Ned's Dream for Spring

[MattJ]

New to this kind of thing so maybe this topic has been done before. If so please send me that direction.

Otherwise, I thought it would be interesting to explore Ned Stark's 'Dream for Spring'. Jon mentions that Ned had planned to repopulate the lands of The Gift held by the Night's Watch. It's supposedly prime farmland but has been depopulated by wildling raids. Ned's idea was that new lords would hold fiefs in The Gift but would pay their taxes to the Watch and help patrol for wildlings. 

So I'm going to rewind the series back to 298 and just pretend the whole story doesn't happen. Jon Arryn is alive or at least appoints a successor Robert trusts so there's no need for Ned to leave. There's no schemes, Dany is a world away, the Night's King and his army still exist but I'll hold his and Mance's advances back by several years in order to facilitate a normal winter hitting and lasting a couple years. So the scenario would take place in like 304 AC.

We're assuming no one important dies in these intervening years that can't be replaced. For instance if Galbart Glover hypothetically dies over the winter it doesn't matter because Robett inherits. This is an ideal scenario pretty much solely in Ned's head. 

[MattJ]

So I went through the website's listings of Stark bannermen and created a list of potential children of lords who won't inherit that could be risen up to new status. I did approximations of ages they would be in 304. Some of them are totally age ambiguous.

1. Beth Cassel: 15 
2. Larence Snow(Halys Hornwood's bastard) 17
3. Artos Flint: Fighting age in ADoD
4. Rickard Liddle: Age unknown. Presumably not that old
5. Wendel Manderly: 46 He's old but not too old to rule and father children
6. Wynafryd Manderly: 23
7. Wylla Manderly: 20
8. Lyra Mormont: 17-27
9. Morelle Mormont: 16-26
10. Lyanna Mormont: 15
11. Jeyne Poole: 18
12. Jojen Reed: 18 (It's mentioned in the books that Jojen expects Meera to inherit Greywater Watch
13. Jon Snow: 23 Ned Stark's bastard
14. Edara Tallhart: 15
15. Brandon Tallhart: 20
16. Beren Tallhart: 16

Wild cards are Torren and Eddard Karstark, I can't remember how old they are. I assume in their 20's? I have no idea if they're wed or not. There are also several daughters and six grandsons of Arnolf Karstark that I didn't account for. Presumably the grandsons would be young enough. Greatjon Umber also has 'sons and daughters' besides Smalljon. Again, no info on age.

But this is my best approximation of a list of noble northerners who could conceivably marry and have children as new Stark bannermen. Other potential houses that could be looked to for marriage age children include House Royce, Frey, Blackwood.

[The Young Maester]

The north isnt restricted to just these lordlings you mentioned. Their probably are dozens and hundreds of nobility (high and low) that we are unaware of. These characters are just characters that happened to have appeared in some chapters or were mentioned by one of their kins.

And I don’t think Ned will be granting lands to 2nd sons of his most powerful bannermen. Really makes no sense empowering a house more than it is. Neither will he grant it to highborn ladies.

More likely he will give the best piece of land to his sons (bran and rickon). Whilst the rest will be given to men that arent of particular high birth (pooles and cassels as an example).

[C.T. Phipps]

Hypothetically, I imagine that Ned would probably run into no end of problems because this is Westeros and no one ever has an easy time of it.

I picture the following potential storylines, err, events:

* Ned runs into a lot more issue with the Night's Watch than he expects as Ser Aleister and others suspect this is part of a plot to increase the Stark's hold on the Gift.

* No sooner does Ned announce his plan than every lord demands the lion's share of the territory for their house.

* Ned finds that these noble houses pretty much intend to annex the Gift territory for themselves or their relatives and has difficulty finding Lords who will actually do the job right.

* Roose forwards Ramsay as a Bolton Lord. The Karstarks natter on about their ancient blood ties to the Starks. The Umbers notably just claim they deserve it because why not?

* Getting settlers up against the Wall isn't easy either because the North has many taboos against the place (for obvious reasons).

* Wildling raiders WILL be a major pain in the ass for any settlements as they regularly get past the Wall thanks to its underpopulated nature. Providing more victims won't help.

POSSIBLE CHARACTER BEATS:

* Ned Stark personally thinks Jon will be safe on the Wall but making him head of his own (lesser) House and a landed knight in the Gift is something that his brother advises him on. Catelyn Stark is furious over this because it legitimizes Jon further. Jon feels somewhat abandoned about it as he wanted to join the Night's Watch and feels that he's now supervising a construction project. His house heraldy is a white wolf.

* The other lords object to Jon as the Lord of the Gift houses and coordinator with the Night's Watch, which is why Ned chose him.

* Mace actually sees this construction as a good thing but probably not for the reason people think. He plans to let them settle the area for awhile and then head down there for supplies and food.

[WolfgangII]

On 4/7/2022 at 8:36 PM, The Young Maester said:

More likely he will give the best piece of land to his sons (bran and rickon). Whilst the rest will be given to men that arent of particular high birth (pooles and cassels as an example).

Most likely scenario. I'm trying to remember where I read that Ned planned to have Bran and Rickon became bannermen for his brother Robb. So, this piece of land is perfect for it: It allows the two young Stark to have a land and become lords on their own, while it doesn't substract anything from Robb's heritage.

[Aebram]

Something along these lines could happen, even though Ned is dead.  He may have told one of the surviving Starks about his intention; or someone else may propose the same idea. 

There are several interlocking problems here.  The Night's Watch was founded after the Long Night; but as the years and centuries rolled by without further attacks by the Others, the Watch seemed less important, and kings and lords were less likely to send them men and supplies.  As the Watch weakened, it was easier for wildlings to raid, which resulted in more people leaving the Gifts for safer lands.  That further weakened the Watch; it's a vicious cycle.

Now that the Others have returned, the people of Westeros will have a new understanding of why the Watch is important.  So the vicious cycle can be reversed:  the Watch will receive more recruits and supplies, which will allow it to better defend the Gifts against wildlings.  That will allow more people to live there safely, which will provide even more men and supplies for the Watch ... at least for a few centuries.

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