Star Trek: Strange New Gorns

[DaveSumm]

2 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Jesus Christ, Seven of Nine got chased by the cops before engineering a prison break for crying out loud. They even left a guy back there because, aw, help yourself. I'm sorry, but suspension of disbelief will only take me so far.

Yea but that was how it happened all along in PIC. They pre-destinationed it. I’m with @Jaxom 1974 , don’t make a prequel if you can’t keep canon straight. 

I’m not sure in this instance if they explicitly say in Arena that they’ve never encountered the Gorn … is there some wiggle room, like they haven’t seen one in the flesh?

[felice]

5 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

I could have sworn the first mention/appearance of the Gorn is in TOS.  Having them in SNW is a retcon then...?

Yeah, it's a bit of a stretch to make it fit. They don't recognise the design of the ship in Arena; it could just be a different class of ship from the ones in SNW, but I'd expect there to be enough similarities in technology to at least suggest a connection. And Kirk is clearly unfamiliar with the name "Gorn", which would require an implausible lack of familiarity with the Enterprise's history and major known threats in the region.

[DaveSumm]

Oh god I hope they don’t do another Discovery; “and so it’s agreed, all mention of the Gorn shall be purged from the record, and never mentioned again…”

[Jaxom 1974]

And honestly, it's such an easy fix. Pick a different species, hell, you could even reuse the Xindi if you wanted...or make up something new. Something new and make your own mark on the show.  

[DaveSumm]

Just rewatched Space Seed and Wrath of Khan as my other half hadn’t seen them, and Khan references seem to be coming thick and fast these days. Calling complete bullshit on this attempt to obfuscate the timing of the Eugenics Wars; it’s stated multiple times that it’s the 90s, that Khan was ruler of a quarter of the population between 93 and 96, that the exact class of ship they find them on was made in the 90s. And Khan is within earshot to hear all of this and from his point of view it was the 90s like, an hour ago. I think he knows when he ruled quarter of earth. McGiver also tells us that faster ships that negated the need for stasis came about in 2018. 

[SpaceChampion]

29 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

McGiver also tells us that faster ships that negated the need for stasis came about in 2018. 

Without warp, that part makes no sense.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Without warp, that part makes no sense.

No, that does make sense. The world of TOS is more complex than the silly retcon in First Contact. Back then, mankind went to the stars slowly, colonizing stars in the near vicinity without warp drive. Zefram Cochrane is Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri, not some greedy drunk dude played by James Cromwell. One imagines that they first used sleeper ships like the one Khan had, then later, perhaps generational ships going with impulse engines or whatever atomic engines TOS references.

It is a pity that they simplified to the First Contact scenario.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

13 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I’m with @Jaxom 1974 , don’t make a prequel if you can’t keep canon straight. 

Yeah well, my heart will go on.

[fionwe1987]

I haven't really seen TOS. Is it completely retcon and inconsistency free?

[sifth]

This was a really good episode, but again, why did the alien race attacking the ship have to be The Gorn. They could have been a completely new race and not screw with the continuity.

[IheartIheartTesla]

Finally caught up with all episodes of SNW. It was a slow burn at first, but episode 4 seems to be where it really hit its stride. This episode had a bit of the feel of TNG's 'Disaster', where you see the action taking place at different areas of the Enterprise; people working in teams or making tough decisions while weighing the 'greater good'.

As to the appearance of the Gorn, didnt really bother me. You need someone you have some familiarity with, cant just call them Species X and have the same emotional response. We barely (if any) saw them anyway, and I thought the episode did a good job of accentuating their menace while not displaying too much except in flashback. 

[Durckad]

On 5/29/2022 at 7:51 PM, fionwe1987 said:

I haven't really seen TOS. Is it completely retcon and inconsistency free?

No.

Watching TOS for the first time right now and it's barely consistent with itself. IMO, TOS should be used as more of a loose guideline where possible (while ignoring many of its dumber moments). This is not really a knock against TOS per se, it's simply a product of a much older era of television. The TOS movies are a much better 'era' to anchor Trek canon to (though ignoring Star Trek 5 is recommended), they are much more consistent in terms of how the universe and characters within it function.

On 5/29/2022 at 8:47 PM, sifth said:

This was a really good episode, but again, why did the alien race attacking the ship have to be The Gorn. They could have been a completely new race and not screw with the continuity.

Personally, I'd rather they use and expand upon an existing race rather than just inventing another one whole cloth, especially in a prequel show such as this. Even if it doesn't 100% comport with existing canon. That was one of my issues with Enterprise, introducing these 'new' alien races that are very important to the story of the show, but are never mentioned again afterwards.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Durckad said:

No.

Watching TOS for the first time right now and it's barely consistent with itself. IMO, TOS should be used as more of a loose guideline where possible (while ignoring many of its dumber moments). This is not really a knock against TOS per se, it's simply a product of a much older era of television. The TOS movies are a much better 'era' to anchor Trek canon to (though ignoring Star Trek 5 is recommended), they are much more consistent in terms of how the universe and characters within it function.

Personally, I'd rather they use and expand upon an existing race rather than just inventing another one whole cloth, especially in a prequel show such as this. Even if it doesn't 100% comport with existing canon. That was one of my issues with Enterprise, introducing these 'new' alien races that are very important to the story of the show, but are never mentioned again afterwards.

TOS isn't *that* inconsistent. The biggest contradiction is that the Federation isn't there from the start, and they originally talk only about United Earth.

And overall it isn't that hard to demand that folks elaborating on element X from TOS actually stick to how it was introduced in that show. The biggest diversion in my opinion is the simplified retcon version of how humanity first travelled to the stars. Thanks to the First Contact movie that's now all because of drunk Cochrane and the Vulcans ... whereas TOS clearly paints a picture of space exploration starting in the late 20th and early 21st century long before the warp drive was invented. There are many references in TOS to earlier, more primitive space ships ... and all that makes little and less sense in light of the scenario given in First Contact.

SNW picked up one of the races from Enterprise with the Illyrians, and one hopes that the Suliban, the Denobulans, and others make an appearance there, too. It is a pity that Discovery's first two seasons didn't seem to take any inspiration from Enterprise.

On 5/30/2022 at 3:47 AM, sifth said:

This was a really good episode, but again, why did the alien race attacking the ship have to be The Gorn. They could have been a completely new race and not screw with the continuity.

I think the issues are not that problematic there. Yes, Kirk should know more about the Gorn in TOS, but so far they didn't see the Gorn in SNW and thus this can kind of work. The big surprise is how they look, not so much the name. And one certainly can pretend that Pike's crew meets the Gorn in a different part of the galaxy than Kirk does during his mission ... meaning neither they nor the colonists actually expected to meet the Gorn there.

TOS certainly also messed around with something like that with the Romulan looks. Is it really believable that Spock and other Vulcan dignitaries never told the other Federation members how the Romulans look like? I don't think so.

[maarsen]

11 hours ago, Durckad said:

No.

Watching TOS for the first time right now and it's barely consistent with itself. IMO, TOS should be used as more of a loose guideline where possible (while ignoring many of its dumber moments). This is not really a knock against TOS per se, it's simply a product of a much older era of television. The TOS movies are a much better 'era' to anchor Trek canon to (though ignoring Star Trek 5 is recommended), they are much more consistent in terms of how the universe and characters within it function.

Personally, I'd rather they use and expand upon an existing race rather than just inventing another one whole cloth, especially in a prequel show such as this. Even if it doesn't 100% comport with existing canon. That was one of my issues with Enterprise, introducing these 'new' alien races that are very important to the story of the show, but are never mentioned again afterward.

 

When TOS was being created, you have to remember that resources and special effects were limited and the show was canceled after the second season. Fan mail brought it back for a 3rd season but CBS was determined to kill it and did. It was a hardscrabble existence and getting everything perfect was not an option.

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I think the issues are not that problematic there. Yes, Kirk should know more about the Gorn in TOS, but so far they didn't see the Gorn in SNW and thus this can kind of work. The big surprise is how they look, not so much the name. And one certainly can pretend that Pike's crew meets the Gorn in a different part of the galaxy than Kirk does during his mission ... meaning neither they nor the colonists actually expected to meet the Gorn there.

Yeah, this works if we assume no one ever asked about the taxidermied(?) Gorn in Lorca's office. Probably still would have been there when Pike took temporary command.

Plus like where did he get it? Kinda crazy to argue he brought it with him from the mirror universe. So the implication would be that prior to Micheal boarding, the Discovery had encountered at least one Gorn.

Contradictions with TOS are understandable. Contradicting a show that came out a few years ago, less so.

Caught up with SNW after taking a Halo break.  I like it so far. When Pike called up Spock at the worst possible moment I was thinking "The poor guy only gets to have sex every seven years and you ruined it!" Looks like next weeks episode is related to that as it's called "Spock Amok"

 

[Durckad]

19 minutes ago, maarsen said:

 

When TOS was being created, you have to remember that resources and special effects were limited and the show was canceled after the second season. Fan mail brought it back for a 3rd season but CBS was determined to kill it and did. It was a hardscrabble existence and getting everything perfect was not an option.

Oh I'm certainly not faulting it for how and the conditions under which it was created, just that, as a result of those conditions, it may not be best anchor to tie a strict canon to. It was being made up as they went along.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, RumHam said:

Yeah, this works if we assume no one ever asked about the taxidermied(?) Gorn in Lorca's office. Probably still would have been there when Pike took temporary command.

LOL, I had forgotten about that. But then - little to nothing in the first season of Discovery cared about what had been established in the earlier shows.

[Corvinus85]

Another good episode. If Pike keeps going like this, he might just become my favorite captain.

[Jaxom 1974]

"Hijinks"...

 

(Oh, and the complete ret-con of Nurse Chapel...referred to as "Nurse Chapel" in this episode, continues apace...)

Edited June 2, 2022 by Jaxom 1974

[DaveSumm]

5 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

"Hijinks"...

 

(Oh, and the complete ret-con of Nurse Chapel...referred to as "Nurse Chapel" in this episode, continues apace...)

Yep, I’m really enjoying everything about SNW except its existence as a prequel. Great to know Nurse Chapel will in a few years become a weakly written background character who occasionally comes to prominence because of how she feels about a man.