Dany and Charles of Valois

[Fishb4hjoker]

Just re-reading The Accursed kings series and I just realised that Dany is clearly a female version of our beloved Charles Valois, The former king of Aragon and Emperor of Constantinople, the Count of Romagna, The Peer of France, The perpetuate candidate to The Holy Roman Empire, The tyrant of Florence, The conqueror of Aquitane, The assembler of Crusades.

[BlackLightning]

On 4/8/2022 at 6:21 AM, Fishb4hjoker said:

Just re-reading The Accursed kings series and I just realised that Dany is clearly a female version of our beloved Charles Valois, The former king of Aragon and Emperor of Constantinople, the Count of Romagna, The Peer of France, The perpetuate candidate to The Holy Roman Empire, The tyrant of Florence, The conqueror of Aquitane, The assembler of Crusades.

Can you explain this more?

Why do you feel this way about Dany and Charles Valois?

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Can you explain this more?

Why do you feel this way about Dany and Charles Valois?

Yes, I can't see any resemblance between the two.

[The Jingo]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Yes, I can't see any resemblance between the two.

I'd say a history of dreaming too largely for their meager talents, only to have it all come crashing down around them when they overreach and inevitably screw something else up.

[Moiraine Sedai]

4 hours ago, The Jingo said:

I'd say a history of dreaming too largely for their meager talents, only to have it all come crashing down around them when they overreach and inevitably screw something else up.

 

It is Jon Snow who lacked the talent to lead and failed miserably at his job. The men of the watch fired him for good reason. Jon screwed up an institution that has stood for thousands of years. 

Dany is a true Kaleesi and the heir to Westeros. She led her khalasar through the red waste and got them through. She liberated thousands of slaves. She is the most talented leader in the series.  

[The Jingo]

55 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

It is Jon Snow who lacked the talent to lead and failed miserably at his job. The men of the watch fired him for good reason. Jon screwed up an institution that has stood for thousands of years.

Who said anything about Jon Snow?

Quote

Dany is a true Kaleesi and the heir to Westeros. She led her khalasar through the red waste and got them through. She liberated thousands of slaves. She is the most talented leader in the series.  

Daenerys Targaryen is unironically one of the worst leaders in the series. Her only real redeeming quality is that she has the charisma to convince people to follow her, though a large part of that is simply the dragons she hatched via power of the plotshield.

When expected to govern anything larger than a hamlet she immediately ends up sinking the economy and destroying people's lives to such a degree that they desperately wish to sell themselves back into slavery just to have food to eat.

She doesn't understand anything about politics or statecraft. She walks into Slaver's Bay and blows up the social structure, and then acts all confused that things have descended into chaos.

[Lord Varys]

25 minutes ago, The Jingo said:

Daenerys Targaryen is unironically one of the worst leaders in the series. Her only real redeeming quality is that she has the charisma to convince people to follow her, though a large part of that is simply the dragons she hatched via power of the plotshield.

That isn't true. Dany basically decided on her own (after Jorah convinced her to go to Slaver's Bay) to sack Astapor and was successful at that. And that was a very risky and still very successful stratagem, something no other Targaryen general seems to have used before.

It is not just her charisma but also her apparent ability as a leader which convinces various sellsword captains to join her. Her dragons are still pretty much nothing in early ASoS.

25 minutes ago, The Jingo said:

When expected to govern anything larger than a hamlet she immediately ends up sinking the economy and destroying people's lives to such a degree that they desperately wish to sell themselves back into slavery just to have food to eat.

That is a clear misconception on your part. Essentially all slaves like to be free - the one guy who wants to be a slave is a former well-to-do guy who knows Xaro Xhoan Daxos well enough to know that a buddy of his becoming his slave would live a great life. But that's basically an aristocrat taking in another impoverished aristocrat under the guise of slavery, not ex-slaves fondly remembering the days of slavery.

Of course, the house slave gang - those pampered pets and intimates of the various masters who lived with them in their great houses and didn't have to work that hard, etc. might also have fond memories of that lifestyles - but that's clearly a very small percentage of all the slaves in Slaver's Bay who were freed.

So far we do have several freedmen companies being founded whereas there is no indication that other ex-slaves are falling over themselves to volunteer for the armies of the Yunkish allies.

The economy of Slaver's Bay based on slavery has to go. There is no room for compromise there - the non-slavery economy was destroyed by the various masters, for instance when the Great Masters of Meereen burned the olive groves outside the city.

It is also pretty clear that labor continued as before - it was just no longer done by slaves and the profits went to the free workers and their enterprises rather than the parasitic and lazy slave owners.

25 minutes ago, The Jingo said:

She doesn't understand anything about politics or statecraft. She walks into Slaver's Bay and blows up the social structure, and then acts all confused that things have descended into chaos.

She isn't confused about that. She is sad and unhappy that folks do not seem to love despite the fact that she literally does everything in her power short of reintroducing slavery to Meereen to placate the masters ... but she isn't confused about the fact that the end of slavery marked the end of the international slave trade.

The main reason why there is chaos is that foreign enemies attack Meereen, invade her lands, and form an international coalition against her (the naval blockade seems to be the biggest hindrance to establish new trade contacts or continue whatevern non-slavery trade existed earlier). That's just a war of aggression since the independent nation of Meereen and its former ruling class are fine with the new anti-slavery status quo. And nobody has the right to demand that the Meereenese ruler reintroduce slavery ... just as nobody can demand that the Westerosi or the Braavosi do this.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, The Jingo said:

Who said anything about Jon Snow?

Daenerys Targaryen is unironically one of the worst leaders in the series. Her only real redeeming quality is that she has the charisma to convince people to follow her, though a large part of that is simply the dragons she hatched via power of the plotshield.

When expected to govern anything larger than a hamlet she immediately ends up sinking the economy and destroying people's lives to such a degree that they desperately wish to sell themselves back into slavery just to have food to eat.

She doesn't understand anything about politics or statecraft. She walks into Slaver's Bay and blows up the social structure, and then acts all confused that things have descended into chaos.

While the standard of governance is not high in general, she’s one of the better leaders in this series.

She didn’t overthrow societies that were peaceful and harmonious.  She overthrew societies that were like 18th century Haiti, hell on earth for most of their inhabitants.  Of course the privileged minority hate this, but the freedmen are very supportive of her.

No freedman in the books wants to return to slavery.  A number of “gently born” Meereenese who have lost their own slaves and property wish to sell themselves to a Qartheen trader, in the belief they will be privileged House slaves.

 

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

That is a clear misconception on your part. Essentially all slaves like to be free - the one guy who wants to be a slave is a former well-to-do guy who knows Xaro Xhoan Daxos well enough to know that a buddy of his becoming his slave would live a great life. But that's basically an aristocrat taking in another impoverished aristocrat under the guise of slavery, not ex-slaves fondly remembering the days of slavery.

Of course, the house slave gang - those pampered pets and intimates of the various masters who lived with them in their great houses and didn't have to work that hard, etc. might also have fond memories of that lifestyles - but that's clearly a very small percentage of all the slaves in Slaver's Bay who were freed.

So far we do have several freedmen companies being founded whereas there is no indication that other ex-slaves are falling over themselves to volunteer for the armies of the Yunkish allies.

The economy of Slaver's Bay based on slavery has to go. There is no room for compromise there - the non-slavery economy was destroyed by the various masters, for instance when the Great Masters of Meereen burned the olive groves outside the city.

It is also pretty clear that labor continued as before - it was just no longer done by slaves and the profits went to the free workers and their enterprises rather than the parasitic and lazy slave owners.

 

That seems the most obvious point about slavery.  The same work still needs doing.  It’s just that the masters now have to pay for it.  They resent that of course, and claim it causes all sorts of economic problems, but that argument is wholly self-serving.

The end of slave-trading does reduce overall income, but the profits from slave trading went to a very narrow circle of people.  By definition, the slave majority derives no benefit from slave trading.

[frenin]

16 hours ago, The Jingo said:

I'd say a history of dreaming too largely for their meager talents, only to have it all come crashing down around them when they overreach and inevitably screw something else up.

Dany is a noted conqueror tho and she has achieved things others believed impossible. 

There are a lot of characters I can think about with that description but Dany isn't one of them.

[Lord Varys]

How anathema the social order and way of life in Slaver's Bay is to 'decent people' can also be drawn from TWoIaF and the fact that Yandel mostly glosses over that region, mentioning it only in context to the Doom of Valyria.

While slavery is also rampant in most of the Free Cities, Slaver's Bay monstrosity is marked by the cruel way in which they train new slaves, how they treat them in general, and how callously they discard people.

For instance, if you look at the ridiculous Yunkish slave soldier you realize that these people must have so many slaves that they can afford to only use the tallest, etc.

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

How anathema the social order and way of life in Slaver's Bay is to 'decent people' can also be drawn from TWoIaF and the fact that Yandel mostly glosses over that region, mentioning it only in context to the Doom of Valyria.

While slavery is also rampant in most of the Free Cities, Slaver's Bay monstrosity is marked by the cruel way in which they train new slaves, how they treat them in general, and how callously they discard people.

For instance, if you look at the ridiculous Yunkish slave soldier you realize that these people must have so many slaves that they can afford to only use the tallest, etc.

Even by the standards of most slavers, the Ghiscari masters are vile.  This is chattel slavery at its most cruel, wasteful, and sadistic.

[Rondo]

21 hours ago, The Jingo said:

I'd say a history of dreaming too largely for their meager talents, only to have it all come crashing down around them when they overreach and inevitably screw something else up.

I will disagree with your belief here.  Daenerys Targaryen is one of the more able of the current rulers in the story.  It is not just about conquering.  She is reforming Slaver's Bay into a better society with a better economy that is not based on slavery.  Time and again, Daenerys finds a way to win against poor odds.  She resists the temptations of quick half-answers and finds a way around obstacles.  She makes compromises when necessary too.  

Slaver's Bay has been screwed up for over a thousand years.  What she has done is brought the peninsula closer to a land of freedom.  

16 hours ago, The Jingo said:

Who said anything about Jon Snow?

The devoted fans are divided between who they love among the characters.  Some of you like Jon.  Some of us like Daenerys.  Lob criticism on one and you are likely to get an equal criticism of the other.  

16 hours ago, The Jingo said:

Daenerys Targaryen is unironically one of the worst leaders in the series. Her only real redeeming quality is that she has the charisma to convince people to follow her, though a large part of that is simply the dragons she hatched via power of the plotshield.

When expected to govern anything larger than a hamlet she immediately ends up sinking the economy and destroying people's lives to such a degree that they desperately wish to sell themselves back into slavery just to have food to eat.

She doesn't understand anything about politics or statecraft. She walks into Slaver's Bay and blows up the social structure, and then acts all confused that things have descended into chaos.

Daenerys absolutely understands that Slaver's Bay needs to be blown up.  The Bay is built on an evil structure of slavery.  The Bay has been slaving for thousands of years.  Dismantling slavery takes time and it will not happen without chaos and pain.  But it must be done nevertheless.  

The fact that the free men can now decide for themselves if they want to return to slavery or remain free is indeed Freedom.  It is a choice which they have never had before.  Freedom never guarantees prosperity.  Nor can it guarantee safety.  All it can guarantee is the right to make choices.  Freedom is just the start.  It is the base from which equality and human rights can be built upon.  

[James Arryn]

On 4/15/2022 at 8:25 PM, Lord Varys said:

That's just a war of aggression since the independent nation of Meereen’s and its former ruling class are fine with the new anti-slavery status quo. And nobody has the right to demand that the Meereenese ruler reintroduce slavery ... just as nobody can demand that the Westerosi or the Braavosi do this.

I see it more in line with how all the neighbouring powers immediately freaked out and kinda declared existential war against Revolutionary/Napoleonic France and Bolshevik/Soviet Russia, ie ‘if it succeeds there we’re soon going to be facing the same kind of challenge to our own power/control over our lower classes.’
 

ie, it will be called a war of aggression in Meereen but a defense of the ‘right’ way of governance/status quo everywhere else (amongst their enemies) and history’s version will depend on how successfully the upstart ideology withstands constant invasion and funded coups/assassination attempts/propaganda. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

I see it more in line with how all the neighbouring powers immediately freaked out and kinda declared existential war against Revolutionary/Napoleonic France and Bolshevik/Soviet Russia, ie ‘if it succeeds there we’re soon going to be facing the same kind of challenge to our own power/control over our lower classes.’

That is actually not how it is framed. Volantis and Qarth and the other nations declaring war on Meereen do so because of their involvement in the international slave trade. They worry about their profits, they do not fear that some mad queen at the far end of the world is threatening their rule.

After all, most of those nations are not exactly immediate neighbors of Meereen.

And the Yunkai'i want payback and revenge.

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

ie, it will be called a war of aggression in Meereen but a defense of the ‘right’ way of governance/status quo everywhere else (amongst their enemies) and history’s version will depend on how successfully the upstart ideology withstands constant invasion and funded coups/assassination attempts/propaganda. 

Not sure why we should matter how history is going to view this conflict since we will never know that. However, the present situation is pretty clear. Queen Daenerys and the Great Masters were in agreement that slavery in Meereen was abolished. They agreed to it, Hizdahr later also agrees to it, etc.

[James Arryn]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

That is actually not how it is framed. Volantis and Qarth and the other nations declaring war on Meereen do so because of their involvement in the international slave trade. They worry about their profits, they do not fear that some mad queen at the far end of the world is threatening their rule.

After all, most of those nations are not exactly immediate neighbors of Meereen.

And the Yunkai'i want payback and revenge.

Not sure why we should matter how history is going to view this conflict since we will never know that. However, the present situation is pretty clear. Queen Daenerys and the Great Masters were in agreement that slavery in Meereen was abolished. They agreed to it, Hizdahr later also agrees to it, etc.

No, to be clear, the established powers do not fear that Napoleon/Russia/Dany will directly attack them, they feel that if they succeed in establishing democracy/communism/abolition that their own citizens will be inspired to rise up against them. It’s the possibility of Dany succeeding in Meereen that threatens them, and why they will go to great lengths to prevent that. 

[SeanF]

18 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

No, to be clear, the established powers do not fear that Napoleon/Russia/Dany will directly attack them, they feel that if they succeed in establishing democracy/communism/abolition that their own citizens will be inspired to rise up against them. It’s the possibility of Dany succeeding in Meereen that threatens them, and why they will go to great lengths to prevent that. 

Yes, I agree.  We can see that the slaves of Volantis have been emboldened, and the Old Blood are absolutely terrified by the prospect of an uprising.  The customs officer that Tyrion discusses the situation with is quite clear about that. If they can crush free Meereen, and drag Daenerys and her chief supporters back to a brutal execution in Volantis, the slaves will think there are worse things than slavery after all.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Yes, I agree.  We can see that the slaves of Volantis have been emboldened, and the Old Blood are absolutely terrified by the prospect of an uprising.  The customs officer that Tyrion discusses the situation with is quite clear about that. If they can crush free Meereen, and drag Daenerys and her chief supporters back to a brutal execution in Volantis, the slaves will think there are worse things than slavery after all.

There is some of that in Volantis, but not that much. And such arguments don't seem to be made by the Qartheen.

The Triarchs don't really seem to grasp the severity of the situation - they rely on a standing army of slaves who are mostly followers of R'hllor whose High Priest has declared Daenerys the savior of the world. And they are still using that very army to try to conquer Meereen and cast Daenerys down? That is just stupidity.

If Dany came west to Volantis - as folks originally expected she would - then this could cause a slave uprising as the Widow of the Waterfront expects and works for (presumably) ... but merely Dany's existence as Queen of Meereen clearly does not. It is her presence and her being viewed as a prophesied savior.

It also didn't stop the Astapori and the Yunkai'i from reintroducing slavery (although the Astapori at least enslaved the former masters with the former slaves being the masters in charge ... which is at least justified revenge) nor is there any indication other slaver societies are getting nervous that their social order might be collapsing (no indication that the Norvoshi or Qohorik or Three Sisters are concerned by that).

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is some of that in Volantis, but not that much. And such arguments don't seem to be made by the Qartheen.

The Triarchs don't really seem to grasp the severity of the situation - they rely on a standing army of slaves who are mostly followers of R'hllor whose High Priest has declared Daenerys the savior of the world. And they are still using that very army to try to conquer Meereen and cast Daenerys down? That is just stupidity.

If Dany came west to Volantis - as folks originally expected she would - then this could cause a slave uprising as the Widow of the Waterfront expects and works for (presumably) ... but merely Dany's existence as Queen of Meereen clearly does not. It is her presence and her being viewed as a prophesied savior.

It also didn't stop the Astapori and the Yunkai'i from reintroducing slavery (although the Astapori at least enslaved the former masters with the former slaves being the masters in charge ... which is at least justified revenge) nor is there any indication other slaver societies are getting nervous that their social order might be collapsing (no indication that the Norvoshi or Qohorik or Three Sisters are concerned by that).

Slave soldiers are such a stupid idea that you wonder why anyone would use them.  How idiotic is it to put weapons into the hands of those you brutalise?  And, yet, they have been quite a common feature in the Islamic world.  Unsurprisingly, Mamelukes, Janissaries, and Ghilmans developed a loyalty to their comrades that transcended any loyalty to their masters, and seized power in their own right.

[BlackLightning]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is some of that in Volantis, but not that much. And such arguments don't seem to be made by the Qartheen.

The Triarchs don't really seem to grasp the severity of the situation - they rely on a standing army of slaves who are mostly followers of R'hllor whose High Priest has declared Daenerys the savior of the world. And they are still using that very army to try to conquer Meereen and cast Daenerys down? That is just stupidity.

If Dany came west to Volantis - as folks originally expected she would - then this could cause a slave uprising as the Widow of the Waterfront expects and works for (presumably) ... but merely Dany's existence as Queen of Meereen clearly does not. It is her presence and her being viewed as a prophesied savior.

It also didn't stop the Astapori and the Yunkai'i from reintroducing slavery (although the Astapori at least enslaved the former masters with the former slaves being the masters in charge ... which is at least justified revenge) nor is there any indication other slaver societies are getting nervous that their social order might be collapsing (no indication that the Norvoshi or Qohorik or Three Sisters are concerned by that).

I wonder what things are like in Lys, Myr, Tyrosh and Norvos.

Does Yi-Ti have a slave culture?

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

And, yet, they have been quite a common feature in the Islamic world.  Unsurprisingly, Mamelukes, Janissaries, and Ghilmans developed a loyalty to their comrades that transcended any loyalty to their masters, and seized power in their own right.

Exactly.

A big part of the reason why the Ottoman Empire collapsed.