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Viserys's Gift


Lyanna<3Rhaegar
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12 hours ago, Rondo said:

Viserys was their best chance at the time to take Westeros.  Propping up Aegon is a lot harder because his identity is in doubt.  Viserys is known.  He doesn't have to be a good general.  He only needs to have the right lineage.

Sure but that doesn't mean Drogo promised to do it, right? Illyrio says Drogo promised but we never get anything from Drogo suggesting that is the truth. 

 

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On 4/14/2022 at 11:05 AM, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, no, you have it completely wrong. The general is only following Viserys to the plunder. He is not giving him command. And nobody would know that Vis was such a weak leader until they got to Westeros anyway, which is all Illyrio wants.

But the whole khalasar knows Viserys is weak long before they even reach Vaes Dothrak, let alone the 7k. Also, how would Viserys know where any plunder is? 

On 4/14/2022 at 11:05 AM, John Suburbs said:

The vast majority of grunts would only see him from a distance, and none of them speak his language, so as long as they win their battles, Vis is a strong leader as far as they are concerned. But as I said, once they ditch him, all the better for Illyrio, who has no intention of letting him take the throne.

But he isn't. The khalasar calls him cart king, they make fun of him. He wears around his soiled silks, puts his hand on a sword he has no idea how to use, the Dothraki see this. 

On 4/14/2022 at 11:05 AM, John Suburbs said:

Illyrio is not stupid. Ned is. Illyrio has been dealing with Dothraki all his life. He knows what their code is. Drogo would have honored his word. We barely hear him speak about anything until the wine merchant, so just because we don't have a PoV confirming this means nothing. His decision after Viserys is dead is that he will not cross the poison water and neither will Rhaego. The iron chair is moot at that point, but there is no reason to think he would have gone back on his word to send others of his khal to Westeros. So what you characterize as a "miscalculation" by Illyrio would in fact be a bone-headed rookie mistake that is completely out of character for the man who fought and schemed his way up from the streets to become one of the wealthiest and preeminent figures in the entire world.

To believe Drogo did not promise what Illyrio presented to Viserys does not indicate Illyrio is stupid? 

We have no idea if the decision to not cross poision waters is only made after Viserys is dead because we have nothing before that. 

I don't know about frenin because I haven't read every exchange but I am not suggesting Drogo would go back on his word, I'm suggesting that wasn't what Drogo promised to begin with. 

On 4/15/2022 at 10:17 AM, John Suburbs said:

Well, if this is what you choose to believe -- that Illyrio is a simpleton who has somehow risen to immense power despite never having learned the basic lesson of not handing over your valuables in exchange for promises, not to mention Jorah who has lived with the Dothraki, ridden with them, learned their customs but still risks his life joining a plot that he knows will go tits up -- then c'est le.

Sorry for jumping in, I know this isn't to me but I'm curious to know why you think Viserys knows where to plunder & why you are convinced this was the promise Drogo made to Illyrio? 

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9 hours ago, Seams said:

Your question does raise an interesting point I hadn't considered: I have a hunch that Drogo and his stallion are reborn in the pyre; brought to life in a new way. It may be that Dany has somehow made Drogo immortal and he becomes the sun that rides a horse across the sky (much like Apollo in his chariot). But I always thought that the burning of Theon's horse, Smiler, represented the end of Theon's life as he knew it. Now I wonder whether I was looking at it the wrong way. Could the burning of Smiler also represent a rebirth for Theon? 

I think so, this would be the equivalent of killing the boy for Theon but it didn't go quite right. 

9 hours ago, Seams said:

Are there other gifts rejected by, or taken from, Viserys?

He wants the eggs, tries to steal them but when Dany says she will give them to him it is no consolation. He wants his crown. 

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I’ll just say that with respect to khals delegating command and control to sub-commanders, no military force would be able to operative effectively without allowing for some of that and nomadic/cavalry dominant forces specifically rely heavily on same. Subotai, as one example, was given several highly independent and wide ranging commands that could last for years under Mongol khans. And anyone disobeying him in that time would be received more or less as disobeying his khan. 
 

Now whether Viserys himself would/could be given such authority is a completely separate matter, but operating as a puppet leader alongside a real sub-commander assigned by Drogo is probably pretty doable.

Edited by James Arryn
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23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

parallels ... a horse in fire

I woke up with some additional thoughts on the horse symbolism and the connection to gifts for Viserys. 

Another character who rides a cart is Arya: after she attacks Hot Pie with a wooden sword, Yoren spanks her. Because of her sore butt, she rides in a cart for awhile as she makes her escape from King's Landing with the Night's Watch recruits. If the attack on Hot Pie is comparable in some way to the attack by Viserys on Dany, then we have another parallel here. 

I think the Viserys / Arya comparison may include additional elements:

Arya receives a special coin from Jaqen (who also rode on a cart, with Rorge and Biter). I think coins are related to royalty because they often include a sigil or portrait of a king. We have already noted the melted gold on the head of Viserys being identified with gold dragon coins as well as a symbolic "crown." 

When Arya escaped King's Landing, she left behind a trunk packed with her clothes that had been made ready for Ned's planned voyage away from the city. This could be similar to Viserys rejecting the clothes Dany prepared for him and a contrast to the trunks of accepted clothes and fabric given by Illyrio to Dany and Tyrion. 

Later, on board the Titan's Daughter, Arya is given gifts by the sailors: fingerless gloves, a floppy hat and a silver fork. Eventually, she will throw these things in a canal. Based on Rohanne Webber's actions in The Sworn Sword, the Tully "burial" customs and on Lady Stoneheart's emergence from the Green Fork, I believe that throwing things in a river or canal can be a way to ingest and / or internalize the powers of something or someone. Of course, rebirth usually ensues. 

Floppy hats are associated with hidden Targs - Egg in The Hedge Knight, fAegon / Young Griff - but also with Sam Tarly. So Arya's floppy hat may be a deliberate parallel to the molten crown for Viserys. GRRM doesn't specify that Arya's hat is a straw hat, as he does for some of the other floppy hats. Straw is associated with Brienne's hair and possibly with Bran's murdered guard, Hayhead, and with the jousting dummy that knocks Tommen off of his horse. 

I suspect the fingerless gloves may be a symbolic allusion to Qhorin Halfhand or some of the other characters associated with finger mutilation - Theon (again!) or the Ironborn who play the finger dance game involving a sharp knife. It could also relate to Sansa being at The Fingers with Littlefinger - one sister has plentiful fingers while the other does not. Recall, too, that Ser Jorah makes a point of giving gloves as a carefully-selected gift for the Widow of the Waterfront. She seems pleased that they will hide her wrinkled hands. Theon will wear gloves to hide his flayed fingers from the nobles gathered at Winterfell. Jon Snow wears moleskin gloves to cover his burned hand when he tries to desert at the end of AGoT. Arya is about to become a master of disguises. How do the gloves link back to, or foreshadow, what is in store for her? 

The silver fork almost certainly relates to the Trident River with its red, blue and green forks. Especially after Arya throws it into a canal. Why is Arya's fork silver, though? This is a color associated, again, with Targaryen hair and with Dany's horse / gift from Drogo. In the Dunk & Egg discussion in the re-read forum, I connected silver with the sigil color "argent," which links through wordplay to garnets. Dunk finds a chipped garnet in the purse carried by Ser Arlan of Pennytree and Sam Tarly obtains garnets in Moles Town for the eyes of the newly-reworked direwolf hilt of Long Claw before it is given to Jon Snow. 

So gifts are ingredients in a sort of coming-of-age stew (or should we call it Weasel Soup?) that Arya is making in the canal as she reinvents a new identity for herself. It is probably important to note that she takes on different names during this process of rebirth. At the point when she attacks Hot Pie and rides in the cart, she is called Arry. This may be a deliberate allusion to the common Targaryen given name, Aerys, which would create another royalty parallel for Arya. The names Nymeria and Salty (born in salt and smoke) may also tie Arya to some royal symbolism. Her "Cat of the Canals" name might also imply that she is like "Catelyn of the Riverlands," who was originally raised to be the heir of Hoster Tully. 

Also interesting to note that we see other things go into the canal soup, aside from Arya's gifts: Dareon the Night's Watch singer, recruiter and deserter (but without his purple boots), and Sam Tarly, who is pulled out by a Summer Islander. (I suspect the Summer Islanders are symbolic Starks, but the symbolism may be more complex than that. Because of Bran's wolf, the Summer Islanders may be specifically symbolic Bran Starks. Nice that Sam helped Bran to pass under the Wall and "Bran" helps to save Sam from a canal.) 

My thinking is starting to converge: If Drogo knew (in a literary sense) that he had to sacrifice himself to advance Dany as a queen (see above - comparison to Prince Baelor's death), his gifts to her (and to Viserys) would also be part of his effort. He was helping to create a coming-of-age soup for Dany. (Illyrio, the Dosh Khaleen, Ser Jorah, Viserys and others also gave gifts that go into the recipe.) If Viserys was also part of the Baelor-like sacrifice of a would-be king, this helps to further explain the birth of the three dragons bearing the names of Drogo, Viserys and Rhaego. 

When Dany becomes a dragon rider, she looks at the eye of Drogon and describes it as looking "molten." This could represent Dany seizing her own crown, comparable to the molten gold that was Drogo's "gift" to Viserys. (Through wordplay, I think that "molten" also links to Dany yearning to locate the "lemon" tree she remembered from her childhoood.) 

I bet that Brienne killing Shagwell, Timeon and Pyg or maybe the killings of Rorge (by Brienne) and Biter (by Gendry), are deaths necessary for completing the rebirth of Arya. Interesting that Arya's goal as a Faceless Man is to give "gifts" to others. 

Similarly, I wonder whether the three deaths of Tywin, Kevan and Pycelle are the necessary "three deaths" for Tyrion's arc? 

Edit: I meant to note, too, that one of Arya's names is "horseface." This could link to the horse symbolism because, like Lyanna and uncle Brandon, she carries her own horse internally and does not have to receive a horse as a gift. It may provide a further link to Viserys, too: if Viserys is destined to be the woken dragon Viseryon, he embodies the "mount" that he was lacking externally - when Dany took his horse or when Drogo gave him a cart to ride. 

Edited by Seams
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1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

I’ll just say that with respect to khals delegating command and control to sub-commanders, no military force would be able to operative effectively without allowing for some of that and nomadic/cavalry dominant forces specifically rely heavily on same. Subotai, as one example, was given several highly independent and wide ranging commands that could last for years under Mongol khans. And anyone disobeying him in that time would be received more or less as disobeying his khan. 
 

Now whether Viserys himself would/could be given such authority is a completely separate matter, but operating as a puppet leader alongside a real sub-commander assigned by Drogo is probably pretty doable.

I don't disagree & it's not the hill I want to die on but we haven't heard of any khalasar's breaking up for part of them to go one way & the other to go another. It could happen but because we don't hear about it, coupled with other things I just don't think the intention was ever to give Viserys an army. 

 

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On 4/15/2022 at 3:51 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, or maybe he just thought she was pretty. It's possible Targ blood & looks was thought to be something great among the Dothraki or to Drogo alone but we don't really know that. We don't hear one thing from any Dothraki, Illyrio, or Jorah saying the Dothraki or Drogo want a Targ bride. He may have been sold on having a young, beautiful bride. 

I agree Drogo & Illyrio had something worked out but it is only Illyrio who says it's for Viserys to have the 7k. It's perfectly reasonable to suspect that was never the deal from the jump, for all the reasons I've stated. 

Hmm apparently I'm misunderstanding you because I agree, I think it's highly unlikely that Illyrio did want him to be king, it's one of the reasons I don't believe Drogo ever promised to conquer the 7k for Viserys. 

1. We don't have any indication khals ever make another blood rider a defacto leader to take off with part of their khalasar to plunder or conquer. In fact I would find this highly unlikely as it goes against the idea that the khalasar will follow the strongest - the blood rider is not the strongest. 

2. Viserys does not have the slightest idea where any plunder is OR where he can find allies? Where did you get that from? 

3. We have zero indication Drogo ever intended or was even interested in, let alone promised, to take his khalasar or send part of them to Westeros. We do have indication of the opposite. 

4. Why would Illyrio want the Dothraki in Westeros? Iirc after he finds out Dany has hatched the dragon eggs & is planning on going to Westeros he tries to call her back to Pentos. 

 

Well I'm not sold on that idea either but he could have known via some prophecy that they would be hatched in the Dothraki sea. Or he just thought they were stone & never going to hatch. He can't hatch them himself? I would imagine it has to be a Targ doing it. 

 

No, he rejected putting his son on the throne. He said he has no need of it. The plan was never to put Dany on the throne. My issue isn't that he rejected only after V was dead, that's the first time it was brought up to him that we know of & so his first ability to reject it. My issue is that he, nor anyone else, even Jorah who speaks Dothraki, I'm pretty sure, ever mentions anything about any plan to go to Westeros ever. Not while V is alive, not after he is dead. When Dany says it to him his rejections make me believe he never had any intention on going there. We cannot cross the poison waters. How did he plan to cross them when he planned on going there with Viserys? If he had already planned it but nixed it because Viserys was dead, would that not be the reason he gave Dany? 

I'm in agreement here. 

No, I don't think this either. I think Illyrio conned Viserys. Illyrio likely got exactly what he bargained for. It may have been only that Illyrio planned for D&V to die on the Dothraki sea & never thought those eggs would hatch, he just wanted them out of fAegon's way. 

Come on. Drogo has plenty of pretty women to choose from, women he can speak to, and he could have had any one of them without dishonoring himself with this fake promise. Dany is the last marriable dragon. That's why he wanted her. And Illyrio does say that it's her Targ blood that's important, even as he praises her beauty:

Quote

"Look at her. The silver-gold hair, those purple eyes . . . she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt . . . and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo."

So why would Drogo go through all this trouble for a bride when all he wants is a pretty face, and why would Illyrio care that there is no doubt that she is the blood of old Valyria?

No, it's not reasonable that there was some other deal. Jorah knows the customs of the Dothraki. He's lived with them, he's ridden with him, and his goal is to reclaim his home. Why would he join this scheme if he knows he's not getting what he wants out of it?

We see what Illyrio's plan is later: for Aegon to become king. So obviously he expects Viserys to die. But all he needs out of Viserys is to get the Dothraki to Westeros.

Khals are the kings of their khalasars. If Drogo commands it, it will be done, or else he will slaughter those who disobey and scatter their body parts on the ground so they never ride into the nightlands. It is the most terrible fate for a Dothraki.

Viserys knows all the houses of the 7K. Knows the geography of the land, where the castles are, and probably has a good idea of where the weakest, easiest targets are. He also speaks the language. But again, it's not important what happens to him after they reach Westeros. Once the Dothraki are there, they are there and will provide the impetus needed for Aegon to save the day.

We have Illyrio and Jorah, both of whom know Dothraki customs, basing this whole operation on Drogo keeping his word. And for Illyrio in particular, this would be one of the first lessons on his rise from street braavo to magister: don't hand over your goods for promises. Words are wind.

My guess is that Illyrio wants the Dothraki in Westeros to create a crisis that Aegon can then fix, becoming the hero of the realm. From there, it's a piece of cake for him to be proclaimed king. But regardless, a Dothraki invasion is part of his plan, as he explains to Varys. And all of this is happening before Dany hatched the eggs and Drogo died, and his promise (and khalasar) with him.

I also suspect that Illyrio wants Dany back in Pentos so he could take control of the dragons before they became too large and powerful, and probably kill her in the process. She is a wild card in his plans now because she is a rival to Aegon's crown.

 

He could have heard some prophecy about the eggs? Now who's suggesting things that have no indication in the text? It must be a Targ who does it? He had Targs, two of them, and the eggs? He had everything he needed to hatch them himself, so again, why give all of this power to Drogo?

 

Sure, he rejects the idea of putting his son or Dany on the throne, because that was never the plan. Nor was Drogo going to go. Only Viserys, and Viserys is dead so the whole deal is off. Jorah speaks repeatedly about Viserys getting his army:

Quote

"The khal will honor his promise in his own time."

". . . the Dothraki look on these things differently than we do in the west. I have told him as much, as Illyrio has told him, but your brother does not listen. the horselords are no traders. Viserys thinks he sold you and now he wants his price. Yet Khal Drogo would say he had you as a gift. He will give Viserys a gift in return . . . in his own time."

Again, Jorah wants to get back to Westeros as well, so there is no reason for him to go along with all of this if he isn't 100 percent certain that Drogo is true to his word. There is another quote somewhere in Game where he says as much, but I can't find it right now.

 

If all Illyrio wanted for the V&D to die, then why not just kill them and bury them in his wine cellar? Why go through all this trouble, and give up three virtually priceless dragon eggs, to do what he can do in an instant with no muss, no fuss? Why would he even take them in at all if he just wants to kill them? What, exactly, is Illyrio "getting what he bargained for" in all of this?

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3 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

But the whole khalasar knows Viserys is weak long before they even reach Vaes Dothrak, let alone the 7k. Also, how would Viserys know where any plunder is? 

But he isn't. The khalasar calls him cart king, they make fun of him. He wears around his soiled silks, puts his hand on a sword he has no idea how to use, the Dothraki see this. 

To believe Drogo did not promise what Illyrio presented to Viserys does not indicate Illyrio is stupid? 

We have no idea if the decision to not cross poision waters is only made after Viserys is dead because we have nothing before that. 

I don't know about frenin because I haven't read every exchange but I am not suggesting Drogo would go back on his word, I'm suggesting that wasn't what Drogo promised to begin with. 

Sorry for jumping in, I know this isn't to me but I'm curious to know why you think Viserys knows where to plunder & why you are convinced this was the promise Drogo made to Illyrio? 

Yes, but that's only because Viserys chose to ride with them. And again, they would not be following Viserys. They follow Drogo, who tells them to cross the poison water, and if they don't they are killed a chopped up into little bits. Viserys is from the 7K. He knows where the lords and their castles are. But again (and again and again and again), none of this matters because all Illyrio needs is for the Dothraki to reach Westeros.

Yes it does indicate Illyrio is stupid, incredibly so. Only a complete moron would hand over his valuables on a promise to be paid back later, especially when those valuables are being dragged halfway across the continent. This is one of the first lessons he would have learned on the streets of Pentos, otherwise he never would have risen to the station he occupies today.

The decision is that Drogo will not cross the poison water, nor will Dany of Rhaego. The plan was for Viserys. And the reason we don't hear this from Drogo's mouth beforehand is that he doesn't speak in a language that any POV can understand, except the word No. You are arguing that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, and that is always a wrong turn in any logical deduction.

If things had worked out to the plan, Drogo would not have gone back on his word. There is no way either Illyrio or Jorah would commit to this plan just on a promise. Sorry.

Viserys is from the 7K, speaks the language, knows all the great houses. He knows far more about what's what and where the wealth is than any Dothraki. They would keep him just for that reason, but once again, this is all irrelevant to Illyrio. 

 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I don't disagree & it's not the hill I want to die on but we haven't heard of any khalasar's breaking up for part of them to go one way & the other to go another. It could happen but because we don't hear about it, coupled with other things I just don't think the intention was ever to give Viserys an army. 

 

Yeah, I’m not saying Drogo intended to…if forced to choose I’d guess not, at least not as the individual act of conquering Westeros for Viserys by assigning him and army and sun commander. I think the only ways I could see it happening would be:

1) As a whole, with Drogo leading, both for Dany/Rhaegho and to honour the deal if there was one, though whether that would be for Viserys himself, Viserys as a ~ vassal of Drogo, or ultimately for Dany/Rhaego de facto and Viserys ~ de jure.
 

2) As a kind of profitable chevauchee-to-Great Heathen Army or Canute style raid, conquest, or raid with conquest possibilities. Ie, if Drogo could be convinced that the Poisoned Water could safely be overcome, he might do it for some kind of profit, ranging from a great raid of relatively untouched (from a raiding/booty pic) land abundant with assets to acquire to a further extension of his own domain/prestige. This could be led by Drogo himself or a sub-commander or sub-commanders depending upon how ambitious he is about it. I suppose Viserys could tag along in any of these but probably as a side-show puppet. 
 

3) And lastly the closest I could see to what Illyrio suggested/Viserys wants, if either there was a deal or he wearied of Viserys bitching (but would not just have him silenced w/o committing a grave offense as per novels) or to kinda placate Dany, I could see him either choosing a particularly troublesome, ambitious or sub-par sub-commander/army or kinda put together a barrel of the baddest apples army and send them off with/~ under Viserys in a win-win ‘why not’ scenario where he either technically upholds his deal-if-there-is-one, or otherwise dealing with in-laws and at the same time either ridding himself of threats/lesser commanders or the less effective troops or adding to his conquests or bringing back lots of loot. In any of these cases I think he would welcome the better results but not be too bothered by any of the worst outcomes. 

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Come on. Drogo has plenty of pretty women to choose from, women he can speak to, and he could have had any one of them without dishonoring himself with this fake promise. Dany is the last marriable dragon. That's why he wanted her. And Illyrio does say that it's her Targ blood that's important, even as he praises her beauty:

Maybe, like I said it's definitely possible. He may have wanted her for her Targ blood but I don't think that means much when we are talking about what he promised to Illyrio in return for the marriage. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

So why would Drogo go through all this trouble for a bride when all he wants is a pretty face, and why would Illyrio care that there is no doubt that she is the blood of old Valyria?

That's the thing is we don't know of really any trouble Drogo went through to marry her. We know he gave Illyrio horses & slaves. I do wonder why, for all the talk of the Dothraki doing things in their own time, their own way etc Drogo gives Illyrio his "gifts" upon marrying her. 

I'm not sure, it may be just as you say - that Drogo coveted a bride of old Valyria. I've always read that passage to mean that Illyrio thinks she is beautiful because of her Targ looks & that the looks will entrance Drogo, but either way. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

No, it's not reasonable that there was some other deal. Jorah knows the customs of the Dothraki. He's lived with them, he's ridden with him, and his goal is to reclaim his home. Why would he join this scheme if he knows he's not getting what he wants out of it?

I disagree. I think it's perfectly reasonable to ponder over a potential different deal. Jorah is exiled, we know why he was going along, to betray Dany & be allowed to return to Westeros for it. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

We see what Illyrio's plan is later: for Aegon to become king. So obviously he expects Viserys to die. But all he needs out of Viserys is to get the Dothraki to Westeros.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

We see what Illyrio's plan is later: for Aegon to become king. So obviously he expects Viserys to die. But all he needs out of Viserys is to get the Dothraki to Westeros.

Sorry the quoting isn't working right. So, he expects Viserys to die, but expects him to die after reaching the 7k & also expects him to show the Dothraki where the plunder is but wants him to stay in Pentos? Don't those things seem contradictory? He also tells Tyrion he expected them both to die iirc. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Khals are the kings of their khalasars. If Drogo commands it, it will be done, or else he will slaughter those who disobey and scatter their body parts on the ground so they never ride into the nightlands. It is the most terrible fate for a Dothraki

Sure, if Drogo commands it. We will probably just have to agree to disagree here because I don't find it very likely that half of your khalasar is sent off on some mission while the remaining stay behind. How did Drogo expect to meet back up with the rest of his khalasar? The only possiblity, IMO is that Drogo planned on leading the khalasar himself. But I don't think he did plan any such thing because of the way he responds to Dany when she wants him to go to Westeros. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Viserys knows all the houses of the 7K. Knows the geography of the land, where the castles are, and probably has a good idea of where the weakest, easiest targets are. He also speaks the language. But again, it's not important what happens to him after they reach Westeros. Once the Dothraki are there, they are there and will provide the impetus needed for Aegon to save the day.

I don't think so. Viserys was 8 when he left. How many 8 year olds have a good handle on geography, let alone who the weakest targets are, & things have likely changed a bit since he left. Besides, Illyrio has Varys who certainly knows much better than Viserys. 

Jorah is there - he speaks both languages. A much better guide than Viserys, no? 

Besides you are pulling this out of thin air, there is nothing to suggest Viserys knows any thing more than what an 8 year old who left their home many years before would remember of the land. They don't need Viserys for this. 

If it made no difference to Illyrio who did it make a difference to? Who wanted Viserys along to show them where the castles & plunder are? 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

We have Illyrio and Jorah, both of whom know Dothraki customs, basing this whole operation on Drogo keeping his word. And for Illyrio in particular, this would be one of the first lessons on his rise from street braavo to magister: don't hand over your goods for promises. Words are wind.

& yet, he would have done just that if what you say is true, no? He would have handed both Targs & eggs over to Drogo on a promise to invade Westeros, right? 

To be clear I'm not disputing Drogo would have kept his word, I'm disputing what his word was. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

My guess is that Illyrio wants the Dothraki in Westeros to create a crisis that Aegon can then fix, becoming the hero of the realm. From there, it's a piece of cake for him to be proclaimed king. But regardless, a Dothraki invasion is part of his plan, as he explains to Varys. And all of this is happening before Dany hatched the eggs and Drogo died, and his promise (and khalasar) with him.

It certainly seems to be part of Illyrio's plan but that doesn't mean Drogo planned it or even knew about it. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

I also suspect that Illyrio wants Dany back in Pentos so he could take control of the dragons before they became too large and powerful, and probably kill her in the process. She is a wild card in his plans now because she is a rival to Aegon's crown.

Yeah, probably, he certainly would want control of the dragons, he may want to keep Dany to marry to Aegon now that Drogo is dead. Who knows. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

He could have heard some prophecy about the eggs? Now who's suggesting things that have no indication in the text? It must be a Targ who does it? He had Targs, two of them, and the eggs? He had everything he needed to hatch them himself, so again, why give all of this power to Drogo?

I thought you were suggesting Illyrio could hatch them himself. I see only two possibilites in regard to the eggs, either he thought they were just stone, never to hatch, a pretty gift for the bride OR he knows something of the prophecy & so sends them with Dany. I'm speculating. I'm not saying it's this or nothing, this is the facts or whatever. I'm just throwing ideas around. 

Evidenced by me saying "he could have" or "he thought they were stone". I think it was pretty clear I wasn't trying to present that as something I "knew" 

You are saying things that aren't indicated in the text & presenting them as facts that overrule any other suggestion. 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Sure, he rejects the idea of putting his son or Dany on the throne, because that was never the plan. Nor was Drogo going to go. Only Viserys, and Viserys is dead so the whole deal is off. Jorah speaks repeatedly about Viserys getting his army:

But read the quote you quoted: 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

"The khal will honor his promise in his own time."

". . . the Dothraki look on these things differently than we do in the west. I have told him as much, as Illyrio has told him, but your brother does not listen. the horselords are no traders. Viserys thinks he sold you and now he wants his price. Yet Khal Drogo would say he had you as a gift. He will give Viserys a gift in return . . . in his own time."

He will honor his promise, he isn't a trader, he didn't purchase something from Viserys - he was given a gift & will give one in return, in his own time. It doesn't say anything about what the gift will be. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, Jorah wants to get back to Westeros as well, so there is no reason for him to go along with all of this if he isn't 100 percent certain that Drogo is true to his word. There is another quote somewhere in Game where he says as much, but I can't find it right now.

And again, Jorah already has a plan to get back to Westeros & it has nothing to do with Viserys going. He is there to betray Dany to be able to get back to Westeros. 

And also again, I have not suggested one time Drogo wouldn't be true to his word. 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

If all Illyrio wanted for the V&D to die, then why not just kill them and bury them in his wine cellar? Why go through all this trouble, and give up three virtually priceless dragon eggs, to do what he can do in an instant with no muss, no fuss? Why would he even take them in at all if he just wants to kill them? What, exactly, is Illyrio "getting what he bargained for" in all of this?

Yeah, these were my questions also. I don't think he did just want them to die but I don't know what he did want with them. 

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52 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Yeah, I’m not saying Drogo intended to…if forced to choose I’d guess not, at least not as the individual act of conquering Westeros for Viserys by assigning him and army and sun commander. I think the only ways I could see it happening would be:

1) As a whole, with Drogo leading, both for Dany/Rhaegho and to honour the deal if there was one, though whether that would be for Viserys himself, Viserys as a ~ vassal of Drogo, or ultimately for Dany/Rhaego de facto and Viserys ~ de jure.

I agree, I think if they were going it was the entire khalasar led by Drogo. 

53 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

2) As a kind of profitable chevauchee-to-Great Heathen Army or Canute style raid, conquest, or raid with conquest possibilities. Ie, if Drogo could be convinced that the Poisoned Water could safely be overcome, he might do it for some kind of profit, ranging from a great raid of relatively untouched (from a raiding/booty pic) land abundant with assets to acquire to a further extension of his own domain/prestige. This could be led by Drogo himself or a sub-commander or sub-commanders depending upon how ambitious he is about it. I suppose Viserys could tag along in any of these but probably as a side-show puppet. 

Sure, definitely possible. He seems pretty unconcerned with Westeros & their plunder thought, until he wants revenge for the attempt on Dany & Rhaego's life. 

55 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

3) And lastly the closest I could see to what Illyrio suggested/Viserys wants, if either there was a deal or he wearied of Viserys bitching (but would not just have him silenced w/o committing a grave offense as per novels) or to kinda placate Dany, I could see him either choosing a particularly troublesome, ambitious or sub-par sub-commander/army or kinda put together a barrel of the baddest apples army and send them off with/~ under Viserys in a win-win ‘why not’ scenario where he either technically upholds his deal-if-there-is-one, or otherwise dealing with in-laws and at the same time either ridding himself of threats/lesser commanders or the less effective troops or adding to his conquests or bringing back lots of loot. In any of these cases I think he would welcome the better results but not be too bothered by any of the worst outcomes. 

Heh. Yeah I could see this. Viserys begs for the army & gets it & can't do anything with it. I would have loved for Viserys to try to take command of some of the Dothraki honestly. It would have been a good read. 

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, but that's only because Viserys chose to ride with them. And again, they would not be following Viserys. They follow Drogo, who tells them to cross the poison water, and if they don't they are killed a chopped up into little bits. Viserys is from the 7K. He knows where the lords and their castles are. But again (and again and again and again), none of this matters because all Illyrio needs is for the Dothraki to reach Westeros.

So don't you think if Illyrio needed Viserys to stay alive & not reveal his weakness long enough for him to get to Westeros he would have done more to make him stay in Pentos? 

It is no secret where the castles in the 7k are lol, Illyrio likely knows, he could probably have Varys get him a quite detailed map. Jorah knows. They don't need Viserys for this. 

If none of it matters why are you arguing it? Who, if not Illyrio, wants Viserys to show the Dothraki where the plunder is? 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes it does indicate Illyrio is stupid, incredibly so. Only a complete moron would hand over his valuables on a promise to be paid back later, especially when those valuables are being dragged halfway across the continent. This is one of the first lessons he would have learned on the streets of Pentos, otherwise he never would have risen to the station he occupies today.

But this is exactly what you are suggesting he did!

If he paid Drogo (Dany) & return was promised conquering of the 7k, or a crown for Viserys or just getting to Westeros or whatever, then he literally handed his valuables over on a promise to be paid back later. 

What I'm suggesting would be the opposite. I'm suggesting whatever Illyrio bargained for to broker the marriage, he already received & Viserys crown had naught to do with it. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

The decision is that Drogo will not cross the poison water, nor will Dany of Rhaego.

Agreed. Until the attempt on her life in which Drogo changes his mind. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

The plan was for Viserys.

This is Viserys's plan certainly. It's what Illyrio promised, though I assume Dany was to come with him as well. Viserys does tell her several times this is their ticket home. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

And the reason we don't hear this from Drogo's mouth beforehand is that he doesn't speak in a language that any POV can understand, except the word No. You are arguing that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, and that is always a wrong turn in any logical deduction.

I'm not, I'm saying the lack of evidence that Drogo intended on going to the 7k means it's a possibility he did not intend on going to the 7k lol. But it isn't just not from Drogo's mouth. We don't hear this promise corroborated by anyone. All we have are vague promises of gifts when Drogo feels the time is right. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

If things had worked out to the plan, Drogo would not have gone back on his word. There is no way either Illyrio or Jorah would commit to this plan just on a promise. Sorry.

Idk what you're saying, if what you say happened, happened then Illyrio did just this. Jorah could care less about the plan, he had his own plan. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Viserys is from the 7K, speaks the language, knows all the great houses. He knows far more about what's what and where the wealth is than any Dothraki. They would keep him just for that reason, but once again, this is all irrelevant to Illyrio. 

& Jorah knows much more than him probably. Who would keep him? The Dothraki? Because they don't. 

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On 4/15/2022 at 2:51 PM, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

It may have been only that Illyrio planned for D&V to die on the Dothraki sea & never thought those eggs would hatch, he just wanted them out of fAegon's way. 

This would fit with Varys having no problem actually sending out assassins when Robert ordered Daenerys killed. It would have been easy to lie about sending assassins all the way to the other side of the world if Varys and Illyrio wanted Daenerys kept alive.

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8 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

haha ikr? I see some parallels but hell if I ever know what they mean. 

Lol word, I like this, actually

18 hours ago, Seams said:

But I always thought that the burning of Theon's horse, Smiler, represented the end of Theon's life as he knew it. Now I wonder whether I was looking at it the wrong way. Could the burning of Smiler also represent a rebirth for Theon? 

I love this. Very cool

8 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

:lol: Hey don't let NN hear you! Wonder if she is still around the forums? 

Lol, she'd know it's in good humor.

I don't think so, haven't seen her in a minute

8 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Oh, I think so. I think if Viserys had turned out to be the dragon he claimed to be he would have found himself in a much better situation. He could have been "reborn" in the Dothraki sea, instead it was Dany. 

I mean, being reborn looks like it needs some sacrifice too, so no matter how great Viserys could be I don't think he could have actually replaced Danys story. 

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It's still baffling that someone can read some of the interactions Viserys has with the dothraki and still believe they would follow a single word that came out of his mouth, in fact as time passes even his own sister, who he had terrorized, understands that Viserys isn't getting anything from the Dothraki... 

 

Quote

Viserys stared at her, his lilac eyes incredulous. She had never defied him. Never fought back. Rage twisted his features. He would hurt her now, and badly, she knew that. Crack. The whip made a sound like thunder. The coil took Viserys around the throat and yanked him backward. He went sprawling in the grass, stunned and choking. The Dothraki riders hooted at him as he struggled to free himself. The one with the whip, young Jhogo, rasped a question. Dany did not understand his words, but by then Irri was there, and Ser Jorah, and the rest of her khas. “Jhogo asks if you would have him dead, Khaleesi,” Irri said. “No,” Dany replied. “No.” Jhogo understood that. One of the others barked out a comment, and the Dothraki laughed. Irri told her, “Quaro thinks you should take an ear to teach him respect.”

 

 

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“Tell them I do not wish him harmed,” Dany said. Irri repeated her words in Dothraki. Jhogo gave a pull on the whip, yanking Viserys around like a puppet on a string. He went sprawling again, freed from the leather embrace, a thin line of blood under his chin where the whip had cut deep. “I warned him what would happen, my lady,” Ser Jorah Mormont said. “I told him to stay on the ridge, as you commanded.” “I know you did,” Dany replied, watching Viserys. He lay on the ground, sucking in air noisily, red-faced and sobbing. He was a pitiful thing. He had always been a pitiful thing. Why had she never seen that before? There was a hollow place inside her where her fear had been.

 

 

Quote

“Take his horse,” Dany commanded Ser Jorah. Viserys gaped at her. He could not believe what he was hearing; nor could Dany quite believe what she was saying. Yet the words came. “Let my brother walk behind us back to the khalasar.” Among the Dothraki, the man who does not ride was no man at all, the lowest of the low, without honor or pride. “Let everyone see him as he is.”

 

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Dany followed on her silver, escorted by Ser Jorah Mormont and her brother Viserys, mounted once more. After the day in the grass when she had left him to walk back to the khalasar, the Dothraki had laughingly called him Khal Rhae Mhar, the Sorefoot King. Khal Drogo had offered him a place in a cart the next day, and Viserys had accepted. In his stubborn ignorance, he had not even known he was being mocked; the carts were for eunuchs, cripples, women giving birth, the very young and the very old. That won him yet another name: Khal Rhaggat, the Cart King. Her brother had thought it was the khal's way of apologizing for the wrong Dany had done him. She had begged Ser Jorah not to tell him the truth, lest he be shamed. The knight had replied that the king could well do with a bit of shame … yet he had done as she bid. It had taken much pleading, and all the pillow tricks Doreah had taught her, before Dany had been able to make Drogo relent and allow Viserys to rejoin them at the head of the column.

 

Quote

“My brother will never take back the Seven Kingdoms,” Dany said. She had known that for a long time, she realized. She had known it all her life. Only she had never let herself say the words, even in a whisper, but now she said them for Jorah Mormont and all the world to hear. Ser Jorah gave her a measuring look. “You think not.” “He could not lead an army even if my lord husband gave him one,” Dany said. “He has no coin and the only knight who follows him reviles him as less than a snake. The Dothraki make mock of his weakness. He will never take us home.”

 

If  even his own abused sister can see plainly that Viserys is a waste of time... Why would Drogo, who has no interest in his army crossing the poisoned waters and who openly despises Viserys, gift him a part of his own army? Why would the Dothraki who openly mock him follow him anywhere?

I'm sorry, it's too absurd to consider.

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21 hours ago, Seams said:

I have a hunch that Drogo and his stallion are reborn in the pyre; brought to life in a new way. It may be that Dany has somehow made Drogo immortal and he becomes the sun that rides a horse across the sky (much like Apollo in his chariot). But I always thought that the burning of Theon's horse, Smiler, represented the end of Theon's life as he knew it. Now I wonder whether I was looking at it the wrong way. Could the burning of Smiler also represent a rebirth for Theon? 

Really, nice stuff.

A dead khal, especially with Red is (according to lore) basically a god.

Quote

And what man could hope to rival Drogo, who had died with his hair uncut and rode now through the night lands, the stars his khalasar?

Reek, is uh, not a god. But there's no doubt that Reek was born when Smiler rode with the stars. 

I wonder how Theon will be reborn, whether is has to do with the horse house(s?) in bed with Bolton/Dustin

What happened to Dancer?

10 hours ago, Seams said:

When Dany becomes a dragon rider, she looks at the eye of Drogon and describes it as looking "molten." This could represent Dany seizing her own crown, comparable to the molten gold that was Drogo's "gift" to Viserys.

Ugh! Good stuff

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15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I love this. Very cool

Very cool. Seams always amazes me. 

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol, she'd know it's in good humor.

I don't think so, haven't seen her in a minute

haha yeah she would. I was gone for a bit but haven't seen her either. 

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I mean, being reborn looks like it needs some sacrifice too, so no matter how great Viserys could be I don't think he could have actually replaced Danys story. 

For sure, no he never could replace Dany. 

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1 hour ago, sifth said:

I'm pretty sure the deal was real. I recall one of the members of the Golden Company mentioning that they were suppose to join forces with the Dothraki before heading to Westeros.

Yeah, they did. I'm not questioning whether or not Illyrio told people this, we know he did. I'm questioning whether or not Drogo actually promised it. 

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