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Star Trek: Strange New Gorns


SpaceChampion

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2 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

The thing about Guinan, for me, is the whole part about Picard knowing she was at the exact same bar in 2024 that she'd be at (again) in 2401 (or whatever the hell year it is now...) I mean, did I miss something from the first episode when Picard went and saw Goldberg's Guinan?  

 

(Oh, and for the record, whether it was necessary to have Guinan in 2024, the actress portraying 2024 Guinan is kinda awesome at it...)

She just really liked staying in that exact same spot for nearly  400 years, lol

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7 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

The thing about Guinan, for me, is the whole part about Picard knowing she was at the exact same bar in 2024 that she'd be at (again) in 2401 (or whatever the hell year it is now...) I mean, did I miss something from the first episode when Picard went and saw Goldberg's Guinan?  

Weren’t the coordinates they got from the Borg Queen the ones that lead to 10 forward? I have a memory that Picard was surprised to find himself there. Again, they could’ve just lead straight to the Watcher, but the wheels they must spin…

7 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

(Oh, and for the record, whether it was necessary to have Guinan in 2024, the actress portraying 2024 Guinan is kinda awesome at it...)

I like the actress but I get zero Guinan vibes from her. Not sure why she’s so nihilistic, when we saw her in the 1800’s she was still Guinan despite the rampant slavery.

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1 hour ago, sifth said:

So my friend is going nuts over the most recent episode of Trek.

  Reveal hidden contents

He says they do something like The Borg good guys.

 

Spoiler

They do. It's clear by now that the Queen on the Stargazer is Jurati having taken the long way round.

I'd like to see them do more with this once they get back to the present - that kind of collective is an interesting sci-fi concept that Star Trek's never really done much with, presumably because in a Trek context it would always be seen as "Good Borg".

 

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Spoiler

“OK we need ideas for Season 2. Maybe something less dour than last season.”

”…”

”…”

”Picard facilitated his Mother’s suicide as a child?”

”YES now we’re talking!”

”And the Borg, they could be like, good? Because you know, nobody ever took the time to talk to them and point out it’d be cool if they were good?”

This is my official weakest season of Star Trek ever. It’s a two-parter storyline at best padded out with complete guff.

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There being reformed Borg is actually one of the better ideas there.

But then - the way to get there was to actually tell us how the hell Borg actually developed and who or what the hell the Borg Queen actually is - assuming she is the person this whole thing started with (silly) and not merely a kind of weirdo emodiment of the will of collective (as it should have been).

The idea that one person interacting with the Queen suddenly convinces her that there is 'another way' is complete silliness. I very much like the Jurati character ... but that's like a baby telling a god what's the right thing to do. It shouldn't work.

Has anybody else the strong feeling that James Callis was a very bad choice to play Picard's father? It just feels off that this man should look like fucking Gaius Baltar ;-).

I guess my original idea that the season will end with a big change/retcon is now even more justified. Jurati is already gone, Rios is very likely to remain in the past, etc. And they now cannot go back to the future in the ship, so Q or some other super being has to send them back. And that might result in further changes - like Picard no longer being a robot. I don't even understand why he had to be a robot in the Confederation timeline.

Having Robo-Picard deal with his childhood memories also feels way off. That being the trauma he has to deal with after being a Borg and effectively dying and only existing in a robot body feels just weird.

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Just stumbled across the opening of Strange New Worlds on Youtube:

Not sure what to make of it. Modern Star Trek with the exception of Lower Decks has proven time and time again how much it sucks. This... looks like a proper Star Trek opening, even if horribly oversaturated and with oddly idiosyncratic music choice. It makes me feel like I... really don't want them to fuck this up again, but I am still extremely cynical about it, given how ludicrously dark and modernized this all still looks like. The actual trailers were also pretty mediocre so far.

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8 minutes ago, Toth said:

Just stumbled across the opening of Strange New Worlds on Youtube:

Not sure what to make of it. Modern Star Trek with the exception of Lower Decks has proven time and time again how much it sucks. This... looks like a proper Star Trek opening, even if horribly oversaturated and with oddly idiosyncratic music choice. It makes me feel like I... really don't want them to fuck this up again, but I am still extremely cynical about it, given how ludicrously dark and modernized this all still looks like. The actual trailers were also pretty mediocre so far.

They’re making all the right noises, that it’s more episodic, that they’ll flesh out the bridge crew characters, etc. But I guess we’ll have to wait and see (wait how long, who knows … Star Trek is only for Americans now it seems).

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59 minutes ago, Toth said:

Just stumbled across the opening of Strange New Worlds on Youtube:

Not sure what to make of it. Modern Star Trek with the exception of Lower Decks has proven time and time again how much it sucks. This... looks like a proper Star Trek opening, even if horribly oversaturated and with oddly idiosyncratic music choice. It makes me feel like I... really don't want them to fuck this up again, but I am still extremely cynical about it, given how ludicrously dark and modernized this all still looks like. The actual trailers were also pretty mediocre so far.

Here's how we'll be able to tell if it's good. When this intro airs proper, we'll be able to see how many producers it has. If it only has a few, it might be pretty decent, if it has 20 like Discovery currently has...............the odds get a lot more lower.

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On 4/29/2022 at 2:27 PM, Lord Varys said:

There being reformed Borg is actually one of the better ideas there.

But then - the way to get there was to actually tell us how the hell Borg actually developed and who or what the hell the Borg Queen actually is - assuming she is the person this whole thing started with (silly) and not merely a kind of weirdo emodiment of the will of collective (as it should have been).

The non-canon novels dealt with the Borg, their history, and their eventual removal from the galaxy in a far more bombastic, and far more Trek Believable fashion than anything they messed with on this show.

And Seven was saved by becoming Borg again?  Wasn't she going to be Borg once the timeline was restored?  And she tried to get into Starfleet, but they wouldn't let her because of her time as a Borg?  Yet Icheb got in?  Was it because he was only a teen at the time?  Bah.

And I don't see Rios staying behind, but I do see him bringing the doctor and her son forward with him.  Here's hoping there are some humpback whales too!

As much as I've liked some of this, I really need there to be a reset of some sort for season three, back to a more enlightened era of the syndicated shows.  And I realize to so that is to simply admit that the previous two seasons were essentially a waste of time...but if doing so resets things in a manner that allows a spin off out of Picard, be it with Riker or Worf or Seven and some of the Voyager peeps, so be it.

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On 5/1/2022 at 6:41 PM, Jaxom 1974 said:

The non-canon novels dealt with the Borg, their history, and their eventual removal from the galaxy in a far more bombastic, and far more Trek Believable fashion than anything they messed with on this show.

Never bothered with them. I don't really like the 'books are an alternative universe' approach ST has always taken. What did you like about that origin of the Borg? Was it something intriguing and complex?

On 5/1/2022 at 6:41 PM, Jaxom 1974 said:

And Seven was saved by becoming Borg again?  Wasn't she going to be Borg once the timeline was restored?

Technically one would expect that, yes. Unless, of course, the writers already know the timeline won't be restored exactly as it was and to have Seven as a Borg they have to reborgify her in the past.

After all, with Queen Jurati flying into the sunset there is a chance that whatever happens with the space mission ... the Borg might never become what they are in the main timeline. This whole thing has massive retcon potential insofar as the Borg are concerned (and thus also aspects of TNG and, of course, VOY). They could, of course, go with two collectives, one 'run' by Jurati and the other by the actual Queen, and have the two only intersect around 2400 ... but they don't have to do that. And I don't think they intend to do this, or else Queen Jurati would have accompanied them back into the future rather than staying behind doing her own thing.

Also, I think, we might end up with a better timeline than there were before. Evil Soong might have change of hearts once he learns what kind of future he would help to build and what his descendants would accomplish in the AI department. A way to resolve this could be a confrontation between Soong, Picard, and Kore.

This could result in Soong and Renée working together to build a better world, there being a synthesis rather than the Federation and the Confederation future as a clear opposites.

On 5/1/2022 at 6:41 PM, Jaxom 1974 said:

And she tried to get into Starfleet, but they wouldn't let her because of her time as a Borg?  Yet Icheb got in?  Was it because he was only a teen at the time?  Bah.

That was utter nonsense. Why not have her leave Starfleet like Picard did because of the whole Romulan thing?

This whole racist attitude towards ex-Borg also feels off somehow - not just because there aren't *that many* ex-Borg in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant ... but also because people would actually like to get friends and relations back whose personality was restored.

And Starfleet's attitude there is complete silliness, considering they allowed Locutus to become an admiral, basically.

On 5/1/2022 at 6:41 PM, Jaxom 1974 said:

And I don't see Rios staying behind, but I do see him bringing the doctor and her son forward with him.  Here's hoping there are some humpback whales too!

Well, for the movie they did that ... but Rios isn't Kirk and he was suffering from depression and a sense of loss in his time. I think his entire character arc is about him finding new purpose in the past. He likes it, how the doctor can still fight for something good, etc.

On 5/1/2022 at 6:41 PM, Jaxom 1974 said:

As much as I've liked some of this, I really need there to be a reset of some sort for season three, back to a more enlightened era of the syndicated shows.  And I realize to so that is to simply admit that the previous two seasons were essentially a waste of time...but if doing so resets things in a manner that allows a spin off out of Picard, be it with Riker or Worf or Seven and some of the Voyager peeps, so be it.

I think Seven really is the character they could and should go with in a new show. In a sense, it was already a waste of time to not have her as a main character in the first season.

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18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Never bothered with them. I don't really like the 'books are an alternative universe' approach ST has always taken. What did you like about that origin of the Borg? Was it something intriguing and complex?

 

The books, especially the last 20 years or so, the editorial approach was more comic book continuity in its way, and I think that was a good thing.

The Borg? Complex? Nope. A far superior race of beings is discovered by the crew of the second NX ship and through a series of mishaps and pre-Federation shenanigans, something goes awry and the being and the various humans from the Columbia are thrown through Space and Time...to survive, some of the advanced beings choose to merge with some human survivors and create the first Borg...the branch of the superior race, along with a couple of other human survivors also make their way back to the Trek present time eventually and they essentially decide to ascend a higher plane and they take their Borg cousins with them, essentially taking the Borg off the board for good.

It's bombastic, contrived, epic, and for me, it just works.  It then means the Yrek world can move on to the next thing. (Which would have made a much better template for the post show future that Picard wants to be...)

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30 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

The books, especially the last 20 years or so, the editorial approach was more comic book continuity in its way, and I think that was a good thing.

The Borg? Complex? Nope. A far superior race of beings is discovered by the crew of the second NX ship and through a series of mishaps and pre-Federation shenanigans, something goes awry and the being and the various humans from the Columbia are thrown through Space and Time...to survive, some of the advanced beings choose to merge with some human survivors and create the first Borg...the branch of the superior race, along with a couple of other human survivors also make their way back to the Trek present time eventually and they essentially decide to ascend a higher plane and they take their Borg cousins with them, essentially taking the Borg off the board for good.

It's bombastic, contrived, epic, and for me, it just works.  It then means the Yrek world can move on to the next thing. (Which would have made a much better template for the post show future that Picard wants to be...)

Ah, that feels like the kind of back story I really do not like.

The Borg are a very alien threat, so the one thing I'd not do if writing about their origin is connecting them in any way, shape or form to humans or Starfleet.

Rather I'd imagine a species whose cultural evolution would explain why they developed cyborg implants, why they felt they needed a hive mind, and what exactly went wrong that turned that hive mind into a mad conqueror. After all, there must be a fundamental flaw in the entire Borg system that causes them to all become mindless drones rather than the collective being constantly shaped and changed and reformed by every new voice that joins the chorus. I mean, if the Borg are right that the individual characteristics of every person/species that are assimilated are added to the collective then every assimilation should bring change ... yet there is no indication that this is the case.

If a writer really thought about this properly there is a hell of a complex story there.

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11 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Then we simply look at what can and cannot be done, and how, with this intellectual property differently. 

And there is nothing wrong with that.

But do you actually think that what I said couldn't be done with Star Trek?

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And there is nothing wrong with that.

But do you actually think that what I said couldn't be done with Star Trek?

No there isn't. And I do think there is room for some of what you suggest.  I personally feel the comic book storytelling editorial approach with Trek is a good one, but it doesn't mean there can't be more to it. However, I also don't especially trust there are people out there who can do that effectively within a specific Trek framework currently. Trek, as it exists now, can be done deeply, but it does require a bit of tightrope walking with fans and canon (see the Star Wars sequels). The best takes on Trek that delve deeper and sometimes darker or introspective are done outside of the actual Trek world.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

there must be a fundamental flaw in the entire Borg system that causes them to all become mindless drones rather than the collective being constantly shaped and changed and reformed by every new voice that joins the chorus.

The problem is that each new voice is just a drop in the ocean. New views and ideas are taken onboard, but they don't get to outvote the existing members of the collective. We're seeing more obvious change now in Picard with just two voices.

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I think it's clear that Queen Jurati is the Borg Queen that "attacked" the USS Stargazer in the first episode. Which means that the timeline won't be altered much, and that her collective is something else, different from the regular Borg Collective. 

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