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Viserys's Gift


Lyanna<3Rhaegar
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20 hours ago, LynnS said:

I wonder if the office of Magister is a political branch of R'Hllor rather than a priestly branch.  If Benerro had visions of Dany hatching eggs and leading the Dthraki; the test is to give her eggs to hatch.  Illyrio downplays the gift; but could just as easily given them to Viserys to buy all the sell swords he wanted.  But he didn't.

How fitting! Right, exactly, Illyrio isn't dumb, he knew Visery's wasn't conquering anything, army or no. 

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19 hours ago, Evolett said:

Perhaps. Viserys might be disposed off and Targaryen women are prone to die during childbirth. But another thought crossed my mind. Drogo's bloodriders could possibly have served as the sacrifice:

Right, lots left up to chance. But if Illyrio was convinced Dany fulfilled the prophecy he would likely have taken the chance. 

Idk about the blood riders. They aren't much of a sacrifice to Dany, also, they are still alive aren't they? They are tasked with taking Dany to Vaes Dothrak & then following their Khal into death. They haven't taken her there yet. Maybe I'm misremembering. 

Also, what then, of Viserys & Rhaego, & Khal Drogo? They had kings blood & were a much more worthy sacrifice where Dany is concerned. 

 

19 hours ago, Evolett said:

As to the question of the other 2 dragons, i.e. Illyrio receiving one while leaving the other two with the Dothraki -  Well, it's possible that the hope was one or two eggs would hatch. On the other hand, a dragon-mounted horselord would have no problems crossing the poison sea and if enlisted by Illyrio later in the game, that would go a long way to consolidating Aegon's power and fulfill the prophecy of the stallion mounting the whole world. Speculation, I know

Sure, it's anyones guess. 

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On 4/9/2022 at 1:09 PM, frenin said:
  • He promised a crown, likely, but not Westeros's. I think he'd conquer any Essosi kingdom and call it a day-
  • Likely he did, not that it mattered.
  • I think that Illyrio always wanted Dany dead in order to spur Drogo into action, in Aegon's instead.

You think so? Just any crown? Idk. 

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On 4/8/2022 at 11:42 PM, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Right but it wouldn't have mattered if Viserys was a strong leader, the Dothraki aren't sell swords right? I don't think Drogo had the power to give any of them away, even those he could afford. He knew Viserys wasn't a Dothraki, I think that alone excludes him from leading a khalasar, or even part of one. 

 

Sure he can. He's the khal. If he doesn't have the power to send them to fight for Viserys, he wouldn't have the power to add them to his own khalasar. And I doubt Viserys would be leading the khalasar himself. There would be a Dothraki leader that they would follow, and this person would follow Viserys' lead as to which targets to attack -- for a while, at least. It's a stupid plan, but Viserys is a stupid guy.

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15 hours ago, Groo said:

Exactly. I don't understand why people take this 10,000 number seriously. Look at the battles we've already seen, the size of the armies, the varied terrain, and the sheer size of the 7k. Only someone like Viserys would think you could just roll through the 7k with 10,000 unarmored horsemen who also, conveniently, have no experience of sieges.

Right, I think Drogo, with his entire khalasar would have a hard time conquering the 7k. Maybe if some people deflected to Dany's side but the entire 7k united in a fight against them? No chance. 

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2 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sure he can. He's the khal. If he doesn't have the power to send them to fight for Viserys, he wouldn't have the power to add them to his own khalasar. And I doubt Viserys would be leading the khalasar himself. There would be a Dothraki leader that they would follow, and this person would follow Viserys' lead as to which targets to attack -- for a while, at least. It's a stupid plan, but Viserys is a stupid guy.

Idk - I'm not in dispute Viserys may have thought things would go this way but my point is he was wrong. We don't have any indication that Khal's ever send a portion of their khalasar to go conquer some area or that they are given as gifts, with or without a defacto leader. They wouldn't follow a Dothraki leader either, that's not the dothraki way. Drogo didn't "command" them to be part of his khalasar, they follow him because he is the strongest. I cannot imagine any Dothraki taking commands from Viserys even if Drogo told them to. 

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3 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Idk - I'm not in dispute Viserys may have thought things would go this way but my point is he was wrong. We don't have any indication that Khal's ever send a portion of their khalasar to go conquer some area or that they are given as gifts, with or without a defacto leader. They wouldn't follow a Dothraki leader either, that's not the dothraki way. Drogo didn't "command" them to be part of his khalasar, they follow him because he is the strongest. I cannot imagine any Dothraki taking commands from Viserys even if Drogo told them to. 

To get a Targaryen bride who brings the blood of the dragon into his line? I'll bet he would. And if Illyrio was not certain that this army would be provided, then what was the point of this whole scheme? Why is he telling the Golden Co that they will join Viserys? What's in it for him if all that happens is both Dany and Viserys die in the grass sea and three virtually priceless dragon eggs end up in Vase Dothrak? 

Khals command their khalasars. They are honor-bound to obey him until a stronger khal comes along. That's the Dothraki way.

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1 minute ago, John Suburbs said:

To get a Targaryen bride who brings the blood of the dragon into his line? I'll bet he would. And if Illyrio was not certain that this army would be provided, then what was the point of this whole scheme? Why is he telling the Golden Co that they will join Viserys? What's in it for him if all that happens is both Dany and Viserys die in the grass sea and three virtually priceless dragon eggs end up in Vase Dothrak? 

Khals command their khalasars. They are honor-bound to obey him until a stronger khal comes along. That's the Dothraki way.

They aren't honour bound to follow a weak leader tho. And since the Dothraki, per the text, followonly strenght, any scheme in which a blood rider is taking Viserys's orders is moot. Perhaps that's when Jorah comes in play, it's much more easier seeing the blood riders following Jorah. Drogo himself afterwards makes it clear he has no intention of crossing the narrow sea and only changes his mind after Dany is the target of an assasination attempt.

Btw, Illyrio does tell Tyrion he expected Dany to die. Yeah that plan sounds messier the more thoughts you give it.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

You think so? Just any crown? Idk. 

I mean ruled out Westeros...

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38 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

How fitting! Right, exactly, Illyrio isn't dumb, he knew Visery's wasn't conquering anything, army or no. 

The price of friendship is cheap.  Illyrio has been playing Viserys.  Dany can see Illyrio manipulating her brother and wonders why he is their friend.  I don't think anything was offered by Drogo in exchange for a high status wife.  She's another one of Illyrio's gifts.  The price of Drogo's friendship is also cheap, but he needs Viserys to give her away. 

The cost of 3 dragons eggs is nothing compared to living dragons. That's the price for Dany's friendship.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

To get a Targaryen bride who brings the blood of the dragon into his line? I'll bet he would. And if Illyrio was not certain that this army would be provided, then what was the point of this whole scheme? Why is he telling the Golden Co that they will join Viserys? What's in it for him if all that happens is both Dany and Viserys die in the grass sea and three virtually priceless dragon eggs end up in Vase Dothrak? 

Khals command their khalasars. They are honor-bound to obey him until a stronger khal comes along. That's the Dothraki way.

I don't know that a Targ bride was that coveted to Drogo or the Dothraki, of course we may get more info later suggesting such but as it stands I don't know. It's a possiblity I suppose. 

Indeed that's the question, what is Illyrio's plan? Illyrio wanted Viserys to stay with him while Dany traveled with the Dothraki, did he think Drogo was going to bring part of his army back to them? Illyrio smirks at Viserys regularly, Dany sees that. I have a hard time believing Illyrio thought it would be of benefit to him for Viserys to lead any army, in fact, I can't seem him wanting Viserys to obtain the IT at all. 

A poster above suggested maybe Dany & Viserys were meant as sacrifices for the eggs to be hatched, intending on giving them to Aegon. It's possible. 

Right, I know they are honor bound until a stronger khal comes along but we don't have any thing setting any precendence for trading or gifting of armies. If Drogo tells them to listen to Viserys - something I find highly unlikely  - first & foremost Drogo is a proud man, Dothraki are a proud people, they call Viserys cart king, they make fun of him, they see him as weak & useless. What kind of Khal would Drogo be to tell his screamers to follow the useless, weak, cart kings, command? I think telling them to do so would likely make them deflect looking for a better khal. This seems in direct opposition to the Dothraki way. 

Also, why, if Drogo intended on either giving some of his khalasar to Viserys to conquer the 7k OR conquering it himself & gifting Viserys the crown, would he act as if it is so absurd when Dany suggests it? If he already intended on doing it why would he argue that it is impossible - that they cannot cross the poisoned waters, that the earth ends in Essos, that Rhaego has no need of Iron chairs? Wouldn't the conversation between them have been different if he had already intended on doing this? 

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48 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The price of friendship is cheap.  Illyrio has been playing Viserys.  Dany can see Illyrio manipulating her brother and wonders why he is their friend.  I don't think anything was offered by Drogo in exchange for a high status wife.  She's another one of Illyrio's gifts.  The price of Drogo's friendship is also cheap, but he needs Viserys to give her away. 

The cost of 3 dragons eggs is nothing compared to living dragons. That's the price for Dany's friendship.

Agreed, I think Drogo gave Illyrio 'gifts' in return for Dany's hand in marriage. Viserys mattered not to either of them. 

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

They aren't honour bound to follow a weak leader tho. And since the Dothraki, per the text, followonly strenght, any scheme in which a blood rider is taking Viserys's orders is moot. Perhaps that's when Jorah comes in play, it's much more easier seeing the blood riders following Jorah. Drogo himself afterwards makes it clear he has no intention of crossing the narrow sea and only changes his mind after Dany is the target of an assasination attempt.

Btw, Illyrio does tell Tyrion he expected Dany to die. Yeah that plan sounds messier the more thoughts you give it.

I agree. I don't think there is a chance Drogo planned on giving any portion of his khalasar to Viserys, nor did he plan on conquering the 7k for him. 

Definitely a mess! 

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20 hours ago, Allardyce said:

The Magister would know whether the king can get a girl pregnant or not.  Viserys was unable to produce.  He is unfortunately already crowned and by all the laws, the king of Westeros.  The Dothraki will win the kingdom for him and an heir will be suitably presented to succeed.  Daenerys meanwhile becomes khaleesi and births the Stallion Who Will Mount The World.  The one being who will unite all of the khalasars into one mighty people to rule the near East.  The plan went awry when Viserys, Drogo, and Rhaego were killed.  They got something better in return though.  Daenerys and her three dragons were reborn.  

Where did you hear that Viserys was sterile?

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5 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Idk about the blood riders. They aren't much of a sacrifice to Dany, also, they are still alive aren't they? They are tasked with taking Dany to Vaes Dothrak & then following their Khal into death. They haven't taken her there yet. Maybe I'm misremembering. 

Also, what then, of Viserys & Rhaego, & Khal Drogo? They had kings blood & were a much more worthy sacrifice where Dany is concerned. 

What I meant was because of the nature of their blood bond with the Khal, blood of my blood / single life, it's possible that the sacrifice of blood-riders would have had equal value. I'm not saying they were sacrificed to hatch the eggs, no. If Illyrio never meant for Viserys to join the Khalasaar then he couldn't have regarded him as a sacrifice. From Illyrio's point of view both  Daenerys and Drogo would have to stay alive. The Khalasaar would have disbanded on the Khal's death, had he been sacrificed and he would have lost a potential rider in Daenerys too, had she been sacrificed. This risk also included potentially losing any hatched dragons to new khals and khalasaars. So somehow, if any of this has merit, it seems unlikely Illyrio would have wanted either Drogo or Daenerys to die for the hatchings. My argument is because of  the nature of the blood-brotherhood, Ilyrio (and maybe even Drogo), was perhaps of  the opinion that the Khal's blood-riders would serve.  

There's another reason I think the Stallion who mounts the world was thought by the dosh khaleen / Drogo and perhaps some insiders to be a dragon-rider: the fact that a Khal shares everything with his blood-riders, even his wife, with the exception of his horse. The Vaylrians never shared their dragons either. Once bonded that was it until the dragon's owner died. Only then would the dragon accept a new rider. 

The features of Valyrians stand out and must be as well known as their mastery of dragons in the East, even by the Dothraki. If Drogo was looking to marry a woman with Valyrian ancestry, he must have known what features to look out for. The Dothraki moreover share similarities with the Valyrians – thirst for conquest (century of blood), slavery, cremation and perhaps the desire for power, to mount the world on dragons. That they appear to be barbaric and disorganized should not fool us. Coming to think of it, if Illyrio’s purpose was to hatch dragons, there was no place better than in the middle of the Dothraki Sea. Far away from all eyes (except Jorah’s – there’s always a bear, lol), embedded in the midst of a strong Khal who had never lost a battle, surrounded by a great Khalasaar… the venture had its risks for sure and it was a gamble as well and if it had gone wrong, no one would have cared except for Viserys, who would have fumed at the loss of “his army” but I think that would have been the least of Illyrio’s problems.    

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On 4/10/2022 at 1:09 PM, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

But why, if Drogo had promised to put Viserys on the throne would Drogo act like the idea of invading Westeros is absurd when Dany is trying to convince him of it? More over why would Illyrio make that a condition of their contract? He sees Viserys, he knows he is a blowhard & not likely to make a good king, why would he want V on the throne? 

Blowhard or not, Viserys was King Viserys III.  The son of the last Targaryen king to sit on their Iron Throne, King Aerys II.  The King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men. Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.  

Arya overheard a conversation between Varys and Illyrio.  They were planning to have the Dothraki cross the sea and kick Robert's bum off the throne.  Ned's death was even talked about.  

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55 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Blowhard or not, Viserys was King Viserys III.  The son of the last Targaryen king to sit on their Iron Throne, King Aerys II.  The King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men. Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.  

Arya overheard a conversation between Varys and Illyrio.  They were planning to have the Dothraki cross the sea and kick Robert's bum off the throne.  Ned's death was even talked about.  

Illyrio may have had many plans but that doesn't mean Drogo knew. It's any ones guess what Illyrio may have planned but what indication is there that Drogo planned to gift Viserys the throne? 

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15 hours ago, Evolett said:

What I meant was because of the nature of their blood bond with the Khal, blood of my blood / single life, it's possible that the sacrifice of blood-riders would have had equal value. I'm not saying they were sacrificed to hatch the eggs, no. If Illyrio never meant for Viserys to join the Khalasaar then he couldn't have regarded him as a sacrifice. From Illyrio's point of view both  Daenerys and Drogo would have to stay alive. The Khalasaar would have disbanded on the Khal's death, had he been sacrificed and he would have lost a potential rider in Daenerys too, had she been sacrificed. This risk also included potentially losing any hatched dragons to new khals and khalasaars. So somehow, if any of this has merit, it seems unlikely Illyrio would have wanted either Drogo or Daenerys to die for the hatchings. My argument is because of  the nature of the blood-brotherhood, Ilyrio (and maybe even Drogo), was perhaps of  the opinion that the Khal's blood-riders would serve.  

I see. It's possible Illyrio didn't want Viserys to join the khalasar because he intended on "sacrificing" him. 

I don't know if Daenerys & Drogo would have to stay alive from Illyrio's point of view, what makes you think that? Indeed the khalasar would have disbanded, but that is exactly what happened & we still got dragons. I agree Illyrios plan left much up to chance if we are on the right path but that would be the same for the blood riders, right? Drogo would not have sacrificed his riders. I agree he may have wanted Dany to stay alive, intending her to be a rider

15 hours ago, Evolett said:

There's another reason I think the Stallion who mounts the world was thought by the dosh khaleen / Drogo and perhaps some insiders to be a dragon-rider: the fact that a Khal shares everything with his blood-riders, even his wife, with the exception of his horse. The Vaylrians never shared their dragons either. Once bonded that was it until the dragon's owner died. Only then would the dragon accept a new rider. 

Interesting. So you think Drogo knew of whatever plan there may have been to hatch eggs? He doesn't seem to push things in that direction though, or mention it at all. He also seems pretty naive to the ways of the world outside of the Dothraki. He thinks you cannot cross the poison waters & that the world ends at the end of the Dothraki sea. 

15 hours ago, Evolett said:

The features of Valyrians stand out and must be as well known as their mastery of dragons in the East, even by the Dothraki. If Drogo was looking to marry a woman with Valyrian ancestry, he must have known what features to look out for. The Dothraki moreover share similarities with the Valyrians – thirst for conquest (century of blood), slavery, cremation and perhaps the desire for power, to mount the world on dragons. That they appear to be barbaric and disorganized should not fool us. Coming to think of it, if Illyrio’s purpose was to hatch dragons, there was no place better than in the middle of the Dothraki Sea. Far away from all eyes (except Jorah’s – there’s always a bear, lol), embedded in the midst of a strong Khal who had never lost a battle, surrounded by a great Khalasaar… the venture had its risks for sure and it was a gamble as well and if it had gone wrong, no one would have cared except for Viserys, who would have fumed at the loss of “his army” but I think that would have been the least of Illyrio’s problems.    

Maybe, no one comments on it among the Dothraki, of course we only really have Dany's limited supply of the dothraki language in which to hear things through. Her hand maids seem to know there used to be dragons but they don't comment on Dany's Valyrian looks either iirc. 

I think the question is why would Drogo be looking to marry a woman with Valyrian ancestry? Surely, if he is hip on the dragon stuff he knows they died a long time ago & that no one has been able to successfully hatch more eggs. Maybe Illyrio convinced him he knows how? But that leads us back to the question, why did Drogo not mention it? Not tell Dany to do whatever it was Illyrio thought would hatch them? 

What makes the Dothraki sea the best place to hatch dragons? Far away from other eyes, sure but why would it need to be in the midst of a strong Khal who never lost a battle? 

I agree Illyrio had some plan but I don't think we have hit on it yet, what we have come up with just leaves too much to chance. I suppose unless Illyrio had some prophecy knowledge & believed by sending Dany with Drogo & the eggs it would work out. Idk, such an enigma. 

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10 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Giving Dany 3 dragon eggs with the hope of hatching dragons amongst the Dothraki seems to me a pretty suicidal move for anyone living in Essos. 

Why? The dragons are small & fairly harmless when they hatch & this is ultimately what happens - dragons hatch in Essos & it doesn't appear to be suicidal for anyone. 

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20 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Agreed, I think Drogo gave Illyrio 'gifts' in return for Dany's hand in marriage. Viserys mattered not to either of them. 

 What do you think Drogo gave in return?  I think Illyrio was taking out an insurance policy by purchasing Drogo's favor.

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