Tourney in AGOT, Ser Lothor ends up losing to Ser Robar Royce. At Joffrey's name day tourney, it is Brune who is scheduled to fight Ser Dontos but the match is cancelled when Ser Dontos shows up too drunk to compete. Later, under the command of Littlefinger, Ser Lothor orders crossbow men (those bows again) to kill Ser Dontos. Lothor is attracted to Mya Stone, which may tie him back to that King's Justice role associated with this song/sword motif. Maybe he will be the agent of death at the upcoming tourney in the Vale.

[Seams]

Another thought on songs / swords:

A couple of the moments I found hokiest are when Jon and Arya say the name "Needle" and Jaime and Brienne say the name "Oathkeeper" at the same time. Why would two people come up with exactly the same name at the same time? Twice.

But these shared moments of inspiration make more sense if you think of two people singing the same song - of course they would know the lyrics and sing them simultaneously. Makes much more sense.

[Evolett]

16 hours ago, Seams said:

As you point out, Qyburn and Cersei teach the Blue Bard (a symbolic sword) to sing a "sweet" song. 

We know that "sweet" and "bitter" are opposites (and GRRM has said that ASOIAF will have a bitter-sweet ending). 

So Cersei and Qyburn are on team "sweet," wanting the singer to sing a sweet song. 

The ancestral sword of House Royce is Lamentation. I believe there is wordplay here, resulting in an "attain lemon" anagram.

A "lemon" sword would be the opposite of the "sweet" sword (song) that Cersei and Qyburn want. Lemon sword = bitter steel?

This exchange we're having leads me  to believe we have to look at the forging of Lightbringer in terms of a yin-yang principle. It's all about balance. Perhaps we've been somewhat blind in terms of the sword, but it's right there in the text when you know what to look for. Both Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa have double names. Nissa Nissa's cry is one of "agony" and "ecstacy" - bitter and sweet, mirrored by Brandon "forging his sword" in Lady Dustin:

Quote

A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.

The resulting sword would have to be of sweet-and-bitter steel. And the Lannisters are contributing to the "sweet song, sweet sword" part of it. Symon Silver tongue threatened Tyrion with a true song, one that would have had bitter consequences for Tyrion, had the singer sung it at the feast, or anywhere really. We've already seen that songs and performances are taken note of and reported to the royal family. Tyrion did not want to hear that sour/bitter song and had the man turned into "singer's stew." I think the bowl of brown is the representative dumping ground of all those singers who dare to sing a song that should not be heard. It conjours up heaps of dirt, excrement, unknowable things floating in your food etc. 

The Blue Bard was made to sing a "sweet song," but so was Ned. Ned also sung a "sweet song," trading his honor in for Sansa's life when he told the lie and it went toward reforging Ice when he was beheaded with his own sword on Joffery's orders. So Joff really is an Azor Ahai archetype, facilitating the "sweet" principle of the sword.   Perhaps the first 2 forgings of Lightbringer in the myth are about establishing the two principles. In my post above I propose Arya's throwing of Lion's Tooth into the water as the first forging. Arya was telling the truth but Joff's lie, the "sweet song," prevailed. In the second forging, Ser Vardis loses to Bronn fighting on behalf of Tyrion the lion and here the "bitter steel," the bitter truth from Lysa's point of view, prevails. Then in the third forging, "agony and ecstacy" combine to complete Lightbringer. 

16 hours ago, Seams said:

Ser Ilyn Payne is mute because Aerys had his tongue cut out, similar to Tyrion having Symon's tongue removed. (And maybe similar to Joffrey torturing the plump tavern singer and Littlefinger or Alayne torturing Merillion.) But Ser Ilyn is still a skilled swordsman (who will later work with Jaime) and he holds the title of King's Justice.

Ser Ilyn Payne and Symon share the same "bowl of brown" imagery in addition to the missing tongue imo. Recall the description of Ser Ilyn's quarters in the dungeons of the Red Keep - a filthy hole with rotting left over food etc. Neither Symon's nor Ilyn's songs will ever be heard and I tend to think his new sword of justice is "warded" against any songs or souls of the executed dead. His silver sword has a dragonglass pommel and a hilt with rubies plus the runes. Dragonglass has supernatural properties that kill Others and can be seen as a "ward" against Others. Rubies aid in binding souls (Melisandre's magic) while silver is variously thought to be effective against werewolves, witches and other supernatural monsters. The runes may be a ward as well. I also see the silver in relation to his position as the King's Justice, the Stark's maxim of "the man who passes the scentence should swing the sword" and the biblical Judas who sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. Ser Ilyn carries out justice in the King's name and gets paid for it. Ned takes care of this unpleasant duty himself - I feel this is an important factor, even if I can't quite put my finger on it right now. 

 

16 hours ago, Seams said:

And the lemon / sweet motif might also be included in the slaying of Joffrey: a serving man puts a "spoon of lemon cream" on the hot pigeon pie just before Joffrey eats it.

It was Tyrion who got the lemon cream.

16 hours ago, Seams said:

Are the runes representative of song lyrics? The song and the sword are one.

Possibly. Runes / Tunes? From the perspective of the ancients who passed down history in song form / oral tradition, I can imagine the runes on various artifacts and armor representing songs, reserved for those of importance like kings, since literacy was limited. 

Lamentation:

I really like this catch of yours, especially in the context of the sweet and sour songs! Consider this: Rhaegar was known for his sad songs that made women weep. During the tourney of Harrenhal he "sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle."  In effect, he sang a "lament". So if swords and songs go together, and the LOST sword Lamentation is a clue, then Rhaegar's song might well be the missing "lemon song," the bitter song that team Lannister seems to be preventing from being sung. In this scenario, Lyanna is the "sword" accepting Rhaegar's song. She really is the "sword" on account of her desire to take up fighting and defending Howland etc.  And to take that a step further - perhaps this is the song the Other's are "listening" for. 

 

 

[Evolett]

18 hours ago, Seams said:

Another thought on songs / swords:

A couple of the moments I found hokiest are when Jon and Arya say the name "Needle" and Jaime and Brienne say the name "Oathkeeper" at the same time. Why would two people come up with exactly the same name at the same time? Twice.

But these shared moments of inspiration make more sense if you think of two people singing the same song - of course they would know the lyrics and sing them simultaneously. Makes much more sense.

Oh, very good . And Arya is a sword and so is Needle, which also fits Lyanna being a sword. Symbolically,  Lyanna gets a sad song for her sword but Rhaegar also gives her blue winter roses at the tip of his spear. Could the spear be another needle? Maybe they are two separate pairs of symbols - songs and swords, roses and needles, unless the rose and the song are one, as in "the song of the winter rose". Lyanna loved the scent of blue winter roses. The scent of flowers attracts bees. Women find Ser Loras attractive, his flowery image has no negative effect on his manliness. I think the flowers are meant to attract, like a magnet. During the Ned's tourney, the Knight of Flowers' mare in heat distracts the Mountains's stallion but actually, the stallion is attracted to the mare. So we can think of the roses in terms of a magnet attracting a needle or better still, the song of the rose "charges" the needle. I'm getting two images here - one of charging a sword with a sad song and one of forming a possible compass rose.  

[TheLastWolf]

Big Bobby B was quite a singer himself when drunk (read most often) and look how he ended up too...

[Evolett]

Arya is a maimed Singer

While studying maps from the Lands of Ice and Fire, I noticed both Westeros and Essos have „hands and feet.“ The „hand“ of Westeros is portrayed by the „Fingers“ so named because of the set of narrow peninsulas resembling fingers. They are windswept, treeless, bare and stony and it rains a lot there. In contrast, the region to which the Fingers belongs, the Vale, is largely green and fertile. Jon Arryn, Lord of the Vale was “Hand” of the King. The imagery here is of a partially green hand with stony fingers.  

Dorne, at the bottom of Westeros, is shaped like a naked foot. And Dorne is mainly a desert, hot, arid and dry, rocky and mountainous broken only by a few fertile areas around rivers such as the Greenblood.

So, both The Fingers and Foot of Dorne are largely infertile and treeless, characterized by a lack of vegetation. In contrast to Dorne, The Fingers get a lot of rain, while Dorne being a desert is a sandy environment, predominantly rainless. The Fingers are a lot like Braavos.

From the examination of “gloves,” it seems the gloves are associated with trees and further, with fertility. The Glovers live in the Wolfswood, their seat Deepwood Motte, surrounded by trees. The Northmen who are part of Stannis’ army that take back the seat from the Ironborn disguise themselves as trees. Glover women seem to fail in health and fertility when they leave Deepwood Motte. The widow of the waterfront is given a pair of gloves by Jorah – for her old wrinkled hands, as she comments. Her wrinkled hands can be compared to the stony Fingers of the Vale.
There may be wordplay on “gloves” and “groves.” Now imagine the stony Fingers of the Vale reforested and covered by trees. The would be “gloved,” or “groved,” by a deep wood.
At the moment, only the palm of the hand is “gloved” with greenery and the Fingers are bare, ungloved = fingerless gloves. The Fingers of the Vale as they are at the moment, cut off from fertility and the trees can also be thought of as “maimed fingers.”

Arya’s treasure, the fingerless gloves thus represent maimed fingers.

She kept her treasures there: the silver fork and floppy hat and fingerless gloves given her by the sailors on the Titan’s Daughter, her dagger, boots, and belt, her small store of coins, the clothes she had been wearing … And Needle.

In classical music, an aria is a solo song for a singer in an opera. If Arya’s treasures symbolize certain attributes she possesses then the fingerless gloves tell us that Arya/aria is a “maimed singer.” There may also be a correlation between “fingers” and “singers.” In line with the “gloves” as “groves” or trees, there are three weirwoods at Highgarden named the “Three Singers.” The CotF are also “singers” and  they have only three fingers and a thumb. Perhaps Arya is a symbolic maimed child of the forest singer. Or in terms of the back story, the ancestor Arya represents was a child of the forest subjected to considerable harm.

One of Arya’s nicknames is Arya Underfoot. The soles of the feet are under the foot. The sole probably represents the soul. “Underfoot” is suggestive of being trampled upon, reinforcing the maimed symbolism. The foot in turn leads us to Dorne, shaped like a foot. Here we find associated Arianne Martell. And Nymeria – taking away the “Nym” leaves us with “eria” – or “aria.”

“Eria,” “Aria,” “Meria,” “Arya” are all versions of a godly name. Theon is the clue to this. A theonym is the proper name for a god. A while ago I considered Theon having to remember his name possibly had a deeper meaning to it. Perhaps he needed to remember a particular name but none of the combinations of his rhymes, yielded anything useful. And then I discovered the theonym and thought this must be the clue to the name he needs to remember.

A theonym, from classical Greek theos and -onym, is a form of proper noun that refers to a deity. The study of theonyms is a branch of onomastics.

Theonym – god’s name. Nym= name. Nym – eria. Name = eria / aria / arya. Theon must remember the name of the goddess. So does Jeyne. She must remember her name is Arya.

What’s not quite clear to me is if the ancestral Arya = Theon (Arya also being a boy and Theon emasculated – “I am not even a man,” Theon has maimed hands and feet). Westeros has a maimed hand and foot.

Just to expand further, let’s take a quick look at Essos:

Essos has a hand as well, or rather a “paw.” Old Valyria is actually shaped like a broken paw. Likely a cat’s paw. Like the Fingers, Old Valyria is a peninsula. The foot is represented by a boot or clubfoot type shape that encompasses Ghis at the heel and Slaver’s Bay with the cities of Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen dotted from south to north up the coast.

Arya and Catelyn are both named “Cat.” And Cat’s hand was slashed by the Catspaw with a Valyrian Steel dagger. Another maimed hand.

All very intriguing.

 

[Evolett]

In my previous post I propose Westeros has “maimed hands and feet” (the stony “Fingers” of the Vale and the “foot” of Dorne which is a desert) and show how these relate to the lack of fertility and/or green coverage, particularly tree coverage. I would like to explore this further by adding Garth the Green and Ser Duncan the Tall (Dunk) into the mix.

Strictly speaking, Westeros has “maimed Fingers” because the rest of the “hand” is as green and fertile as the Vale. While I’m fairly certain that the “fingers” are associated with tree coverage, the foot that is Dorne is less clear, though it appears the association here is with agricultural fertility rather than with trees, perhaps both. Amongst his various unfulfilled plans for Westeros, Aerys II intended to make the Dornish deserts bloom by building an underwater canal to the region. Blooming is a feature of flowers and of agricultural fertility, in my opinion, also expressed by the Rose of Highgarden, a major contributor to food production in the realm.

Highgarden brings us to Garth Greenhand. No doubt the name Greenhand is a reference to the “green thumb” of great gardeners and to his prodigious ability to turn Westeros into an agriculturally productive continent. Garth also enhanced the fertility of women it is said. Maidens ripened in his presence, barren women and even crones became fruitful, mothers brought forth twins or triplets.

The symbol his descendants take to represent their house is the green hand. Some stories say he had green skin overall or was dressed in green from head to foot but one thing is certain: not even Garth Greenhand could make flowers bloom in Dorne. The children had named it “the Empty Land” even before the coming of the First Men.

Even Garth Greenhand could not make flowers bloom in an environment so harsh and unforgiving if the tales told in the Reach can be believed. (Dorne’s own legends make no mention of Garth.) Instead he led his people through the mountains to the fertile Reach beyond. /tWoIaF

There is however evidence that Dorne was once fertile:

There is also much to suggest that the Sea of Dorne was once an inland freshwater sea, fed by mountain streams and much smaller than it is today, until the narrow sea burst its bounds and drowned the salt marshes that lay between. /tWoIaF

If so, this suggests the “foot” that is Dorne was once less of a desert, perhaps not at all. It also suggests that the region named Dorne experienced desertification well before the memories of even the CotF and in terms of the fertility theme in the books, Dorne has been “maimed” for a very very long time. This is important because GRRM’s narrative spans thousands of years, perhaps as many as twenty thousand years if we acknowledge the reign of the first “god on earth,” Emperor of the Dawn in Essos. The seasons have been out of sync for thousands of years as well, indicating the problem has its roots in events that took place long before events in the five book series. Garth Greenhand with his supernatural ability to induce fertility is part of the problem. I view the Dunk & Egg stories against this backdrop.

Dunk had the choice of having his hands and feet removed or participating in a Trial of Seven, no mean feat for a poor hedge knight without any connection to the nobility, except for Egg. Later Dunk will ask himself if his foot was worth a prince’s life and if perhaps the time will come when the realm will need that foot even more than a prince’s life:

“If I had not fought, you would have had my hand off. And my foot. Sometimes I sit under that tree there and look at my feet and ask if I couldn’t have spared one. How could my foot be worth a prince’s life?

Well, mighten it be that some morrow will come when I’ll have need of that foot? When the realm will need that foot, even more than a prince’s life?”

What’s more, he is put before this choice is for raising his hand against a person of royal blood, Aerion Brightflame, who broke at least one of Tanselle’s fingers. . Aerion embodies an extreme fire principle – his name, his temperament, his actions, even drinking wildfire to turn into a dragon speak volumes. He stands for an extreme summer, one that causes drought, desertification and hardship to mankind. Dunk beats him into submission, a first step and later, like Old Valyria, once the Land of the Long Summer, Aerion goes up in flame. Daenerys also embodies this extreme fire principle. In her wake the dragon dream, the soles of her feet melt the stone floor beneath her. Her intentions in Slaver’s Bay are noble but she leaves chaos in her wake. There are thousands of freedmen that follow her, hungry, starving and diseased. She cannot feed them. The Meereenese have burned their fields and she begins sowing new crops and organizing supplies, marries Hizdahr to forge a peace but during her stint in the wilderness she comes to the conclusion that “dragons plant no trees.”

So does Tanselle who manipulates the slain dragon puppet stuffed with sawdust represent destroyed tree coverage (broken finger, sawdust)? I think Tanselle  too Tall is the symbolic tree that the puppets dance /tanz from. It’s also significant the tourney takes place at Ashford Meadow, the name a contradiction in itself (green meadows that will one day turn to ashes or a crossing between blighted land and green lands).

 

I think Dunk represents the “unmaimed survivor” of an ancient people who lived before the First Men came to Westeros and whose culture practiced magic to enhance the productivity of the land, a magic that imploded on them in apocalyptic fashion, similar to the Doom, drowning their lands, extinguishing their “fire of life” and exterminating their civilization. The Ironborn originated from this destroyed culture, their god “drowned,” their knowledge of fertility lost. They ended up “maimed,” their isles are stony, they do not “sow” and now live off the sea instead, supplemented by reaping that which others sow (reaving). This is represented by Theon, a “greenlander” in his father’s eyes, symbolically drowned by the Damphair and who loses fingers, toes and manhood. The Grey King’s attempts to obtain fire by tricking the Storm God into striking lightning into a tree and slaying a sea dragon to make her fire his thrall are representations of trying to regain the essential “fire of life.” So is Euron’s desire to make Daenerys his wife and to obtain a dragon.

Dunk’s name is a reference to “dunking” as in to dunk under water, imo. Dunk takes numerous baths (dunkings). He likes to keep clean (including his intact hands and feet), perhaps indicating that he is “clean” or not contaminated by unnatural magic. He survives an underwater battle against Longinch, during which he nearly drowns / and is revived – like the ritual drownings carried out by the priests of the drowned god. Dunk the lunk – the lung that survives drowning.

Dunk’s sigil depicts an elm tree on a sunset field with a green shooting star above. This symbolizes the journey of the surviving ancestor to Westeros (sunset lands), following a star (like the first Dayne) to green lands. Amongst other things, the elm is a symbol of survival. Achillis survived drowning in a river choked with corpses by grasping the branch of an elm tree. Elm wood is known for its resistance to water and was used to make water pipes before metal pipes were invented. The Survivor Tree is a now famous elm that survived the Oklahoma City bomb blast in 1995 (the Hedge Knight was published in 1998).

Dunk sells his horse Sweetfoot and gives the buyer money to buy an apple (fertility) for her. We’ve seen that sweet things can be dangerous and deceptive. Cersei is Jamie’s “sweet sister,” the honeyed locusts are poisonous, the Blue Bard is made to sing a false “sweet song.” Melisandre – “melissa” = Greek for “bee”, “mel”= PIE meaning wrong, false. The sharp sweet blood oranges of Dorne fall and burst on the ground. Sweetfoot represents corrupted fertility, the kind bought with magic that can go very wrong. When Dunk sells her, he sells his claim to the sorcery involved in fertility magic.

Rohanne Webber dams up the Chequey Water to irrigate her fields, resulting in a lack of water downstream. The folk living there are cut off from the supply, fearing for their crops that threaten to fail. She’s rumoured to have sold her babies to the Lord of the Seven Hells in exchange for teachings on the black arts and it’s left unclear whether she ordered the fire that destroyed Wat’s Wood. She’s also “kissed by fire” and offers Dunk a red horse named “Flame” to make amends for the single combat “drowning event” that settles the standoff between Osgrey and Webber. These are thinly veiled clues to the manipulation of seasonal fertility cycles by the “spiders” in the back story. Lady Rohanne makes amends by offering Dunk “Flame,” but Dunk has already dealt with “Flame,” the summer extreme, in the form of Aerion Brightflame who yielded to him. It seems part of his mission is to eradicate or temper down the extreme fire principle. Instead Dunk takes a portion of her red hair to remember her by.

As I laid out in this comment, I think Tanselle eventually went to Winterfell and became Old Nan. Tanselle made her stories come alive through the actions of her puppets just as Old Nan makes her stories come alive for the Stark children and the reader. Hodor’s true name is Walder, a clue to Tanselle’s/Old Nan’s symbolic tree association (wald = forest).

 

I think the Dunk and Egg stories reveal quite a bit about the origins of the quirky seasons and represent the beginning of the process of healing the planet. Dunk’s appearance is a turning point, Egg his Targaryen pupil whom he re-educates, a step in the right direction and a start to resolving the problem over the next generations. Returning to Dunk’s “unmaimed” hands and feet that were worth a prince’s life – they /or perhaps only his foot/ were probably worth a very important prince’s life – saving Rhaegar’s life from the flames during the tragedy at Summerhall, especially so if a son of his really is the “song of ice and fire” that will restore balance to the seasons (and to the fingers and foot of Westeros).

  

[Seams]

What do you make of the maiming of Vargo Hoat? Tywin orders Clegane to do it since Hoat's men severed Jaime's arm. 

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When they brought it to him, he found that the Goat's lips had been sliced off, along with his ears and most of his nose. The crows had supped upon his eyes. It was still recognizably Hoat, however. Jaime would have known his beard anywhere; an absurd rope of hair two feet long, dangling from a pointed chin. Elsewise, only a few leathery strips of flesh still clung to the Qohorik's skull. "Where is the rest of him?" he asked.

No one wanted to tell him. Finally, Shitmouth lowered his eyes, and muttered, "Rotted, ser. And et."

"One of the captives was always begging food," Rafford admitted, "so Ser said to give him roast goat. The Qohorik didn't have much meat on him, though. Ser took his hands and feet first, then his arms and legs."

"The fat bugger got most, m'lord," Shitmouth offered, "but Ser, he said to see that all the captives had a taste. And Hoat too, his own self. That whoreson 'ud slobber when we fed him, and the grease'd run down into that skinny beard o' his."

AFfC, Jaime III

"You did for Vargo with that bite, you know. His ear turned black and started leaking pus. Rorge and Urswyck were for leaving, but the Goat says we got to hold his castle. Lord of Harrenhal, he says he is, no one was going to take it off him. He said it slobbery, the way he always talked. We heard the Mountain killed him piece by piece. A hand one day, a foot the next, lopped off neat and clean. They bandaged up the stumps so Hoat didn't die. He was saving his cock for last, but some bird called him to King's Landing, so he finished it and rode off."

AFfC, Brienne IV

Ser Gregor is one of my suspected "green" characters. One hint is the anagram "Gregor Clegane = Green Grace log" but he is also "The Mountain that Rides," the opposite of "The Stallion that Mounts the World" of Dothraki legend. Of course, Clegane's men kill the injured Lommy Greenhands. One of my old theories is that the killer (or eater of flesh) takes on characteristics of the victim. 

I suppose we also need to think about Lady Hornwood. Some time ago, I guessed that eating her own fingers was a way to prevent them from falling into the hands (so to speak) of Ramsay Snow. 

[Evolett]

20 hours ago, Seams said:

What do you make of the maiming of Vargo Hoat?

 

20 hours ago, Seams said:

I suppose we also need to think about Lady Hornwood.

The short answer - I think these instances of characters eating their own fingers, hands and feet tell us that Westeros "feeds on itself," specifically on its fingers and foot - the Fingers and Dorne. In other words, the magic that powers fertility and possibly extends the summer season in Westeros is drawn from these locations. Vargo Hoat eats his own extremeties and  the rest of the captives are fed as well (the rest of Westeros is fed). 

20 hours ago, Seams said:

"The fat bugger got most, m'lord," Shitmouth offered, "but Ser, he said to see that all the captives had a taste. And Hoat too, his own self.

 

20 hours ago, Seams said:

Some time ago, I guessed that eating her own fingers was a way to prevent them from falling into the hands (so to speak) of Ramsay Snow. 

That's what I thought too but it's probably more likely to be an analogy, or perhaps the point is she does it of her own free will. That's what we see with Theon. Ramsay does not cut off a part unless Theon begs for it, and he always asks because of the excruciating pain of flaying. In Dorne, the sandstorms are said to be so fierce that they strip the flesh from a man's bones within minutes. Interestingly, Littlefinger calls his single tower on the Fingers "the Drearfort," and the Boltons seat is the "Dreadfort." I asked myself why the author would choose a woman past her fertile years, basically a crone, as an analogy. Normally, the crone is a destroyer, bringing natural cycles to completion to pave the way for new life. Starving the crone and forcing her to eat her own fingers then symbolizes a continuation of the cycle without bringing it to completion?

At first my thoughts centered around the idea of drawing life energy from these regions to power others. Dorne borders on the Reach, the corn-basket of the realm and the Fingers border on the fertile Vale of Arryn, perfect placement. The World Book talks about sorcerers in the Reach?

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Once and always a great realm, the Reach is many things to its inhabitants: the most populous, fertile, and powerful domain in the Seven Kingdoms, its wealth second only to the gold-rich west; a seat of learning; a center of music, culture, and all the arts, bright and dark; the breadbasket of Westeros; a nexus of trade; a home to great seafarers, wise and noble kings, dread sorcerers, and the most beautiful women in all Westeros.

There is eveidence the author is using the Hawaiian / Polynesian concept of mana. I'm loath to write - here's a link to something I wrote some years ago in relation to the narrative.  In a nutshell, Polynesian cultures believed both living things and inanimate objects and locations are possessed of a spiritual force: mana. Mana could be gained through Ku, the god of war and thus through acts of war and violence in general, while the god Lono offered mana through acts of love or sexual relations. Royal incest, especially between full brothers and sisters, was believed to confer the highest amount of mana and thus status on ensuing children. Locations of volcanic activity were also considered to have high amounts of mana, indeed special places or objects could possess a lot of mana. I'm thinking the author uses this concept in relation to the Valyrians and mana as a source of his brand of magic. Sucking the life out of Dorne does not work because of its desert status even before Garth arrived.

So what could Dorne have that makes it a source of magic and made Westeros attractive to Garth as a location to carry forth the magical practices of Essos? I think the secret is the fallen star followed by the first Dayne. That would undoubtedly possess a lot of mana. And the clue could be the Greenblood - recall the Bloodstone Emperor worshipped "a stone that fell from the sky." The first god-emperor of the Dawn was carried about on a palanquin carved from a single "pearl". His reign was one of peace and plenty.   

The Fingers possibly have a potent mana feature as well:

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He owned a lot of rocks, just as he had said. There was one place where the tide came jetting up out of a blowhole to shoot thirty feet into the air, and another where someone had chiseled the seven-pointed star of the new gods upon a boulder.

I think Winterfell is another of these places, for obvious reasons. And the colossal Harrenhall with its hall of a hundred hearths as well, destroyed to deactivate it? How the weirwoods fit into this is a bit of a mystery. Large groves would be places of high mana. Garth planted the Three Singers at Highgarden and we know the CotF sing "songs of the earth." Perhaps the weirwoods serve as channels for the magical mana. 

 

[Evolett]

My last post comes across as pretty tinfoilly, I suppose . There are many missing links, even if I'm on to something and I do think I am. Vargo Hoat appears to personify the Black Goat god of Qohor. He wears the goat helm and delights in maiming people. Qohor boasts one of the few remaining intact forest environments in Essos. The World Book tells us Qohor supplies the towns of the lower Rhoyne with wood. The forest itself teems with wildlife of all sorts. Wood, furs and skins, tin, silver and amber are their major exports. The Black Goat god demands heavy sacrifices and in times of crisis, the highborn are rumored to even offer up their children. Then of course it is thought infant sacrifices are required to rework Valyrian Steel. Divination, bloodmagic and necromancy are whispered of and, also important, they produce finely woven tapestries. I can see Qohor securing its productive forests by way of sacrificing to their god and perhaps we are to connect his practice of maiming with sacrifices as well as to the foraging activities of the Brave Companions. Qohor does not seem to engage in organised agriculture. They make use of the forests by lumbering and hunting. That in turn can be compared with hunter-gathering or hunter-foraging, which is what Hoat essentially does. He hunts the smallfolk down, "forages" their crops and animals and "sacrifices" their hands and feet. If Harrenhal is a powerhouse of magic then it becomes clear why he insists on remaining there even after his followers desert him. His two-foot long pointed beard could carry meaning similar to Lady Stoneheart's hanging ropes that attach the damned to the trees - as a conduit for magic. 

Thinking about Harrenhall as a powerhouse of magic: There is the possibility that Aegon's fire treatment infused the building with magic. Dragons are thought to be a source of magic in the world. Their fire should be loaded with magic or "mana" as well. Perhaps stone is particularly capable of storing such a magical force. Enough "sacrifices" were made at Harrenhall during the building phase. So many died in the effort of its construction. Harren then invited all the builders to a feast to celebrate the finishing of the castle and had them all killed. He broke guest right as well. Aegon's blasting of the castle added numerous further casualties to the list. Perhaps Harrenhall being completely "overpowered" with magic is the reason why no House has survived there. 

Since there is a cost to magic, extracting magic from Dorne to the Reach could not occur without a price and I think Doran and Willas pay the price with their crippled legs. Vargo Hoat is also named the "Crippler," and actually, this applies to Oberyn as well. There is the matter of Edgar Yronwood:

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At the age of sixteen, Oberyn was found in bed with the paramour of Lord Edgar Yronwood, so the lord challenged him to a duel. The duel was to first blood, given the prince's youth and high birth, and both took cuts. Edgar's wounds festered and killed him. Oberyn has been known as the "Red Viper" ever since by friends and foes alike, due to rumors that he fought the duel with a poisoned blade.^[8] 

Edgar's wound that festers may be a parallel to Hoat's ear that festers after Brienne bites him. Then there is his involvement in the crippling of Willas of Highgarden. Oberyn does not cripple Doran but I do still see the "Picutre of Dorian Grey" analogy at work here. Oberyn's "sins" transferred to Doran. 

At Winterfell, Bran is crippled by his fall. "Bran" is also a reference to cereal grain. It's also known as "miller's bran." Bran's direwolf goes by the name of "Summer."  With geothermal activity in evidence, Winterfell may also be a powerhouse of magic that supplies the North. And perhaps this is why we get rumours of dragon eggs and a dragon living beneath Winterfell. The serpent-like creature Bran/Summer see flying off after Winterfell is burned may be a hint that this magic has "left" the location, or has been deactivated. Winterfell was able to keep "summer going" even in the depths of winter through the glass gardens,  the produce enough to feed the castle and the Wintertown. This may be  the analogy to Winterfell as a magical power house of fertility. The Hawaiian practice of transferring mana to the bones of their dead may also apply to the dead Kings of Winter.  By means of certain funeral rites, the bones of the dead were invested with mana so that their spirits could be called upon for future assistance.

In Hawaiian belief, acts of war and violence, love and sexual relations, so called pono actions, were thought to generate a lot of mana. Mana could also be gained by advancing politically.  I'll just quote an excerpt from my blog showing how the concept of mana relates to the narrative:

 

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Consider the traditions of the Dothraki, their penchant for war and violence, the slaughter of their foes, collecting of severed heads, the practice of rape and the immediate downfall of a leader who is no longer able to ride. The term pono also happens to appear in the narrative in the form of Khal Pono. The concept of mana also applies to the Valyrians of old, to the Kings of the North, the Ironborn and the Lannisters. Littlefinger’s rise from rags to riches is a prime example of gaining mana through the acquisition of political power. There are yet more similarities between this concept of mana and the story.

Littlefinger brings Harrenhall into focus again. Hailing from the Fingers as a proposed source of magic, his rise in power and acquision of titles, including Harrenhall may indicate he has gathered a lot of magic, making him a fitting Lord Protector of the Vale if the purpose is to keep the Vale green. I think we can determine how much mojo a House has by the number of titles the house holds. The Lannisters have bolstered their number of titles during the war, the Starks have lost theirs but no one has more titles than Daenerys. She has a staggering 11 in all. 

Vargo Hoat may be giving us a few insights but he was used by both Tywin and Roose for their dirty work and was a scapegoat. That's quite important if we could figure out the deeper significance. 

One thought I've had from this line of reasoning is that the magic of the Others may be responsible for keeping the summer going - for a price - and when humans default on their "payments" they turn up to "extinguish all light and life." And I don't think Craster's babies are the sole payment or that they are turned into Others, but that's another topic. 

[Seams]

Here's an idea. The land and stones are the bones; the topsoil and plant growth are the flesh and blood. So Littlefinger has The  Fingers but they are rocky and barren. The "other hand" may be represented by the magical Harrenhal:

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Harrenhal's gatehouse, itself as large as Winterfell's Great Keep, was as scarred as it was massive, its stones fissured and discolored. From outside, only the tops of five immense towers could be seen beyond the walls. The shortest of them was half again as tall as the highest tower in Winterfell, but they did not soar the way a proper tower did. Arya thought they looked like some old man's gnarled, knuckly fingers groping after a passing cloud. She remembered Nan telling how the stone had melted and flowed like candlewax down the steps and in the windows, glowing a sullen searing red as it sought out Harren where he hid. Arya could believe every word; each tower was more grotesque and misshapen than the last, lumpy and runneled and cracked.

ACoK, Arya VI

Maybe the dragon fire removed the "flesh" from the towers within Harrenhal. So, as Lord of both Harrenhal and The Fingers, Baelish controls both "hands" of Westeros. He just needs to put flesh on the bones - a reversal of Ramsay Snow's flaying process. Perhaps Ser Jorah gave us an example of how to put a covering back on boney hands when he gave gloves to the Widow of the Waterfront. (I have this strong suspicion that Ser Jorah is magical and he doesn't know it.) We also hear about both Jon Snow and Catelyn having hand injuries that have to heal over time.

Perhaps supporting this notion is that Ser Gregor's men killed Lommy Greenhands just before Arya and her traveling companions entered Harrenhal. The symbolism is that the greenery was gone, the glove was removed. 

But then why did he Littlefinger condemn Marillion to die, part of our series of maimed singers? We don't see Marillion lose his fingers. If I'm right that the "-LION" syllable in Marillion's name hints at Lannister lion symbolism, maybe the point is to prevent Marillion / the lion from singing. I do think that song may be an ingredient in forging Valyrian Steel. Maybe Baelish is trying the "reforge" Westeros (or the two hands of Westeros) without a Lannister song being included in the process. 

Looking at Marillion in the search website, I just noticed a detail where Petyr Baelish tries to get Sansa to take off her gloves so he can warm her hands, but she refuses. ("Take off those gloves, give me your hands.") Maybe the hand covering is the seasons. It seems as if Sansa represents winter (at this point, anyway) and she has covered the hand or hands of Westeros with white.

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Petyr Baelish composed himself, and said, "As you wish, my lord." He turned to his guardsmen and spoke a command, and the singer was fetched up from the dungeons. The gaoler Mord came with him, a monstrous man with small black eyes and a lopsided, scarred face. One ear and part of his cheek had been cleaved off in some battle, but twenty stone of pallid white flesh remained. His clothes fit poorly and had a rank, ripe smell.

Marillion by contrast looked almost elegant. Someone had bathed him and dressed him in a pair of sky-blue breeches and a loose-fitting white tunic with puffed sleeves, belted with a silvery sash that had been a gift from Lady Lysa. White silk gloves covered his hands, while a white silk bandage spared the lords the sight of his eyes.

...

... as the first light of dawn was prying at her shutters, she heard the soft strains of "On a Misty Morn" drifting up from below, and woke at once. That was more properly a woman's song, a lament sung by a mother on the dawn after some terrible battle, as she searches amongst the dead for the body of her only son. The mother sings her grief for her dead son, Sansa thought, but Marillion grieves for his fingers, for his eyes. The words rose like arrows and pierced her in the darkness.

AFfC, Sansa I

During her time at Harrenhal, Arya scrubs the steps in a tower. She also helps a Frey squire (her betrothed, unbeknownst to her) roll a barrel of sand across the lumpy courtyard to clean the rust off of Roose Bolton's armor. So there is a cleaning and repairing aspect to her work. Maybe this is part of restoring the "hands" so they can be rejuvenated. It's fitting that, when Arya masterminds the Weasel Soup release of prisoners from the dungeon, the first person leading the northern bannermen out of the prison is Robett Glover, whose sigil is a silver fist (presumably a lobstered gauntlet). 

Maybe there is a game within the larger Game of Thrones that involves covering a hand with the covering one prefers - moleskin gloves, fingerless gloves, a lobstered gauntlet, wolfskin gloves, green dye, a hand of gold.