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Star Trek: Strange New Gorns


SpaceChampion
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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

... although I must say the pointless death of Will and Deanna's son in Picard was really quite pointless. A very bad and on-the-head plot device. You know what the real people would have done? They would have defied the fucking Federation and created a silicon thingy anyway. Or they would have left Federation space to do it where it was still allowed.

That bothered me more than anything else. These people have defied starfleet over far less. What's wrong with building an air-gapped andriod head and harvesting whatever ridiculous sci-fi shit they needed? 

and then on another level, the whole "also the ban murdered Riker and Troy's kid" thing is so unnecessary, over the top and on the nose. We get it, androids should be allowed. Nobody watched TNG and didn't already get that. 

 

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32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't find it that nihilist or dark ... although I must say the pointless death of Will and Deanna's son in Picard was really quite pointless. A very bad and on-the-head plot device. You know what the real people would have done? They would have defied the fucking Federation and created a silicon thingy anyway. Or they would have left Federation space to do it where it was still allowed.

 

I mean it certainly isn't hopeful and uplifting, the way 90's Trek was, I can tell you that much. Literally the first episode of Picard has an admiral tell Picard to "shut the f#$k up". Every show aside from Lower Decks seems to want to center on someone or thing either destroying the universe of The Federation. That was never what Trek was about. Did event like that happen, sure, were they common things, no. They're basically trying to treat Trek like it's an action series, when it use to be a show about exploration.

Edited by sifth
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16 minutes ago, RumHam said:

That bothered me more than anything else. These people have defied starfleet over far less. What's wrong with building an air-gapped andriod head and harvesting whatever ridiculous sci-fi shit they needed? 

and then on another level, the whole "also the ban murdered Riker and Troy's kid" thing is so unnecessary, over the top and on the nose. We get it, androids should be allowed. Nobody watched TNG and didn't already get that.

I had forgotten about that, and when rewatching I first thought 'Well, sad that we never met that other Troi Riker kid, but it is kind of interesting background detail for the other kid and the family in general.' People do die, perhaps he suffered an accident, or died in service to the Federation, etc. ... but that completely breaks down when we hear it is just another plot device to show that the android ban is bad, as you pointed out.

You really get the feeling that the people writing this really lost it ... I mean the resolution is so bad, we don't even know what happened to Narek nor whether Soong killed evil Soji with that device.

Not to mention that the directing is so silly that apparently nobody at the android home does anything while Soji stands there and continues and continues and continues to summon the machine Old Ones even after the people knew that Evil Soji manipulated them and murdered one of their own. What are the other people doing during those scenes. They are right there and should no longer be held after Soong dealt with Evil Soji.

And why the hell did Evil Soji unleash Narek? All she needed was an attack on one of her siblings, not an evil Romulan on the loose who might use the Borg cube to atomize them before the machine Old Ones were there.

In a realistic scenario Evil Soji would have killed both her sister and Narek, blaming the murder on him.

Also, how could she be so stupid as to not realize that Soong or somebody else would figure out the truth by accessing her memories? And why would she truly kill her sister rather than merely incapacitate her ... you know, an evil Romulan attack not ending in a murder could have had the same effect.

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean it certainly isn't hopeful and uplifting, the way 90's Trek was, I can tell you that much. Literally the first episode of Picard has an admiral tell Picard to "shut the f#$k up". Every show aside from Lower Decks seems to want to center on someone or thing either destroying the universe of The Federation. That was never what Trek was about. Did event like that happen, sure, were they common things, no. They're basically trying to treat Trek like it's an action series, when it use to be a show about exploration.

I think the general take of the Federation not doing everything in their power to save the Romulans isn't that bad a backstory. It makes sense in light of their long enmity that there would be opposition to such a rescue operation. This could have even made more sense in context if people had talked about and referenced the aftermath of the Dominion War and the events depicted in Nemesis. The Federation isn't exactly at full power in that era.

The message of Picard also isn't that the Federation is destroyed, but rather that they made a mistake ... and Jean-Luc still stands for the core values of the Federation despite the fact what the Romulans tried to do to him with the whole Shinzon plan - they could have referenced that as well, showing how great a guy he is, how forgiving and hopeful (and it could have part of the reason why Laris and the other Romulans do like him as much as they do).

I do agree that Discovery's weirdo threat plots are ... weird. As I said, no need for another Klingon War, especially not with weirdo hairless Klingons, and certainly also no need for a Federation AI running amok and destroying all (!!!) sentient life in the galaxy. Also little need for other super weapon space miners (we had that with Romulan oil rig guy in the movie).

The Burn, on the other hand, should have been something certain parties could have done intentionally. That being a freak accident was not the explanation I wanted...

I'd also agree that while a story arc should be there in those modern shows, they should have single episodes like they had in the old days.

Picard season 2, though, isn't another threat to the Federation but rather Q messing with Picard, again, in ten episodes rather than one or two as it used to be.

I don't like the Confederation all that much (why not just have Q turn things our universe into the Mirror Universe and have Picard and Seven, say, restore the glory of the Terran Empire using Borg technology if you need evil humans?) nor the time travel plot ... but this isn't *that* bad. Slow going and not that great, but still fun occasionally - Seven and Raffi were good during that chase sequence.

But I do agree that the social commentary should be more subtle and less focused on current real world issues. Trek is great because it can show how things get better ... say, it would have been great having a show about the Romulan situation where Picard and his guys overcame resistance in the Federation to do the right thing in the end. Or to have people point out more how things can and will get better. The fourth movie was really great in this regard. Also, the way they dealt with racism in all those Sisko episodes where he was travelling back in time or where he was stuck in bad writer land.

One of the bigger letdowns of future Trek in Discovery is that the people are really not at all different in that era. Having a decline is not that bad in principle, but the tech should be much more advanced (they should no longer be that dependent on dilithium) and the challenges they faced in the centuries in-between should also have moved them ahead culturally and morally.

The Discovery only know about a century of Federation history - the guys in the future nearly a millennium. They should be much more familiar with Federation values than Burnham and her people.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Picard season 2, though, isn't another threat to the Federation but rather Q messing with Picard, again, in ten episodes rather than one or two as it used to be.

 

Very good points all around, but this is the one that caught my mind the most. So many questions about Q this season don't make sense to me. Picard mentions that "Q isn't well", in the second episode, so is the character having a mental breakdown? Also in a more recent episode his powers aren't working, so is he becoming human? Is the whole season just one big test for Picard again or Q having a mental breakdown, that's literally one question that interests me with Picard right now.

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5 minutes ago, sifth said:

Very good points all around, but this is the one that caught my mind the most. So many questions about Q this season don't make sense to me. Picard mentions that "Q isn't well", in the second episode, so is the character having a mental breakdown? Also in a more recent episode his powers aren't working, so is he becoming human? Is the whole season just one big test for Picard again or Q having a mental breakdown, that's literally one question that interests me with Picard right now.

That is indeed one of the big questions.

Considering his background we can, perhaps, assume that the Q Continuum's other members might also make an appearance later on (although since none have been mentioned so far that may not be the case). It is also possible that what Q did to the timeline/reality somehow affected him for unknown reasons.

Ideally, the writers have some idea there as to why Q is as interested in Picard - and the Picard line, apparently - throughout all of TNG. That was a rather unhealthy obsession for such a powerful being, after all.

In that context I have to say that one of the uglier things in the seasons was the guys (Raffi, I think) blame Picard for Q's actions. He is just a guy, and Q is a god. That's like blaming Job for his troubles. He isn't responsible, and these characters must know that.

If the writing is good, then they will give us an explanation that links that interest to something crucial about Q himself and Picard, and resolves this in a satisfying manner.

As I said - I have a feeling that the personal journey for Picard there are his personal attachment issues, possibly resulting in him having a family (again) in the end. I'd expect that Renee Picard is going to suffer from similar or identical issues as Picard himself, something he will relate to and use to overcome whatever issues plague due to the issues with his mother just as he helps Renee to be who she is supposed to be. That seems to be the plot there.

I don't think Q messes with things just because he is a dickhead. He likely destroyed reality to help Picard to help himself (and in the process also him) somehow.

An unpleasant way to end things would be with Q dying somehow (something I'd not like) ... a more pleasant way could be that Q had to do stuff like that because if there are no Picards in the future then the world and the Q Continuum are fucked for some reason. That the Picards are important as a line is already established with that Watcher watching over Renee, and one imagines that's (hopefully) not just because of Jean-Luc.

And I say it again - they should revisit that freak accident which killed Robert and René. In light of the importance of the family line they are creating in this series, it cannot really work that this was just a freak accident. And it was such a pointless thing to do in Generations, especially since it didn't lead to Picard having a family of his own.

Alternatively, they could also just reveal that Wesley is Picard's son and be through with it. In any case, they definitely should bring back Beverly and Wesley for the final season, considering the importance these two had for Picard. It would also be interesting to see Geordi and Worf again, but Beverly and Wesley seem to be more important.

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A few thoughts on diversity and representation in Star Trek.

I'm under the impression that certain aspects of that were actually dealt with better in the older shows than the newer ones.

Sure, TOS and TNG wasn't good at depicting women (I just watched 'The Cage' again, and Number One doesn't make up for the attitude towards women in that episode) but they actually tried to depict the whole Starfleet thing being the project of a united Earth and thus it having people from all lands and regions of Earth. Uhura and La Forge aren't African American, they are actually from Africa, Chekov is actually Russian (although Sulu is apparently an Asian American), of course, Picard is actually a Frenchman, not just an American with a French name. Having a non-American as a Starfleet captain seems to be something Roddenberry pushed through - Sisko, Janeway, and Archer all had to be Americans.

Even though TNG had folks with English names, Beverly Crusher is neither English nor American but from the Moon, living part of her life in another colony and Tasha Yar is from a colony world as well. Will Riker seems to be the only 'real American' in TNG.

Compared to that, things take a turn for the bad in Voyager (DS9 is still pretty good since it has a lot of aliens) where you have Americans with Janeway, Paris, and Kim ... and the Doctor is also based on some English guy.

And in Enterprise you basically have the British Empire colonizing space, with two Yankees running the show. They didn't even have the grace to give a non-English name to the black guy who grew up on the freighters ... there was no need that he have an English/American family background. This was especially vexing since this was the first big mission of United Earth, so the crew should have reflected at least as much internationalism as TOS, if not more.

Even in Discovery, Burnham had to have an American name rather than having parents from some other place on Earth or from some of the colony worlds. Then we also have Tilly, Stamets, and Culber with a I guess some of the tertiary Discovery characters might have different backgrounds, but it isn't that good in that regard.

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On 4/5/2022 at 3:46 PM, RumHam said:

The timeline is a little fuzzy, but the future scenes in "All Good Things..." is set "close to 25 years" after the last time Picard was called Captain by Geordi, according to the dialogue in the episode.  Nemesis was set in 2379.  Not sure when Picard became an Admiral but let's assume shortly after that.

Picard season 2 in about 2401, so that is a 22 year difference.  I think it's possible season 3 could intersect with All Good Things, giving the reason for the whole TNG cast to be there, which could be somewhere between 2402-2404, making for the "nearly 25 years" reference work.

I'm not saying that's a good idea.  They've already doing a Q season, they don't need another.  More like something I'm afraid the Picard producers will try to do.

Edited by SpaceChampion
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8 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

So on Picard, it's got to be all a misdirect by Q, right?  It's not about Renee Picard, but radicalizing Soong to lead to another Eugenics War?

Who the fuck knows, honestly.

I'm getting serious season 1 vibes right now that the writers have, once again, bit off more than they needed to and are trying to tackle way too many things and are not going to do any of them justice in the end.

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When Q got Soong of all people to kill Renee Picard, I had assumed an elaborate scheme where the mad scientist talents were required to maybe subtly kill her off or make her lose her mind and thus be off the mission.

Spoiler

Instead it's just because he's rich so he can buy his way into the gala and then run her over with his car. :rolleyes:

This show struggles to find any substance. I suppose the only reason why they quickly established a relationship between Rafi and Elnor at the start of the season was to give Rafi something for the rest of the season, because otherwise she would have been a background character. Rios is mainly the comedic relief/action hero when he needs to be. They may do something more with him, considering his relationship with the clinic doctor, but I won't hold my breath. Seven of Nine experiencing what it is to be fully human is still at the periphery of the plot for now. I suppose Jurati has something going for her, but there are a lot of cringy moments there. The way the music band just went with her singing. Lol, can one say "massive cliche"?

Spoiler

I assume that clone girl is maybe based on Soong's real daughter, or... to just to make it fucked up, his mother. That would align in some way with Picard's mother issues. Because why not.

FYI, Halo's episodes have a longer runtime than Picard's. A show based on a FPS game. This show is not living up to its potential.

Edited by Corvinus85
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Something is pretty weird there.

The band thing can only be explained if the Borg Queen was assimilating them along with Agnes...

I think Soong's attack on Renée was more him having a mad breakdown than him having a plan. The plan was to get to the gala and get Picard thrown out - when that failed, he clearly panicked ... although it is also unclear how the hell he could locate Renée.

As for Soong's template for Kore ... I guess it must have been an important woman for him, since the design survived until Data's time. I thought dead daughter, although mother could work as well. Historically Kore - or other versions of her - must have been very important for the Soongs, or else Data would have painted different pictures.

11 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

So on Picard, it's got to be all a misdirect by Q, right?  It's not about Renee Picard, but radicalizing Soong to lead to another Eugenics War?

That is certainly a possibility, although I'm not sure that guy could cause another Eugenics War ... assuming there was even a Eugenics War in that timeline - which doesn't seem (or doesn't have to) be the case.

 

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