Viserys's Gift

[frenin]

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No, they are not following Viserys. Few of them will ever even see him. They follow Drogo's general, and by extension, Drogo. As far as they are concerned, Viserys is just showing them where to plunder. And they cannot refuse to go, or else Drogo will slaughter them all and chop their bodies into little pieces and scatter them on the ground so they cannot ride the nightlands. That's all Illyrio needs, to get the Dothraki to Westeros. After that, Viserys is expendable.

Drogo's general follows Viserys, ergo the rest of the army follows Viserys. And how come that few of them will ever see him? It's an army of 10k not a million and it only takes one of them for the word to spread. It's inmaterial imo because there's no dothraki, general or otherwise that's going to follow Viserys's orders anyway, it's a non starter not that Drogo would put his men over that position anyway, neither he nor his khalassar thought much of the beggar King. Perhaps that's why Jorah tagged along.

 

 

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Drogo would not even know Illyrio had Dany if he didn't offer her up. He's been paying off the Dothraki with far less than a Targaryen bride for years, so why would he even let him know he had her when he could just pay him off as usual? And if he is giving them both away just to prevent Pentos from being plundered, then why does he think he's getting an army out of the deal?

A Targaryen bride serves to sweeten the deal even more, the Targlings are expendable and they serve to whatever scheme, high or low Illryrio wanted them to serve.

Even if Illyrio did think he was buying off an army doesn't men that Drogo thought or was willing to sell off his army.. Which is why i think Varys and Illyrio orchestrated Dany's assasination attempt, in order to try  and get Drogo to move his ass.

 

 

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, Illyrio didn't get to where he is in life by being trusting or foolish with has valuables.

Even the greatests minds miscalculate. Fact is, Illyrio had little way to get Drogo to sail. The Dothraki do not sail. people ought to listen to Ned more.

 

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

There is no reason to think Drogo would have gone back on his word had Viserys not threatened his unborn son.

There's no reason to believe Drogo would have honored his word. In fact Drogo doesn't hint that he was considering the idea till his son and wife were endangered, he says he doesn't wanna and that's it. His son is going to plunder Essos.

Dany's and Jorah's conversation also do not mention any change of mood from Drogo since Viserys's death.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, frenin said:

Drogo's general follows Viserys, ergo the rest of the army follows Viserys. And how come that few of them will ever see him? It's an army of 10k not a million and it only takes one of them for the word to spread. It's inmaterial imo because there's no dothraki, general or otherwise that's going to follow Viserys's orders anyway, it's a non starter not that Drogo would put his men over that position anyway, neither he nor his khalassar thought much of the beggar King. Perhaps that's why Jorah tagged along.

 

 

A Targaryen bride serves to sweeten the deal even more, the Targlings are expendable and they serve to whatever scheme, high or low Illryrio wanted them to serve.

Even if Illyrio did think he was buying off an army doesn't men that Drogo thought or was willing to sell off his army.. Which is why i think Varys and Illyrio orchestrated Dany's assasination attempt, in order to try  and get Drogo to move his ass.

 

 

Even the greatests minds miscalculate. Fact is, Illyrio had little way to get Drogo to sail. The Dothraki do not sail. people ought to listen to Ned more.

 

There's no reason to believe Drogo would have honored his word. In fact Drogo doesn't hint that he was considering the idea till his son and wife were endangered, he says he doesn't wanna and that's it. His son is going to plunder Essos.

Dany's and Jorah's conversation also do not mention any change of mood from Drogo since Viserys's death.

Sorry, no, you have it completely wrong. The general is only following Viserys to the plunder. He is not giving him command. And nobody would know that Vis was such a weak leader until they got to Westeros anyway, which is all Illyrio wants. The vast majority of grunts would only see him from a distance, and none of them speak his language, so as long as they win their battles, Vis is a strong leader as far as they are concerned. But as I said, once they ditch him, all the better for Illyrio, who has no intention of letting him take the throne.

Illyrio is not stupid. Ned is. Illyrio has been dealing with Dothraki all his life. He knows what their code is. Drogo would have honored his word. We barely hear him speak about anything until the wine merchant, so just because we don't have a PoV confirming this means nothing. His decision after Viserys is dead is that he will not cross the poison water and neither will Rhaego. The iron chair is moot at that point, but there is no reason to think he would have gone back on his word to send others of his khal to Westeros. So what you characterize as a "miscalculation" by Illyrio would in fact be a bone-headed rookie mistake that is completely out of character for the man who fought and schemed his way up from the streets to become one of the wealthiest and preeminent figures in the entire world.

 

[frenin]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, no, you have it completely wrong. The general is only following Viserys to the plunder. He is not giving him command. And nobody would know that Vis was such a weak leader until they got to Westeros anyway, which is all Illyrio wants. The vast majority of grunts would only see him from a distance, and none of them speak his language, so as long as they win their battles, Vis is a strong leader as far as they are concerned. But as I said, once they ditch him, all the better for Illyrio, who has no intention of letting him take the throne.

But he is following Viserys, he's taking orders and advices from Viserys, if it's only to the plunder. Which again, not happening.

Btw, the blood riders already knew Viserys was a little shit and were already mocking him.

 

Quote

Dany followed on her silver, escorted by Ser Jorah Mormont and her brother Viserys, mounted once more. After the day in the grass when she had left him to walk back to the khalasar, the Dothraki had laughingly called him Khal Rhae Mhar, the Sorefoot King. Khal Drogo had offered him a place in a cart the next day, and Viserys had accepted. In his stubborn ignorance, he had not even known he was being mocked; the carts were for eunuchs, cripples, women giving birth, the very young and the very old. That won him yet another name: Khal Rhaggat, the Cart King. Her brother had thought it was the khal's way of apologizing for the wrong Dany had done him. She had begged Ser Jorah not to tell him the truth, lest he be shamed. The knight had replied that the king could well do with a bit of shame … yet he had done as she bid. It had taken much pleading, and all the pillow tricks Doreah had taught her, before Dany had been able to make Drogo relent and allow Viserys to rejoin them at the head of the column.

 

Yeah... Not happening lol.

 

 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Illyrio has been dealing with Dothraki all his life.

Which leads to arrogance.

 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Drogo would have honored his word.

Drogo told Dany he had no intention to do so, post hoc reasoning doesn't change that.

 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 His decision after Viserys is dead is that he will not cross the poison water and neither will Rhaego.

He doesn't have to tell Dany before because Dany only takes on Viserys's grievances and claims only after he's dead. Only after he's dead and Dany asks him what's up with the deal he made does Drogo state that he's bailing on that.

 

 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The iron chair is moot at that point,

It always was seemed so. If Drogo isn't crossing the poisoned waters for his own fated son, he's certainly not going to do it for a man his wife needs to give him blowjobs into treating to him like a person.

 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

by Illyrio would in fact be a bone-headed rookie mistake that is completely out of character for the man who fought and schemed his way up from the streets to become one of the wealthiest and preeminent figures in the entire world.

Eh, people make mistakes, even rookie mistakes, no matter how capable and intelligent they are. It happens.

But we have reached an impasse and I don't want to derail  @Lyanna<3Rhaegar thread.

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, frenin said:

But he is following Viserys, he's taking orders and advices from Viserys, if it's only to the plunder. Which again, not happening.

Btw, the blood riders already knew Viserys was a little shit and were already mocking him.

 

 

Yeah... Not happening lol.

 

 

Which leads to arrogance.

 

Drogo told Dany he had no intention to do so, post hoc reasoning doesn't change that.

 

He doesn't have to tell Dany before because Dany only takes on Viserys's grievances and claims only after he's dead. Only after he's dead and Dany asks him what's up with the deal he made does Drogo state that he's bailing on that.

 

 

It always was seemed so. If Drogo isn't crossing the poisoned waters for his own fated son, he's certainly not going to do it for a man his wife needs to give him blowjobs into treating to him like a person.

 

Eh, people make mistakes, even rookie mistakes, no matter how capable and intelligent they are. It happens.

But we have reached an impasse and I don't want to derail  @Lyanna<3Rhaegar thread.

Well, if this is what you choose to believe -- that Illyrio is a simpleton who has somehow risen to immense power despite never having learned the basic lesson of not handing over your valuables in exchange for promises, not to mention Jorah who has lived with the Dothraki, ridden with them, learned their customs but still risks his life joining a plot that he knows will go tits up -- then c'est le.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 4/12/2022 at 12:32 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Regarding the stallion, Drogo never mentions it. Him and Dany seemed to have a good marriage where their love transgresses disagreements and they wind up talking most things through together, Drogos injury, all the slaves, all the rape and destruction, etc. Neither mince words, so if Drogos actually this fundamentalist but who sees Jesus everytime he looks in the mirror, well I think we would have heard about that.

Agreed, I don't think Drogo thought he was the stallion. 

 

On 4/12/2022 at 12:32 PM, Hugorfonics said:

A strong possibility is Illyrio doesn't know what he's doing. More like, shooting baskets with his eyes closed. He's got these Targaryens in his backyard and some Dothraki on his porch, maybe they can help Young Griff? It can't hurt. (Lol of course it does)

Yes, or maybe he just isn't putting all his eggs in one basket. 

On 4/12/2022 at 12:32 PM, Hugorfonics said:

What did Drogo think, idk. He certainly knew Viserys was a king, king cart was his nickname after all. If I were to guess, it was on Drogos to do list but he probably didn't want to because Viserys was so annoying and he seemed to think Westeros is the size of Dragonstone and not really a priority or anything difficult that needs to be addressed thoroughly

Sure, I think a gift for Viserys was probably on his to do list. If I had to guess the gift is probably not preplanned. Like Drogo doesn't say ok u give me this, I'll give you that. He may have known Viserys wished a crown or wished to rule the 7k & Drogo just thought if Viserys is worthy he will gift him something of equal value or something. OR Drogo may have thought the gifts he gave Illyrio made it a done deal. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 4/12/2022 at 2:58 PM, John Suburbs said:

Of course he coveted a Targaryen bride. If he didn't want it he wouldn't have married her. She is blood of the dragon. His line can only be enhanced, if only in people's imaginations, by fathering sons on her.

Sure, or maybe he just thought she was pretty. It's possible Targ blood & looks was thought to be something great among the Dothraki or to Drogo alone but we don't really know that. We don't hear one thing from any Dothraki, Illyrio, or Jorah saying the Dothraki or Drogo want a Targ bride. He may have been sold on having a young, beautiful bride. 

On 4/12/2022 at 2:58 PM, John Suburbs said:

Yes, Illyrio has been dealing with Dothraki, and probably Drogo in particular, for quite some time. He would not do this if he wasn't absolutely sure that Drogo would deliver. He didn't get to where he did in life by being trusting or foolish.

I agree Drogo & Illyrio had something worked out but it is only Illyrio who says it's for Viserys to have the 7k. It's perfectly reasonable to suspect that was never the deal from the jump, for all the reasons I've stated. 

On 4/12/2022 at 2:58 PM, John Suburbs said:

Especially now that the fAegon plot has been revealed, why would anyone think Illyrio's plan for Viserys was to make him king? And even before that, we can see that Illyrio is pretty contemptuous of him. Viserys is not hard to read, and again, Illyrio would not be where he is today if he was not a good judge of character

Hmm apparently I'm misunderstanding you because I agree, I think it's highly unlikely that Illyrio did want him to be king, it's one of the reasons I don't believe Drogo ever promised to conquer the 7k for Viserys. 

On 4/12/2022 at 2:58 PM, John Suburbs said:

As I mentioned above, Viserys is not leading this army. He can't even speak to it. They will follow whatever bloodrider Drogo chooses, and their primary objective will be plunder. Viserys is the only one among them who knows where the good plunder is and who can find allies on the continent. And when it all goes tits up and they end up killing him in short order, well, that's all to the good because now there is a horde of Dothraki running amok in Westeros that fAegon can conquer. I honestly think that what's tripping you up is the idea that Illyrio wanted to put Viserys on the throne, but that idea has been eliminated. All Illyrio needs is to get the Dothraki to Westeros.

1. We don't have any indication khals ever make another blood rider a defacto leader to take off with part of their khalasar to plunder or conquer. In fact I would find this highly unlikely as it goes against the idea that the khalasar will follow the strongest - the blood rider is not the strongest. 

2. Viserys does not have the slightest idea where any plunder is OR where he can find allies? Where did you get that from? 

3. We have zero indication Drogo ever intended or was even interested in, let alone promised, to take his khalasar or send part of them to Westeros. We do have indication of the opposite. 

4. Why would Illyrio want the Dothraki in Westeros? Iirc after he finds out Dany has hatched the dragon eggs & is planning on going to Westeros he tries to call her back to Pentos. 

 

On 4/12/2022 at 2:58 PM, John Suburbs said:

If the plan was to hatch eggs with D & V, then why did he give all of this away to the Dothraki? That just means these rabid, mongol horselords now have dragons. The entire continent would burn. He has all the ingredients to hatch these eggs himself, so why wouldn't he just do it?

Well I'm not sold on that idea either but he could have known via some prophecy that they would be hatched in the Dothraki sea. Or he just thought they were stone & never going to hatch. He can't hatch them himself? I would imagine it has to be a Targ doing it. 

 

On 4/12/2022 at 2:58 PM, John Suburbs said:

Drogo only rejected the idea of he himself conquering the 7K and giving Dany the Iron Throne, and only after Viserys was dead. Once that happened, the deal was off and Drogo no longer had any skin in this game -- until the attempt was made on Dany

No, he rejected putting his son on the throne. He said he has no need of it. The plan was never to put Dany on the throne. My issue isn't that he rejected only after V was dead, that's the first time it was brought up to him that we know of & so his first ability to reject it. My issue is that he, nor anyone else, even Jorah who speaks Dothraki, I'm pretty sure, ever mentions anything about any plan to go to Westeros ever. Not while V is alive, not after he is dead. When Dany says it to him his rejections make me believe he never had any intention on going there. We cannot cross the poison waters. How did he plan to cross them when he planned on going there with Viserys? If he had already planned it but nixed it because Viserys was dead, would that not be the reason he gave Dany? 

On 4/12/2022 at 2:58 PM, John Suburbs said:

That Illyrio's plan was to put Viserys on the throne

I'm in agreement here. 

On 4/12/2022 at 2:58 PM, John Suburbs said:

And that he got conned by Drogo into getting his bride

No, I don't think this either. I think Illyrio conned Viserys. Illyrio likely got exactly what he bargained for. It may have been only that Illyrio planned for D&V to die on the Dothraki sea & never thought those eggs would hatch, he just wanted them out of fAegon's way. 

[Seams]

On 4/8/2022 at 8:37 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

1. Did Drogo promise anything? If so what? 

2. Did Drogo even know Viserys expected an army or a crown? 

3. What was in this for Illyrio? 

Some additional thoughts.

I think Drogo in ASOIAF is like Prince Baelor in The Hedge Knight. He is in line to be king but he sacrifices himself so that someone else can move up in the succession. (In the Dunk & Egg story, Maekar moves up directly but I think Baelor's death is intended to indirectly move up Dunk - likely a Blackfyre dragon seed or prince - and Aegon V toward the Iron Throne.)

Like Prince Baelor, Drogo is a larger-than-life, experienced leader. He suffers a wound that is not expected to kill him but it leads to his death. His actual death comes at the hand of a loved one.

If you believe in the power of illustrations, the image of Baelor's death in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms shows a three-headed dragon hatching as the life leaves his body. This would be similar to Drogo's death at the moment the eggs hatch.

I wonder whether the death of Viserys also relates to the death of Prince Baelor? He dies from a melted gold "crown" on his head. Recall that gold is associated with the coins known as gold dragons. (Even though the crown for Viserys is made out of gold medallions from Drogo's belt.)

We know that Prince Baelor borrowed a dragon-shaped helmet for the Trial of Seven. Pate the armorer tells Dunk that fancy helmets don't protect as well as plain armor. (Dunk wears an egg-shaped helmet.) Maybe this also explains why would-be-kings die when they are crowned: the fancy headgear does not protect them the way a plain helmet (or shaved head?) would.

Baelor dies from a gruesome head wound that is hidden until he removes the dragon-shaped helmet. Maybe that sets up a small contrast with the death of Viserys: Baelor dies when his helmet is removed; Viserys dies when his crown is placed on his head.

If the Prince Baelor parallel is correct, I believe Drogo somehow knew (in his heart? subconsciously?) that he would be sacrificing his life to help Dany become queen. The promise was not to Viserys, but to Dany and (he may have hoped) his unborn son.

GRRM sometimes uses a pair of items split from a single source (twins Jaime and Cersei, Lord Walder's castle called The Twins, the sword Ice split into two swords, Aegon the Conqueror having two wives, Sansa becoming Alayne, etc.) so it may be that Drogo and Viserys together are the equivalent of Prince Baelor in the Dunk & Egg story.

I suspect that Illyrio knows that the dragon must have three heads. He may have suspected that Viserys was one of the heads, but he soon realized this was not the case. More likely, he knew that Aegon and Dany were two of the three he needed. The third one would be revealed in some way that fit the prophecy. I'm guessing that the death of Joffrey or the death of Tywin was the event that revealed Tyrion as the third head of the dragon.

Or the revelation may have been something much smaller, such as Tyrion taking the poison mushrooms from Illyrio's garden. I'm sure the network of spies reported every little detail of Tyrion's behavior, and this small move sealed the deal for Illyrio. (The logic behind my thinking here is based in wordplay, so skip this part if you don't like literary analysis.) There is wordplay on "champion" and "champignon," the French word for mushroom. Tyrion declines to be Joffrey's champion in the mummer jousting at the wedding feast. Tyrion also declines to eat mushrooms that Illyrio offers to him, suspecting that they are poison. Illyrio eats the mushrooms, apparently demonstrating that they are not poisoned. Oh well. Essentially, Tyrion turns down Illyrio's invitation to be a champion / champignon. BUT. Tyrion helps himself to mushrooms that he hides in his boot for later. This could demonstrate that he is a hidden "champion," waiting for the right moment to use his "gift." ("Gift" is the German word for "poison.")

The champion, something hidden in the toe of a boot and even the foot inside of that boot may link back to symbols in the Dunk & Egg stories: Dunk wonders whether it would have been worthwhile to let Aerion cut off his foot, if it would have saved Prince Baelor's life. Egg hides a signet ring in his boot. (Does this relate to Illyrio's rings?) Prince Baelor agrees to be a champion of sorts in Dunk's Trial of Seven.

Instead of wondering whether Drogo promised a gift to Viserys, we might do better to examine the gifts Illyrio gives to fAegon / Young Griff, Dany and Tyrion. Young Griff gets a shaved head and a fake father, as well as Septa Lemore, Rolly Duckfield (known as "Duck") and Yandry and Ysilla. Tyrion gets lots of food and a trunk full of used children's clothing. Dany gets a trunk full of fabric and three dragon eggs, Ser Jorah and a powerful husband.

I still think that Illyrio's end game is to hatch dragons that will allow him to become the Kingmaker, putting his game pieces on the iron throne. I suspect that some of the things his players need to reach the throne are not things he can "give" them, however: for instance, each of Dany, Tyrion and fAegon find ways to acquire an army using their own strategies. Dany obtains the Unsullied, Tyrion the mountain clans (and maybe also the Second Sons) and fAegon wins over the Golden Company.

Maybe the hollow promise to provide a Dothraki army in exchange for the sister of Viserys was the way that Viserys was exposed as a non-candidate for the Iron Throne. Among the Free Folk, a man has to "steal" a woman if he wants her. Viserys' failure to obtain his own army showed that he did not have the right stuff to become a king. Similarly, Joffrey received and demanded gifts but he was fairly passive in most aspects of combat or of ruling the kingdom.

Do we seem similar "obtaining an army" moves by other characters? Jon Snow becomes commander of the Night's Watch and of a wildling army. Cersei revives the Warrior's Sons. Do the Faceless Men qualify as Arya's army? Is Lady Stoneheart at the head of the Brotherhood Without Banners army?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 4/12/2022 at 4:56 PM, Evolett said:

Well, legends die hard, histories and tales are passed on orally by unlettered people.  Whey wouldn't the Dothraki have their own tales, stories, superstitions and prophecies about the Valyrians? The Valyrians were mighty and powerful, they rode dragons, they disintegrated in a fiery hell. Surely that is remembered and preserved in one form or other, hazy as it may be. The Targs tried again and again to hatch eggs as Stannis reminded us, and Rhaegar, an educated man, believed in prophecy, why not Drogo or the Dothraki? Daenerys handmaidens told her about the legend of Qarth, a tale presumably much older than Old Valyria, Jorah had heard the Stallion prophecy. If he was aware of it then Drogo must have been, though why he never mentioned it to his wife, I do not know. Perhaps they simply had too few words. Dany was the one doing her best to learn the Dothraki language

Sure, they might have known but I don't think we can take it as a given since it's never mentioned. 

On 4/12/2022 at 4:56 PM, Evolett said:

There is a hightend sense of expectancy here. Dany had successfully devoured the heart but was that enough? Drogo is nervous and tense, there is complete silence. The reader doesn't know what's coming next but Drogo's tension reveals that whatever the crone does or says next is of great importance to him personally. I also find it interesting that Daenerys is allowed to name the child. It's a pity we don't know more about Dothraki customs. Drogo seemed well pleased with Dany's choice after she explains Rhaego is named after her warrior brothe

I thought they always knew the dosh khaleen were going to give a 'prophecy' after Daenerys ate the heart? I figured that's why they were all silent & tense - because they didn't know what was to come. Imagine had the prophecy been true & that's what came out of their mouths, that both Drogo & his son would be dead before long. 

Yeah, he says it's a good name but a Dothraki would think a son named after a warrior would be a good name, right? 

On 4/12/2022 at 4:56 PM, Evolett said:

Besides the element of secrecy, there's the question of security, should dragons actually hatch. We later find out that the Yunkai lust for dragons and can imagine that there are many the world over who would like to own such a beast and who would be prepared to fight a war over ownership as well. A strong khal with a great khalasaar, one personally invested in the prophecy would be a better guarantee against such threats than say Illyrio hatching dragons in his backyard. The khalasaar disbanded after Drogo's death but before the three dragons saw the light of the world. Only a paltry few remained with Dany. What would have happened had the dragons hatched prior to that? More bloodshed, I imagine, with differing motives. 

Makes sense. Definitely a possibility. 

 

On 4/12/2022 at 4:56 PM, Evolett said:

In the event that Illyrio led Viserys into thinking he would receive an army in return for his sister, I wonder if Illyrio lied to Varys about the army as well. If so, why? Possibly because he knew that revealing any plot to hatch dragons might alienate Varys? Varys must have been familiar with Targ attempts to raise dragons and probably also knew that sorcery was involved. He hated sorcery and magic because of his own first hand experience with it and might not have approved at all. 

Whatever the details, I think the idea that Illyrio concieved a plan to hatch dragons and deluded Viserys to get him to part with his sister for an army has merit. GRRM usually gives a hint or two regarding hidden plots within the story. How about this one:

This is Viserys talking to Daenerys shortly before she meets the Khal:

I agree. 

[Evolett]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Do we seem similar "obtaining an army" moves by other characters? Jon Snow becomes commander of the Night's Watch and of a wildling army. Cersei revives the Warrior's Sons. Do the Faceless Men qualify as Arya's army? Is Lady Stoneheart at the head of the Brotherhood Without Banners army?

Theon only has a few men with him when he takes Winterfell. Asha fails to bolster his forces because she doesn't think his capturing Winterfell deep in the North was a good idea. In the end Ramsay disguised as Reek offers to provide an army:

Quote

“And now, my sweet prince, there was a woman promised me, if I brought two hundred men. Well, I brought three times as many, and no green boys nor fieldhands neither, but my father’s own garrison.” Theon had given his word. This was not the time to flinch. Pay him his pound of flesh and deal with him later. “Harrag,” he said, “go to the kennels and bring Palla out for …?”

Ramsay didn't want Palla, though she was the agreed price. He demanded Kyra. Then began Theon's downfall and ordeal, losing his newly won title, his manhood and even his identity for a while. So it would indeed seem that not being able to raise an army by one's own strength or wits has dire consequences. Similar theme with for Stannis who cannot win men to his cause and resorts to killing his brother via Mel's shadow. He does succeed in winning some Northern houses after heeding Jon Snow's advice. 

[James Arryn]

On 4/12/2022 at 5:50 PM, Hugorfonics said:

[Hugorfonics]

On 4/15/2022 at 3:28 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, I think a gift for Viserys was probably on his to do list. If I had to guess the gift is probably not preplanned. Like Drogo doesn't say ok u give me this, I'll give you that. He may have known Viserys wished a crown or wished to rule the 7k & Drogo just thought if Viserys is worthy he will gift him something of equal value or something. OR Drogo may have thought the gifts he gave Illyrio made it a done deal

Word. Illyrio stressed that Viserys should chill at Pentos (like one of his "not slaves"), Im thinking this is because Illyrio wants credit for the gift, or at the least merge him and Viserys together in Drogos mind. 

So it might actually have been the right move for king cart to ride with the Dothraki, but ride, not cart lol. I wonder if Viserys was more like Jaime warrior level, would Drogo have actually been inclined to repay his brother in-law.

On 4/15/2022 at 3:58 PM, Seams said:

Viserys' failure to obtain his own army showed that he did not have the right stuff to become a king. Similarly, Joffrey received and demanded gifts but he was fairly passive in most aspects of combat or of ruling the kingdom.

Do we seem similar "obtaining an army" moves by other characters?

Tyrion's first army was won by guile, but the Second Son's were win by pen, so maybe that won't be beinifical? Also Dany won her initial armies with guile too but how will she win the Dothraki, pure strength? Sansa is also on her way to command an army, by, uh, washing her hair and putting on her prepubescent clothing. Idk if that counts lol.

 

Yo @Seams I gotta a question (which obviously is open to everybody) (it's not really relevant...) Do you see any parallels with Drogo and his Red burning and Theon and his Smiler burning? It's just a horse in fire is such a weird yet powerful image and for it to repeat in back to back books, at the end... well, your better at this stuff then me

[James Arryn]

On 4/15/2022 at 7:23 PM, James Arryn said:

On 4/12/2022 at 5:50 PM, Hugorfonics said:

 

@Hugorfonics

 

Oh, sorry, clearing error. 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 4/10/2022 at 12:41 PM, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I disagree. I agree the Dothraki would stay true to their word but I don't think it's possible he promised to deliver the 7k. If he had why did he act like the idea was so absurd when Dany suggested it after V's death? 

Also, his khalasar is already 40,000 strong. Viserys was just musing that he could take the 7k with 10,000. 

The Dothraki are dangerous customers.  Magister Illyrio Mopatis is not foolish enough to misrepresent the agreement if it were not as he said.  It is very possible to deliver the 7K, tied with a pretty bow, to King Viserys. 

[Hugorfonics]

17 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

@Hugorfonics

 

Oh, sorry, clearing error. 

Word, figured something like that.

I was just fucking around

[Rondo]

Viserys was their best chance at the time to take Westeros.  Propping up Aegon is a lot harder because his identity is in doubt.  Viserys is known.  He doesn't have to be a good general.  He only needs to have the right lineage.

[Seams]

10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Do you see any parallels with Drogo and his Red burning and Theon and his Smiler burning? It's just a horse in fire is such a weird yet powerful image and for it to repeat in back to back books, at the end... well, your better at this stuff then me

I wish I knew. That does sound like deliberate juxtaposition by GRRM. We could have separate threads to discuss burnt horses, smiler symbolism (which is paired with "slayer" symbolism because Stannis asks Jon Snow whether he would prefer a smiler or a slayer to be the new lord of Winterfell) and Drogo/Theon parallels and we probably still wouldn't get to the bottom of the possibilities. 

Your question does raise an interesting point I hadn't considered: I have a hunch that Drogo and his stallion are reborn in the pyre; brought to life in a new way. It may be that Dany has somehow made Drogo immortal and he becomes the sun that rides a horse across the sky (much like Apollo in his chariot). But I always thought that the burning of Theon's horse, Smiler, represented the end of Theon's life as he knew it. Now I wonder whether I was looking at it the wrong way. Could the burning of Smiler also represent a rebirth for Theon? 

Theon with his uncle Aeron and Jon Snow with his uncle Benjen both are told that they are too green and they need to change. I wonder whether the burning of Smiler relates to a "coming of age" moment for Theon that is like Jon Snow's rites of passage among the Night's Watch? The Ironborn don't have much use for horses but Smiler dies quite awhile after Theon has been given command of a ship. So it's not an immediate trade-off between his life on dry land and life at sea. Jon Snow doesn't have a horse that burns but he does ingest the blood of the shaggy garron that goes lame when he is ranging with Qhorin Halfhand. Maybe the burning of Jon's hand is equivalent to the burning horse symbolism. (Barbry Dustin says that Lyanna and Brandon were both half-horse.) 

Relating the horse question back to the central topic here, though: Dany receives many wedding gifts; Viserys does not receive wedding gifts. GRRM goes to some trouble to explain that Joffrey and Margaery receive separate gifts - all of the gifts enumerated in the Tyrion POV (or is it the Sansa POV?) at Joffrey's wedding feast are groom gifts for Joffrey alone. And I found it significant that no one gives Joffrey a horse. He gets riding boots, a saddle, a tent to use at tourneys but no horse. By contrast, Drogo's wedding gift to Dany is her "silver," the unnamed horse that she immediately brings to a gallop and jumps over a fire.

As others have pointed out, instead of riding a horse, Viserys walks after he attacks Dany and she orders that his horse be taken away as punishment; then he rides a cart, which is even a worse debasement. 

I guess my point is, in addition to gifts promised to Viserys, we should look at the things he was not given or that were taken from him. 

Dany also tries to give him an appropriate outfit to wear in the desert which he rejects. Compare this to the trunk full of clothes that Illyrio gives to Tyrion or the fabric he gives to Dany. 

Are there other gifts rejected by, or taken from, Viserys?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 4/15/2022 at 3:58 PM, Seams said:

I think Drogo in ASOIAF is like Prince Baelor in The Hedge Knight. He is in line to be king but he sacrifices himself so that someone else can move up in the succession. (In the Dunk & Egg story, Maekar moves up directly but I think Baelor's death is intended to indirectly move up Dunk - likely a Blackfyre dragon seed or prince - and Aegon V toward the Iron Throne.)

Like Prince Baelor, Drogo is a larger-than-life, experienced leader. He suffers a wound that is not expected to kill him but it leads to his death. His actual death comes at the hand of a loved one.

If you believe in the power of illustrations, the image of Baelor's death in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms shows a three-headed dragon hatching as the life leaves his body. This would be similar to Drogo's death at the moment the eggs hatch.

I wonder whether the death of Viserys also relates to the death of Prince Baelor? He dies from a melted gold "crown" on his head. Recall that gold is associated with the coins known as gold dragons. (Even though the crown for Viserys is made out of gold medallions from Drogo's belt.)

We know that Prince Baelor borrowed a dragon-shaped helmet for the Trial of Seven. Pate the armorer tells Dunk that fancy helmets don't protect as well as plain armor. (Dunk wears an egg-shaped helmet.) Maybe this also explains why would-be-kings die when they are crowned: the fancy headgear does not protect them the way a plain helmet (or shaved head?) would.

Baelor dies from a gruesome head wound that is hidden until he removes the dragon-shaped helmet. Maybe that sets up a small contrast with the death of Viserys: Baelor dies when his helmet is removed; Viserys dies when his crown is placed on his head.

If the Prince Baelor parallel is correct, I believe Drogo somehow knew (in his heart? subconsciously?) that he would be sacrificing his life to help Dany become queen. The promise was not to Viserys, but to Dany and (he may have hoped) his unborn son.

Nice symmetry. Drogo may have "known" the way Dany "knew" how to hatch the eggs, right? 

On 4/15/2022 at 3:58 PM, Seams said:

GRRM sometimes uses a pair of items split from a single source (twins Jaime and Cersei, Lord Walder's castle called The Twins, the sword Ice split into two swords, Aegon the Conqueror having two wives, Sansa becoming Alayne, etc.) so it may be that Drogo and Viserys together are the equivalent of Prince Baelor in the Dunk & Egg story.

I suspect that Illyrio knows that the dragon must have three heads. He may have suspected that Viserys was one of the heads, but he soon realized this was not the case. More likely, he knew that Aegon and Dany were two of the three he needed. The third one would be revealed in some way that fit the prophecy. I'm guessing that the death of Joffrey or the death of Tywin was the event that revealed Tyrion as the third head of the dragon.

Indeed. I've often wondered if part of the dragon needing 3 heads thing is the sacrifice to hatch them, like you need 3 dragons to sacrifice to hatch the eggs. Makes things a little sticky if we think Rhaegar was having children to sacrifice them to hatch eggs though. Still could happen. There were 3 deaths associated with the hatching of the eggs, though that gets all muddied in my mind too. 

It makes sense to me the sacrifices that gave life to the eggs are Rhaego, Drogo, & Viserys. The dragons are even named after them right? But Viserys's death was before this & doesn't seem associated really. Where does MMD's death fit in? Does it have to be a loved one, or sacrifice of the person hatching the eggs? Maybe the death doesn't matter proximity wise, just that the hatcher has sacrificed. 

I do hope Tyrion is the 3rd head. But would also love the irony if it turned out Tyrion was Tywin's only true born child. 

On 4/15/2022 at 3:58 PM, Seams said:

Instead of wondering whether Drogo promised a gift to Viserys, we might do better to examine the gifts Illyrio gives to fAegon / Young Griff, Dany and Tyrion. Young Griff gets a shaved head and a fake father, as well as Septa Lemore, Rolly Duckfield (known as "Duck") and Yandry and Ysilla. Tyrion gets lots of food and a trunk full of used children's clothing. Dany gets a trunk full of fabric and three dragon eggs, Ser Jorah and a powerful husband.

I still think that Illyrio's end game is to hatch dragons that will allow him to become the Kingmaker, putting his game pieces on the iron throne. I suspect that some of the things his players need to reach the throne are not things he can "give" them, however: for instance, each of Dany, Tyrion and fAegon find ways to acquire an army using their own strategies. Dany obtains the Unsullied, Tyrion the mountain clans (and maybe also the Second Sons) and fAegon wins over the Golden Company.

Maybe the hollow promise to provide a Dothraki army in exchange for the sister of Viserys was the way that Viserys was exposed as a non-candidate for the Iron Throne. Among the Free Folk, a man has to "steal" a woman if he wants her. Viserys' failure to obtain his own army showed that he did not have the right stuff to become a king. Similarly, Joffrey received and demanded gifts but he was fairly passive in most aspects of combat or of ruling the kingdom.

Do we seem similar "obtaining an army" moves by other characters? Jon Snow becomes commander of the Night's Watch and of a wildling army. Cersei revives the Warrior's Sons. Do the Faceless Men qualify as Arya's army? Is Lady Stoneheart at the head of the Brotherhood Without Banners army?

Ohh I like this. Indeed. Possibly Illyrio was more than happy to help Viserys along with his army but knew he would either sink or swim. It was a nice surprise when Viserys obviously wasn't going to work but then Dany worked things out on her own. 

I don't think the faceless men qualify as Arya's army, not yet anyway but yeah LSH has her brotherhood without banners, Drogo had his own army until he died. 

Stannis parallel's Viserys in a way I think, he is trying to get his own army but isn't super successful about it & seems to need Jon's help quite a bit. Mance had? has? his own army of sorts. We may see Bran with an army of children of the forest or something. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. Illyrio stressed that Viserys should chill at Pentos (like one of his "not slaves"), Im thinking this is because Illyrio wants credit for the gift, or at the least merge him and Viserys together in Drogos mind. 

So it might actually have been the right move for king cart to ride with the Dothraki, but ride, not cart lol. I wonder if Viserys was more like Jaime warrior level, would Drogo have actually been inclined to repay his brother in-law.

Oh, I think so. I think if Viserys had turned out to be the dragon he claimed to be he would have found himself in a much better situation. He could have been "reborn" in the Dothraki sea, instead it was Dany. 

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion's first army was won by guile, but the Second Son's were win by pen, so maybe that won't be beinifical? Also Dany won her initial armies with guile too but how will she win the Dothraki, pure strength? Sansa is also on her way to command an army, by, uh, washing her hair and putting on her prepubescent clothing. Idk if that counts lol.

 Hey don't let NN hear you! Wonder if she is still around the forums? 

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yo @Seams I gotta a question (which obviously is open to everybody) (it's not really relevant...) Do you see any parallels with Drogo and his Red burning and Theon and his Smiler burning? It's just a horse in fire is such a weird yet powerful image and for it to repeat in back to back books, at the end... well, your better at this stuff then me

haha ikr? I see some parallels but hell if I ever know what they mean. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

20 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The Dothraki are dangerous customers.  Magister Illyrio Mopatis is not foolish enough to misrepresent the agreement if it were not as he said.  It is very possible to deliver the 7K, tied with a pretty bow, to King Viserys. 

What consequence would Illyrio suffer for misrepresenting the agreement to Viserys though? Viserys could not sweep the stables with 10,000 brooms, right? I don't think Illyrio misrepresented anything to Drogo or the Dothraki. 

It's certainly possible but I don't think Illyrio would have wanted Viserys as king to the 7k anyway, why would he? Plus, as I said, had Drogo promised to deliver the 7k in exchange for the marriage the conversation he later has with Dany about conquering the 7k would have been very different IMO.