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Star Trek: Strange New Gorns


SpaceChampion

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I'm really looking forward to this as well.

To the person from the last thread who is interested in SNW but hasn't watched the Discovery episodes featuring Pike - I urge you to do watch those since Anson Mount is really great in the role. And Spock and Number One are great as well.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm really looking forward to this as well.

To the person from the last thread who is interested in SNW but hasn't watched the Discovery episodes featuring Pike - I urge you to do watch those since Anson Mount is really great in the role. And Spock and Number One are great as well.

Yeah. Hard pass still.  Discovery has very little thatvappeals to me as far as a story goes. It's a miss, to my mind.  

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24 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

This show seems far more exciting than Discovery and Picard (whose S2 I haven't started).

It does, but trailers can always be put together well enough for me to think that. Pretty sure I thought Discovery looked better than the Abrams movies, then Picard looked better, and here we are.

Anson Mount was good in S2 of Discovery, but the plot was still a complete mess. I don’t think you need to know anything from that season (crash course if you’re interested);

Spoiler

As you probably know from TOS, Pike will one day be confined to a mobile …thing and be unable to speak. In Discovery, he went and messed with some time crystal dohickey and learnt this for himself. So about the only character trait and can see being carried over is that he knows his upcoming tenure as Enterprise Captain will be his last hurrah as a fully functioning human. He also, weirdly, knows he can’t die…? 

 

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2 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

It does, but trailers can always be put together well enough for me to think that. Pretty sure I thought Discovery looked better than the Abrams movies, then Picard looked better, and here we are.

Anson Mount was good in S2 of Discovery, but the plot was still a complete mess. I don’t think you need to know anything from that season (crash course if you’re interested);

  Hide contents

As you probably know from TOS, Pike will one day be confined to a mobile …thing and be unable to speak. In Discovery, he went and messed with some time crystal dohickey and learnt this for himself. So about the only character trait and can see being carried over is that he knows his upcoming tenure as Enterprise Captain will be his last hurrah as a fully functioning human. He also, weirdly, knows he can’t die…? 

 

Oh, the plot was defnitely a mess ... but the feeling and acting of the character wasn't. But then ... it might be that Mount's Pike was just such a great contrast to the weirdness of Lorca the season before that folks were really blown away by that.

But in principle I really don't get it why folks didn't think about a Pike Enterprise show from the start. I mean, if you wanted to go with that era then this would have been the obvious choice.

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Just now, Lord Varys said:

But in principle I really don't get it why folks didn't think about a Pike Enterprise show from the start. I mean, if you wanted to go with that era then this would have been the obvious choice.

Thing is, Anson Mount is a good actor, has the charisma for a Captain … but let’s not pretend the TOS Pike is playing an enormous role in informing how he’s portraying him. Mount could just as easily be captain of some other ship with some other crew. So I still maintain, as I always have throughout this misconceived Kurtzman era, that the setting was a mistake. Absolutely nobody was asking for a show set in or around TOS timeframe.

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4 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Thing is, Anson Mount is a good actor, has the charisma for a Captain … but let’s not pretend the TOS Pike is playing an enormous role in informing how he’s portraying him. Mount could just as easily be captain of some other ship with some other crew. So I still maintain, as I always have throughout this misconceived Kurtzman era, that the setting was a mistake. Absolutely nobody was asking for a show set in or around TOS timeframe.

Possibly my biggest issue with Discovery. It might have had more appeal if it wasn't tripping over well established territory. 

As for SNW, there is the chance, to me, that it could work more easily within canon, though the worry is to much temptation with Kirk and the others...

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47 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Thing is, Anson Mount is a good actor, has the charisma for a Captain … but let’s not pretend the TOS Pike is playing an enormous role in informing how he’s portraying him. Mount could just as easily be captain of some other ship with some other crew. So I still maintain, as I always have throughout this misconceived Kurtzman era, that the setting was a mistake. Absolutely nobody was asking for a show set in or around TOS timeframe.

I'd agree with that. But if they were going to do something with that era, then Pike's Enterprise and its crew would be the default way to go. Especially if you want to play around with Spock's family as they did.

But it was obviously a mistake doing that as they realized with their weirdo future retcon ;-).

Discovery is really a weird take on things, not sure how many mistakes they made and tried to correct during the run. The murder of the gay doctor, bringing back Michelle Yeoh, moving everybody to a different era, starting to use other bridge officers in the second and third season, etc.

47 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

As for SNW, there is the chance, to me, that it could work more easily within canon, though the worry is to much temptation with Kirk and the others...

I've no issue with Kirk showing up in a future season as they seem to intend to, but they shouldn't mess with things too much.

At least they have the proper TOS wardrobe in SNW.

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2 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

It does, but trailers can always be put together well enough for me to think that. Pretty sure I thought Discovery looked better than the Abrams movies, then Picard looked better, and here we are.

Anson Mount was good in S2 of Discovery, but the plot was still a complete mess. I don’t think you need to know anything from that season (crash course if you’re interested);

  Hide contents

As you probably know from TOS, Pike will one day be confined to a mobile …thing and be unable to speak. In Discovery, he went and messed with some time crystal dohickey and learnt this for himself. So about the only character trait and can see being carried over is that he knows his upcoming tenure as Enterprise Captain will be his last hurrah as a fully functioning human. He also, weirdly, knows he can’t die…? 

 

The spoilered bit is so nonsensical. 

Spoiler

How can someone be destined to suffer that specific fate? What prevents him from resigning or pushing to develop better warp core safety procedures that don't require someone to be irradiated? Plus as you said he's functionally immortal until then.

 

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Well, that Pike was effectively immortal is part of us knowing his ultimate fate. Spock was also effectively immortal in Discovery.

That said ... him knowing what's going to happen is still pretty weird.

Completely different thing:

Do you agree that the old TOS and TNG sets make the scenery more alien and weird than the random forest and real world environments we get in later shows?

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, that Pike was effectively immortal is part of us knowing his ultimate fate. Spock was also effectively immortal in Discovery.

That said ... him knowing what's going to happen is still pretty weird.

It's different thought because Pike knows how he's destined to end up. I think the klingon guy said his fate could not be changed if he took the crystal or something. So if Pike believes this, why not run through a romulan minefield to save a red shirt? His fate is locked in so he cannot die or be seriously maimed another way. 

Of course this is never how time travel was handled in Star Trek before, which is part of why it's so stupid. They could have just been vague about how he was dooming himself down the line. But it seems like they wanted to work TOS Pike's defining attribute into the series. 

Quote

Completely different thing:

Do you agree that the old TOS and TNG sets make the scenery more alien and weird than the random forest and real world environments we get in later shows?

Absolutely. Though I remember a lot of deserts. A desert just feels more alien to me than a forest. I guess it's too expensive to make an avatar-style really alien forest. 

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4 minutes ago, RumHam said:

It's different thought because Pike knows how he's destined to end up. I think the klingon guy said his fate could not be changed if he took the crystal or something. So if Pike believes this, why not run through a romulan minefield to save a red shirt? His fate is locked in so he cannot die or be seriously maimed another way. 

Of course this is never how time travel was handled in Star Trek before, which is part of why it's so stupid. They could have just been vague about how he was dooming himself down the line. But it seems like they wanted to work TOS Pike's defining attribute into the series. 

Would have to rewatch the episode ... but I guess we can dismiss Klingon crystal guy simply because he is clearly not omniscient. Weirdo time line watcher fake Laris from Picard also doesn't know Q, so what the hell does she know?

I'd expect that the show addresses this issue in the future and if they reach the point of the accident it will be a conscious decision on Pike's part to do this rather than him having no choice at all.

However, now I remember the episode and unless I'm mistaken it is really presented as an A or B dichotomy, so Pike really sealed his fate back then and supposedly won't be able to stop that. Which is really nonsense if viewed in this way.

4 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Absolutely. Though I remember a lot of deserts. A desert just feels more alien to me than a forest. I guess it's too expensive to make an avatar-style really alien forest. 

Even those weirdo TOS forests with the paper flowers have an eerie quality to them. It really gives the whole thing a feeling that there are different plants there. Also, in those sets you usually get different colored skies which also helps a lot imagining that they are on a different planet.

Just rewatched 'The Cage' and they have the Mojave Desert as a paradise landscape there, it being the place where Pike grew up. This was a great take on how Star Trek future earth was really cool.

When rewatching Picard I realized that the whole plot of Raffi being a drug addict really doesn't work for me. Yes, we can see how Oh and company would discredit her somehow and get her thrown out of Starfleet ... but the Federation is no capitalist society. She wouldn't lose everything she had and life the life of a bum. Also ... with scientific medicine being on a completely different level addicitions should be treated very easily.

Raffi could have been an eccentric/weirdo living on the fringes of 'normal society' but she would have still had no problem making a living.

Also - what do you make of Jurati getting off murder as easily as she did? I mean, she murdered one of her closest friends, and the take that the mind meld thing *made her do that* is at least somewhat problematic. I mean, the character is great and all, but perhaps they shouldn't have turned her into a murderer if they wanted to keep her around?

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I don't trust the writers of Discovery and Picard, when it comes to Strange New Worlds. They've shown us time and again, they're not interested in portraying Star Trek in a positive way. Even after the mostly positive tone of the first episode of season 2 of Picard, they quickly shifted us into a nihilist world, only for them to go back in time to the past, where it's also a nihilist world. I just don't understand why they're obsessed with only portraying Star Trek in a dark way. 

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42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Also - what do you make of Jurati getting off murder as easily as she did? I mean, she murdered one of her closest friends, and the take that the mind meld thing *made her do that* is at least somewhat problematic. I mean, the character is great and all, but perhaps they shouldn't have turned her into a murderer if they wanted to keep her around?

Yeah, I have so many problems with the writing on Picard and Discovery. Do mind melds even work that way? 

Also it seems if they wanted to keep her around they could have just cast her as her ancestor or some other random character. 

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1 minute ago, RumHam said:

Yeah, I have so many problems with the writing on Picard and Discovery. Do mind melds even work that way? 

Also it seems if they wanted to keep her around they could have just cast her as her ancestor or some other random character. 

The fact that they try to play that off as a joke, only adds salt to the wound, when it comes to her getting away with first degree murder. So why does Guinan have no idea who Picard is again? This really makes no sense to me.

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7 minutes ago, sifth said:

 So why does Guinan have no idea who Picard is again? This really makes no sense to me.

Quote

 

Terry Matalas explained to Inverse that “This Guinan wouldn’t remember Picard because in this alternate timeline, the TNG episode ‘Time’s Arrow’ never happened.”

Matalas has confirmed with TrekMovie that the way they are treating time travel is that even though they arrived before Q’s divergence in time, they are not in the Prime timeline; they are still in the altered “Confederation” timeline. This logic flows to other future instances of time travel, like Sisko going back to 2024 San Francisco (DS9 “Past Tense”) and Kirk going back in time to save the whales (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home). Matalas explained this in our article about bringing back the Punk from Voyage Home, saying “Star Trek IV wouldn’t have happened in this alternate timeline.”

 

https://trekmovie.com/2022/03/27/showrunner-explains-how-star-trek-picard-is-handling-time-travel-and-the-eugenics-wars/

It's an odd choice, but Q makes anything possible I guess. 

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3 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Not gona lie, reading that explanation hurt my brain. So in this time line, is Guinan basically a different person? I recall her being quite wealthy in the original timeline, when she was living on Earth and now she's being forced to close her bar in the current one.

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I just rewatched the pilot of Discovery. Yeoh and Sonequa-Green have great chemistry - they work as a team, the show should have been about them and their crew, not being retconned into another show two episodes later.

But, man, is there a lot of nonsense going on there. We have a star-like beacon which is seen in the entire galaxy a couple of minutes as Sarek is literally telling us ... and which is confirmed by the Klingon ships showing up. You guys do know that light and other waves do not travel faster than lightspeed, right?

But even if we ignore that ... why has Burnham to call Sarek to ask him about Vulcan-Klingon relations when they are part of the Federation and such information should be part of of the historical Federation databases? It makes no sense that she and Sarek have *special insight* into this matter - every cadet learning about Klingons should learn about the relations the Vulcans had with the Federation prior to its founding.

Not to mention that I still can barely watch some pointless Federation-Klingon war. If there was something we didn't need, then a show/season about that.

23 minutes ago, sifth said:

I don't trust the writers of Discovery and Picard, when it comes to Strange New Worlds. They've shown us time and again, they're not interested in portraying Star Trek in a positive way. Even after the mostly positive tone of the first episode of season 2 of Picard, they quickly shifted us into a nihilist world, only for them to go back in time to the past, where it's also a nihilist world. I just don't understand why they're obsessed with only portraying Star Trek in a dark way. 

I don't find it that nihilist or dark ... although I must say the pointless death of Will and Deanna's son in Picard was really quite pointless. A very bad and on-the-head plot device. You know what the real people would have done? They would have defied the fucking Federation and created a silicon thingy anyway. Or they would have left Federation space to do it where it was still allowed.

14 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Yeah, I have so many problems with the writing on Picard and Discovery. Do mind melds even work that way? 

Well, the implication is that biological people seeing the vision really drives them mad. I think part of the message is that the weirdo Romulans are acting the way they do because they are also mad to a degree, and Oh passed that madness on to Jurati when she showed her the vision.

One could also imagine that you can use a mind meld to mind-control a person to a point, especially if they are not telepathic. But it is never really established that Oh wanted Jurati to murder Maddox. The implication is more that she was driven to do this by her fears.

And while that is certainly technically forgivable in future paradise it is quite weird that we have bum Raffi on the one hand, and murderous Jurati on the other who got off the hook very easily.

14 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Also it seems if they wanted to keep her around they could have just cast her as her ancestor or some other random character. 

Well, I guess they liked her specific character more. I was rather pissed that Soji wasn't part of the gang suddenly - wasn't she THE WHOLE POINT of Picard's mission in season 1? - to have her actress play another character doesn't make up for that.

But then, I do hope that there is a point to both Watcher Laris and Soji Soong.

I think a telltale sign which might indicate that my idea about the whole thing ending with Laris and Picard becoming or being a couple in the end is the fact that Laris' husband apparently died in-between seasons. I had forgotten that the guy hadn't been killed by the Romulan assassins.

11 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Well, since Q messed with events, we cannot *really be sure* that apparently fixing the timeline via time travelling is fixing the issue. We don't know yet how it will end, but it is quite clear that our guys only know who they are because Q messed with the way how they perceive time and reality, so whatever.

But if it were to turn out that the change(s) only came from Q doing something in 2024 then there shouldn't have been a different timeline before that event - although, of course, the changes done in 2024 would have certainly erased all time travel incidents originating later.

In context, though, I think Guinan would definitely be entitled to have forgotten a meeting with Picard which took place a century earlier, especially if she saw him again as an old man. She should have recognized and remembered him once he gave her his name, but not before.

But Picard himself should remember that he once met Guinan during that earlier time travel incident since his all his memories from his reality were apparently preserved by Q.

The Bell riots shouldn't be affected by that at all if we go with a linear timeline situation. But then - with Q you don't really know. I'd be very surprised if the issue were resolved by the guys simply stopping Q from causing or preventing event X. It cannot be that easy.

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