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Star Trek: Strange New Gorns


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On 6/17/2022 at 1:55 AM, Durckad said:
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Well, looks like all of you Sybok-stans got your wish, the 'bok is back! And Star Trek V is now canon.

Congratulations and condolences in equal measures.

Not a bad episode, probably tied for my least favorite. Still, SNW continues to be incredibly solid quality wise. When something like this is one of the 'weaker' episodes, things are looking up Millhouse!

Wasn't it always canon? 

Final Frontier sucked big time, of course, but I've always thought Sybok was a really interesting character concept and that it would be great to hwve him redone.

Who do you think they should cast (I assume for season 2)? 

Trek Report asked the same question on Twitter and there were some interesting fancasting suggestions, some weird ones (a few people suggesting Zachary Quinto) and completely ridiculous ones (one person even suggested Timothy Dalton, who's old enough to be James Frain's father). Most of the suggestions skewed older on the "older than Peck but not noticeably older than Frain" range, which may be because people haven't thought it through, since you could more easily get away with the actor being Peck's age or younger (we don't know the characters' age difference,  but while Spock is aging slower than humans, he might be aging faster than full Vulcams) while Sybok looking older than his dad would be hard to explain.

The best suggestion I've seen there is Tom Ellis. Sam Witwer has meanwhile been tweeting he'd love to play Sybok, but I've only seen him on BSG and don't really know much about him as actor.

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53 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Sam Witwer has meanwhile been tweeting he'd love to play Sybok, but I've only seen him on BSG and don't really know much about him as actor.

Witwer is a great voice actor, fairly heavily involved with Star Wars. He voiced Darth Maul in the animated shows, and the main character from the Force Unleashed games where they also used his likeness. I've seen in some smaller live-action SF shows, too. If he is a big enough fan of Star Trek, he will likely eagerly immerse himself in such a role.

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3 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Terrific finale, although one thing that felt odd to me; I got zero Kirk vibes from that actor. He still did a fine job, and I’m not looking for a Shatner impression or anything. But his whole demeanour seemed like a different character. 

I think it’d be good to bench the ‘Pike’s fate’ part of the plot for a season now. Feels like everything is in place for Pike to make his peace with it; he’s witnessed that the least destructive act is to simply accept it and let it happen. Is the show kinda stuck with that as a crucial part of the ultimate finale now? It’d be interesting to see if they can still make something unexpected out of it.

Also I’m wondering if it’d break canon for Pike to find out that he’ll ultimately go back to Talos and live happily ever after? Seeing as he’s got time crystals and future selves to spare…

What are Kirk vibes, though?

A lot of the times people mistake Kirk's personality for Shatner's. Even Trek movies sometimes do that. Like the joke in The Undiscovered Country "Must have been your lifelong dream" - that's a joke about Shatner, not Kirk. And the new movies had Chris Pine play, at least to start off, a popular perception of Kirk as a super impulsive guy and a huge womanizer, rather than canon TOS Kirk. But they did have some leeway with the alternative timeline, and toned it down later.

So, if he seems like a different character, which version is he different from?

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I feel like Paul Wesley's Kirk is pretty similar to the TOS Kirk in terms of personality, but he's not trying to do a Shatner impersonation and he's certainly not doing a Pine impersonation. The actor himself feels his interpretation of Kirk is fairly loose but falls in between both the Shatner and Pine versions.

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9 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

What are Kirk vibes, though?

A lot of the times people mistake Kirk's personality for Shatner's. Even Trek movies sometimes do that. Like the joke in The Undiscovered Country "Must have been your lifelong dream" - that's a joke about Shatner, not Kirk. And the new movies had Chris Pine play, at least to start off, a popular perception of Kirk as a super impulsive guy and a huge womanizer, rather than canon TOS Kirk. But they did have some leeway with the alternative timeline, and toned it down later.

So, if he seems like a different character, which version is he different from?

TOS Kirk was not 'impulsive' but he was a risk taker, a rule breaker when the situation dicated it, and he was a womanizer, often deploying his Kirk/Shatner charisma to get the best of various females.

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52 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

TOS Kirk was not 'impulsive' but he was a risk taker, a rule breaker when the situation dicated it, and he was a womanizer, often deploying his Kirk/Shatner charisma to get the best of various females.

TOS Kirk likes to flirt a lot, and uses that to the advantage of 'the mission' ... but those are never serious romances and rarely even one night stands. Kirk is married to the Enterprise, and she is a jealous mistress.

As a character that makes him almost celibatory, because it rarely leads to anything at all. And even if he does fuck somebody - or it is implied that he does - it can never last. I mean, early on it is implied that he really is drawn to Janice Rand in a more serious way ... but he cannot act on that because it is either the ship or a serious relationship. And the ship always wins. All the other women are just meaningless distractions aside from some flames from his past before he married the Enterprise when he became captain.

That is a completely different character than JJ Kirk.

56 minutes ago, Ran said:

I feel like Paul Wesley's Kirk is pretty similar to the TOS Kirk in terms of personality, but he's not trying to do a Shatner impersonation and he's certainly not doing a Pine impersonation. The actor himself feels his interpretation of Kirk is fairly loose but falls in between both the Shatner and Pine versions.

I think he kind of nailed how a non-Enterprise Kirk would be at that time. Still fairly confident, compentent, and in control ... but not exactly the kind of guy he would have become had he been given command of the flagship.

Edited by Lord Varys
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36 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

What are Kirk vibes, though?

A lot of the times people mistake Kirk's personality for Shatner's. Even Trek movies sometimes do that. Like the joke in The Undiscovered Country "Must have been your lifelong dream" - that's a joke about Shatner, not Kirk. And the new movies had Chris Pine play, at least to start off, a popular perception of Kirk as a super impulsive guy and a huge womanizer, rather than canon TOS Kirk. But they did have some leeway with the alternative timeline, and toned it down later.

So, if he seems like a different character, which version is he different from?

I think it’s charm. Kirk of all iterations would be cool as a cucumber for most situations, and be able to smooth over a tense environment with an easy smile. I just didn’t get much warmth from this portrayal. He seemed a very confident and capable captain, but more in a technical sense than had anything to do with his personality.

Shatner and Pine both gave Kirk a kind of swagger, like he found Captaining easier than most.

ETA: although yea, @Lord Varys makes a good point that this is an Enterprise-less Kirk, maybe they were trying for some daylight between the versions.

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Insofar as characters go I think pretty much all casting choices are excellent. Anson Mount now *is* Christopher Pike, body and soul.

Ethan Peck works as a younger version of Spock, young Uhuru is fine as well, ditto Christine Chapel (there the writing is somewhat off, but the character is great). And Rebecca Romijin was basically the perfect casting for number

10 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

In the prime timeline, at some point prior to Kirk getting the Enterprise, his brother Sam had retured to Deneva III and was, I believe, killed there in one of the final episodes of season one...

Timeline-wise this happens after 'Balance of Terror' - but we can certainly imagine that Pike not having an accident might lead to Sam not returning or moving to Deneva III.

If they keep Sam as a recurring character I'd like to see them introduce him to his future wife.

Just as I want to see how dashing and brilliant Roger Korby is going to erase the mental image of Spock from Chapel's mind ;-).

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My favorite characters in SNW are La'an and Erica so far. I really like Erica's cocky super pilot attitude and La'an seems to be a kind of fresh take on the role of Tasha Yar from TNG.

Hopefully the cliffhanger resolves itself with the Federation overcoming the its silly bias against other species genetic augmentations. I mean, they cannot do away with the ban completely since it is very much in place in DS9 ... but they could at least not punish people who were genetically altered and allow them to become Federation citizens and join Starfleet if they meet the standards.

Anything else is just some kind of weirdo apartheid regime.

 

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

TOS Kirk was not 'impulsive' but he was a risk taker, a rule breaker when the situation dicated it

Just as he was in this episode.

Quote

, and he was a womanizer, often deploying his Kirk/Shatner charisma to get the best of various females.

Using charm to get people to do something you want that is not about having sex with them does not make you a womanizer (or whatever the opposite gender version of that would be called).

If he was a womanizer, he'd be always looking to seduce women for pleasure, and he doesn't really. He has ongoing UST with Janice Rand, but nothing ever happens because he knows it's forbidden as she is a member of his crew. (Which makes him either more ethical in that aspect or more in control of himself than Picard, who, in a similar situation, did get involved with a crew member, and she decided to transfer as a result of their relationship in the end.) He doesn't have any longer relationships as the captain, so flings are all he can have (they aren't staying in any place for a long time), but he doesn't even have that many flings or one night stands in TOS when you count it.

The one time he falls seriously in love, in a time travel story (City on the Edge of Forever), it ends tragically (because it must, on the show, and it also makes for a great tragic story for Kirk to have to choose the fate of the world over his own happiness). In The Naked Time, Kirk's emotional outburst shows he'd love to have a relationship, but feels it's impossible because it's either that or being the captain of Enterprise, and The Paradise Syndrome shows a Kiek who's lost his memories living happily in a Native American community with a wife and family - which implies that this is something he would actually want if he wasn't a captain of a spaceship.

And it's not like Kirk had any opportunity to use charm to solve any situation here, did it? He was not in conflict with Pike. And charm would not have worked on the Romulan praetor threatening them even if he had talked to her. (Spock's charm did work on a Romulan Commander in TOS, though. But that was a different situation.)

 

Edited by Annara Snow
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5 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Just as he was in this episode.

Using charm to get people to do something you want that is not about having sex with them does not make you a womanizer (or whatever the opposite gender version of that would be called).

If he was a womanizer, he'd be always looking to seduce women for pleasure, and he doesn't really. He has ongoing UST with Janice Rand, but nothing ever happens because he knows it's forbidden as she is a member of his crew. (Which makes him either more ethical in that aspect or more in control of himself than Picard, who, in a similar situation, did get involved with a crew member, and she decided to transfer as a result of their relationship in the end.) He doesn't have any longer relationships as the captain, so flings are all he can have (they aren't staying in any place for a long time), but he doesn't even have that many flings or one night stands in TOS when you count it.

The one time he falls seriously in love, in a time travel story (City on the Edge of Forever), it ends tragically (because it must, on the show, and it also makes for a great tragic story for Kirk to have to choose the fate of the world over his own happiness). In The Naked Time, Kirk's emotional outburst shows he'd love to have a relationship, but feels it's impossible because it's either that or being the captain of Enterprise, and The Paradise Syndrome shows a Kiek who's lost his memories living happily in a Native American community with a wife and family - which implies that this is something he would actually want if he wasn't a captain of a spaceship.

And it's not like Kirk had any opportunity to use charm to solve any situation here, did it? He was not in conflict with Pike. And charm would not have worked on the Romulan praetor threatening them even if he had talked to her. (Spock's charm did work on a Romulan Commander in TOS, though. But that was a different situation.)

Pretty much that. I wrote something similar above.

Kirk is basically based on the role of the lonesome cowboy who can never stay in the town he visits, never mind how great the woman there is.

It is kind of representative of the era and its backwater ways (which, I think, are still kind of visible in modern-day American practices of companies presuming the regulate the sex and romantic lives of their employees).

In a big ship like the Enterprise a captain should be able to have a romantic/sexual relationship with some of the people there. It does make sense that they would not encourage officers in the direct chain of command to have a romantic relationship (although casual sex shouldn't be a problem) but the idea that you cannot have a relationship with anyone on a ship this size is ludicrous. This wouldn't be a better version of mankind if people were still like children, unable to separate their private and professional lives.

And this nonsense continues right into the Voyager era.

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15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Pretty much that. I wrote something similar above.

Kirk is basically based on the role of the lonesome cowboy who can never stay in the town he visits, never mind how great the woman there is.

It is kind of representative of the era and its backwater ways (which, I think, are still kind of visible in modern-day American practices of companies presuming the regulate the sex and romantic lives of their employees).

In a big ship like the Enterprise a captain should be able to have a romantic/sexual relationship with some of the people there. It does make sense that they would not encourage officers in the direct chain of command to have a romantic relationship (although casual sex shouldn't be a problem) but the idea that you cannot have a relationship with anyone on a ship this size is ludicrous. This wouldn't be a better version of mankind if people were still like children, unable to separate their private and professional lives.

And this nonsense continues right into the Voyager era.

It is the Jedi doctrine. ;)

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3 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Wasn't it always canon? 

I'm sure it was and that it was never specifically de-canonized, though I don't think any other piece of Trek before this has directly referenced either Sybok or the events of the movie. Kind of a soft decanonization, maybe.

And I like Star Trek V. It's silly and dumb, but I find it pretty fun overall. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Insofar as characters go I think pretty much all casting choices are excellent. Anson Mount now *is* Christopher Pike, body and soul.

Ethan Peck works as a younger version of Spock, young Uhuru is fine as well, ditto Christine Chapel (there the writing is somewhat off, but the character is great). And Rebecca Romijin was basically the perfect casting for number

Timeline-wise this happens after 'Balance of Terror' - but we can certainly imagine that Pike not having an accident might lead to Sam not returning or moving to Deneva III.

If they keep Sam as a recurring character I'd like to see them introduce him to his future wife.

Just as I want to see how dashing and brilliant Roger Korby is going to erase the mental image of Spock from Chapel's mind ;-).

Oh sure. I have no issues with Sam being on the Enterprise in a future where Pike isn't injured...

And ad to the cast, there really aren't any misses here.  There may be some canon issues, but the actors in the roles are fantastic. 

 

SIDE NOTE: Wil Wheaton's Ready Room is just the best post show show there us out there. 

Edited by Jaxom 1974
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1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

I think it’s charm. Kirk of all iterations would be cool as a cucumber for most situations, and be able to smooth over a tense environment with an easy smile. I just didn’t get much warmth from this portrayal. He seemed a very confident and capable captain, but more in a technical sense than had anything to do with his personality.

Shatner and Pine both gave Kirk a kind of swagger, like he found Captaining easier than most.

ETA: although yea, @Lord Varys makes a good point that this is an Enterprise-less Kirk, maybe they were trying for some daylight between the versions.

You don't think Kirk's personality isn't in some way influenced by those he's surround by?  I think Shatner's portrayal of Kirk is as influenced by his veing about Spock and McCoy, Scott and Uhura, as anything else. 

This version of Kirk in Pike's flash forward doesn't have those colleagues influencing him. He had La'an.  (My least favorite character actually. Something feels off with the character.)

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35 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Wil Wheaton's Ready Room is just the best post show show there us out there. 

They should have Wesley show up on SNW at some point due to timey-wimey stuff. Although I see Picard sort of half-assed did it (I say half-assed because Wesley doesn't actually meet Picard, which is kind of lame!)

29 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

He had La'an.  (My least favorite character actually. Something feels off with the character.)

I like La'an but she's a bit of a cliché right now. Also, for some reason the actress and her styling reminds me a hell of a lot of Cara Gee as Camina Drummer, but La'an is not at all as badass as Drummer as of yet.

Edited by Ran
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38 minutes ago, Ran said:

They should have Wesley show up on SNW at some point due to timey-wimey stuff. Although I see Picard sort of half-assed did it (I say half-assed because Wesley doesn't actually meet Picard, which is kind of lame!)

I like La'an but she's a bit of a cliché right now. Also, for some reason the actress and her styling reminds me a hell of a lot of Cara Gee as Camina Drummer, but La'an is not at all as badass as Drummer as of yet.

I was thinking the same! Even their voices are similar.

To be fair, it's difficult to be as great and badass as Drummer!

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