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Star Trek: Strange New Gorns


SpaceChampion

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A few thoughts about SNW:

Rewatching 'The Menagerie' definitely establishes that Jim never worked under Pike. He just met him in passing when he was promoted to Fleet Captain, so whatever role Jim might play in the second season of the show shouldn't involve him serving on the Enterprise but rather include interactions with other crew members - one would think about his brother and Spock. In fact, they could depict their first meeting and the beginning of the their friendship there.

More importantly, despite the bleakness of the vision of Pike's ultimate fate there are ways around that. We don't know what kind of life awaits him on Talos IV nor how long it is going to last. The Talosians are a very advanced species, so it might actually be possible that he is going to be healed there. They could even combine that with a plot to rejuvenate Talosian culture - the kind of bleak pronouncement that interaction with them is going to infect others with the same kind of mental game decadence the Talosians were suffering from doesn't feel right to me.

Back to 'Picard':

That show really liked to kill people, no? Original Soji (which I actually think was the best character played by the actress), Bruce Maddox, Icheb & Hugh (which both sucked very hard!), Will and Deanna's son, Data, possibly Evil Soji, biological Picard, Elnor, Fake Laris, in a sense Jurati, Rios, and Q (sort of, since we never saw him die).

Most, if not all of them, sucked, perhaps with the exception of Data's death.

And speaking of Elnor - shouldn't he have been there in any case, regardless whether Q offered a surprise or not. If the gang are back right before the explosion then all people who still lived back then should also be back alive. After all, Elnor only died in an alternative reality.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A few thoughts about SNW:

Rewatching 'The Menagerie' definitely establishes that Jim never worked under Pike. He just met him in passing when he was promoted to Fleet Captain, so whatever role Jim might play in the second season of the show shouldn't involve him serving on the Enterprise but rather include interactions with other crew members - one would think about his brother and Spock. In fact, they could depict their first meeting and the beginning of the their friendship there.

More importantly, despite the bleakness of the vision of Pike's ultimate fate there are ways around that. We don't know what kind of life awaits him on Talos IV nor how long it is going to last. The Talosians are a very advanced species, so it might actually be possible that he is going to be healed there. They could even combine that with a plot to rejuvenate Talosian culture - the kind of bleak pronouncement that interaction with them is going to infect others with the same kind of mental game decadence the Talosians were suffering from doesn't feel right to me.

Back to 'Picard':

That show really liked to kill people, no? Original Soji (which I actually think was the best character played by the actress), Bruce Maddox, Icheb & Hugh (which both sucked very hard!), Will and Deanna's son, Data, possibly Evil Soji, biological Picard, Elnor, Fake Laris, in a sense Jurati, Rios, and Q (sort of, since we never saw him die).

Most, if not all of them, sucked, perhaps with the exception of Data's death.

And speaking of Elnor - shouldn't he have been there in any case, regardless whether Q offered a surprise or not. If the gang are back right before the explosion then all people who still lived back then should also be back alive. After all, Elnor only died in an alternative reality.

Ohh, if you're looking for plot holes from this show and TOS, I'm sure there will be more than a few. I'm just thankful we now have a show that feels like Star Trek. After the disasters that were Discovery and Picard, I'm just thankful for us getting a show that honors the tone of Star Trek, more so than the continuity.

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3 minutes ago, sifth said:

Ohh, if you're looking for plot holes from this show and TOS, I'm sure there will be more than a few. I'm just thankful we now have a show that feels like Star Trek. After the disasters that were Discovery and Picard, I'm just thankful for us getting a show that honors the tone of Star Trek, more so than the continuity.

Sure, but it is never wrong to think how things still might make sense, no? And Kirk not really knowing Christopher Pike is a very crucial plot point in the TOS two-parter. If they are respecting things, they would not go really against that.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but it is never wrong to think how things still might make sense, no?

I mean, we're punching the wind at this point.

If the writers decide tomorrow that Kirk had a half-klingon brother, it will happen.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And speaking of Elnor - shouldn't he have been there in any case, regardless whether Q offered a surprise or not. If the gang are back right before the explosion then all people who still lived back then should also be back alive. After all, Elnor only died in an alternative reality.

Yea this was all quite badly done; they made such a fuss about establishing that Picard still had a robot body, and then Seven had to get her exact same facial implants back from Jurati … only for it to be irrelevant. They’re all back in their original bodies anyway.

Why the hell did Q even bring Elnor, so he could be an ECH? When any other ECH would’ve done? That’s the greatest writing blunder of the season, there is no clear reason why Q choose such a convoluted path to his goal. There was nothing stopping Jurati talking the Queen round like 6 episodes ago, but no, we needed some plot. There was nothing stopping Picard having the exact same epiphany anytime and place really, but no, we needed some plot.

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but it is never wrong to think how things still might make sense, no? And Kirk not really knowing Christopher Pike is a very crucial plot point in the TOS two-parter. If they are respecting things, they would not go really against that.

 

11 hours ago, RumHam said:

I mean, we're punching the wind at this point.

If the writers decide tomorrow that Kirk had a half-klingon brother, it will happen.

I am perfectly happy interpreting the first two seasons of Discovery and Whatever Strange New Worlds does as creating its own canon. Parallel universe blah, blah. 

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11 hours ago, RumHam said:

I mean, we're punching the wind at this point.

If the writers decide tomorrow that Kirk had a half-klingon brother, it will happen.

Well, Kirk with a Klingon half-brother would, so far, not contradict any established facts ;-).

23 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I am perfectly happy interpreting the first two seasons of Discovery and Whatever Strange New Worlds does as creating its own canon. Parallel universe blah, blah. 

Don't think they intend to be incoherent. I mean, they went with the entire Delta ray accident of Pike's in Discovery and also have that as a crucial plot point in SNW. That's not something you do when you don't bother with established facts.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Don't think they intend to be incoherent. I mean, they went with the entire Delta ray accident of Pike's in Discovery and also have that as a crucial plot point in SNW. That's not something you do when you don't bother with established facts.

I loved those TOS episodes when I saw them as a kid (on a Black and White TV no less), but it never occurred to me that they were trying to establish a canon in the sense of how we understand it today. I guess I'm willing to forgive a fair bit in the way of TOS-SNW continuity issues as along as they make it good. If Kirk meets Pike at some point I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, Kirk with a Klingon half-brother would, so far, not contradict any established facts ;-).

Don't think they intend to be incoherent. I mean, they went with the entire Delta ray accident of Pike's in Discovery and also have that as a crucial plot point in SNW. That's not something you do when you don't bother with established facts.

I honestly think they're more interested in cherry picking established facts. They'll keep some, but remove others. I'd honestly be shocked if Pike even ends up in the chair at the end of this series. It just seems too predictable.

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5 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I loved those TOS episodes when I saw them as a kid (on a Black and White TV no less), but it never occurred to me that they were trying to establish a canon in the sense of how we understand it today. I guess I'm willing to forgive a fair bit in the way of TOS-SNW continuity issues as along as they make it good. If Kirk meets Pike at some point I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

I don't think they bothered much with continuity back then, but they tried later. And while I'm by no means an expert, I'm also not aware of any glaring inconsistencies in TOS.

9 minutes ago, sifth said:

I honestly think they're more interested in cherry picking established facts. They'll keep some, but remove others. I'd honestly be shocked if Pike even ends up in the chair at the end of this series. It just seems too predictable.

True enough, I only think they will get to the wheelchair if they write a proper conclusion for the series. If they end it earlier they don't have to revisit this thing, of course.

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14 minutes ago, sifth said:

I honestly think they're more interested in cherry picking established facts. They'll keep some, but remove others. I'd honestly be shocked if Pike even ends up in the chair at the end of this series. It just seems too predictable.

They spent so much time foreshadowing Pike's ultimate fate, I'd say it's possible this series will become a TOS reboot at some point. 

If they were concerned with continuity, shouldn't the klingons have ridgeless  heads at this point? 

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11 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

They spent so much time foreshadowing Pike's ultimate fate, I'd say it's possible this series will become a TOS reboot at some point. 

Yes, that's possible, although I'd say that it could then be a TOS prequel - the show doesn't start when Kirk takes over the Enterprise, he has been commanding it for some time, so there would be room for one or a couple of seasons with Kirk in command without that 'replacing' TOS as such.

11 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

If they were concerned with continuity, shouldn't the klingons have ridgeless  heads at this point? 

Yes, of course, that's shit, but design changes are just part of that. They happened all the time, although rarely in this radical manner.

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45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, that's possible, although I'd say that it could then be a TOS prequel - the show doesn't start when Kirk takes over the Enterprise, he has been commanding it for some time, so there would be room for one or a couple of seasons with Kirk in command without that 'replacing' TOS as such.

Yes, of course, that's shit, but design changes are just part of that. They happened all the time, although rarely in this radical manner.

Even if the show becomes a TOS reboot of sorts, you're right, Kirk had been in command for a bit as the original series started...but if that does happen and the show progresses, there is no reason it cannot eventually overlap the original story...then they could make some of that original continuity line up...

And really, thanks to Enterprise and DS9, they could have, or at least should have, both kinds of Klingons running around...not those Discovery types though...

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4 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Even if the show becomes a TOS reboot of sorts, you're right, Kirk had been in command for a bit as the original series started...but if that does happen and the show progresses, there is no reason it cannot eventually overlap the original story...then they could make some of that original continuity line up...

I honestly don't think SNW is going to (intend to) reboot TOS. They have their own cast, there might be guest appearances and stuff, but their goal isn't to make a new TOS. A show more like TOS, yes, but not a carbon copy or new version of it.

What I could see is that they might end up with a spinoff Kirk show, but even that they could do with first having him as a captain of another ship (with some of the TOS crew already there, say, Bones) only for him to eventually take over the Enterprise.

If they had a new Enterprise show with Kirk then they could, in my opinion, even jump ahead in the timeline and stuff, but they should try not to contradict any of the old episodes. It could be fun for such a series to finish the five year journey of the Enterprise under Kirk, for instance, and revisiting some of the old places or continue interesting plotlines.

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So yea, SNW was good. Agreed with most points here, like why on Earth wasn’t Discovery like this from the start. My only issue is still with the timeframe; I mean look at the discussion in this thread so far. Chapel technically can’t become a full member. Uhura needs to stay one. Pike needs to be paralysed. Sam Kirk needs to go to a planet to die. JT Kirk can’t really befriend Pike. Why on Earth you’d put such a straitjacket on events is just so weird to me. I mean what’s the positive side? That some old school fans go “huh, that’s cool” when they hear. We’re going off a nearly 60 year old pilot that didn’t get greenlit, so there’s literally zero transfer of character traits for the most part. Nurse Chapel is not playing Nurse Chapel, she’s playing a new character with some cache. 

We know little enough about this period that Pike (assuming we’re stuck with Discovery’s initial set up anyway) could easily have gone off and captained another ship. Full of people we knew nothing about, with all the usual array of potential futures and possibilities that most TV series enjoy.

Anyway. It’s not that big a deal, but I still feel like we’re stuck repeating the same events (did we really talk about a third TOS reboot?).

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5 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

So yea, SNW was good. Agreed with most points here, like why on Earth wasn’t Discovery like this from the start. My only issue is still with the timeframe; I mean look at the discussion in this thread so far. Chapel technically can’t become a full member. Uhura needs to stay one. Pike needs to be paralysed. Sam Kirk needs to go to a planet to die. JT Kirk can’t really befriend Pike. Why on Earth you’d put such a straitjacket on events is just so weird to me. I mean what’s the positive side? That some old school fans go “huh, that’s cool” when they hear. We’re going off a nearly 60 year old pilot that didn’t get greenlit, so there’s literally zero transfer of character traits for the most part. Nurse Chapel is not playing Nurse Chapel, she’s playing a new character with some cache.

Well, usally Star Trek doesn't kill a lot of the main cast, anyway, so knowing how Pike and Sam Kirk end up or knowing that Uhura and Chapel won't get killed doesn't change *that much*.

And there are interesting new characters to be explored her - Number One, the Khan girl, Sam Kirk (which we don't know exactly).

I certainly do agree that this isn't exactly the best era to make another Star Trek show - but that was already the problem with Discovery.

If they had wanted to make a silly war, then they should have gone back to the Enterprise era to cover the Earth-Romulan war, and if you want to make a kind of blank slate, the early Federation era could have been great, too, or as I said, about fifty years before TNG.

Or they could have just repeated the TNG stick and jumped ahead a hundred years into the future, possibly by picking up where DS9 left off, and showing us how the Dominion folks are joining the Federation, and exploration of the Gamma Quadrant is really taking up speed.

Or one could go with a really new thing (for Trek) and have either have a ship explore another galaxy or have them make contact with an extragalactic species.

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I think Kirk was aquainted with Pike, I think he calls him Chris in The Menagerie. 
 

The TOS pilot (with Kirk) is about a year into the 5 year mission according to the Chronology. The producers wanted it to be well into its mission rather than just starting.

The next episode is maybe about another year after that - new doctor, new uniforms, Sulu the helmsman rather than physicist.

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28 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

I think Kirk was aquainted with Pike, I think he calls him Chris in The Menagerie.

The two-parter establishes that he just met him in passing when Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain.

28 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

The TOS pilot (with Kirk) is about a year into the 5 year mission according to the Chronology. The producers wanted it to be well into its mission rather than just starting.

Yes, and one could use that fact if they actually want to do another Kirk show after SNW.

28 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

The next episode is maybe about another year after that - new doctor, new uniforms, Sulu the helmsman rather than physicist.

Sulu wears a lot of heads in the show, so that's not indicative of much.

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1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Having caught up on Picard's ending: Just when you thought Borg stories couldn't get dumber...

I also just caught up on that awful season of TV. I love how the Jurati-Queen wears a mask over her face when she attacks the Federation (so they can be friends!) just so the plot can work.

It makes a lot of sense to me now why they announced and aired a teaser for season three and how it was going back to the TNG cast before this season even ended. It worked too, there's no way I don't watch season three even despite this dumpster fire.

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